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Author Topic: Opinions on Shining Spears  (Read 1400 times)

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Offline magenb

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Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2017, 05:55:29 PM »

Regarding the Spears, I think it's safe to say that they're unfair.  They eclipse the rest of the Aeldari melee units already.

They also cost more than any other Aeldari melee unit. Spears are good, but cost a fair chunk of points, they are basically easier to kill than primaris marines when using volume troop fire. They are meh in CC if they don't kill the unit.


Out of the 13 Ynnari lists that have finished in the top 3 spots in the ITC season events so far, not one of them has taken Spears, so I would kind of be thankful your local group isn't taking the most optimal options lol.

Offline The Mattler

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Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 11:36:39 PM »
They only eclipse Craftworld melee units, which is not hard to do at all, as they aren't particularly outstanding to start with. Ynnari making units unbalanced is also a problem of Ynnari rules, not the units. I personally dream of the day when GW finally decides to ditch this whole silly Ynnari thing altogether. The very concept is broken at its core - one and the same unit with one and the same cost cannot be balanced both with Ynnari rules and without them.

Spears imo will be right at 35-36 pts per model. 40 pts per model will likely kill them as a competitive option - Terminators are better protected, yet they don't work at that cost.
They also cost more than any other Aeldari melee unit. Spears are good, but cost a fair chunk of points, they are basically easier to kill than primaris marines when using volume troop fire. They are meh in CC if they don't kill the unit.

Out of the 13 Ynnari lists that have finished in the top 3 spots in the ITC season events so far, not one of them has taken Spears, so I would kind of be thankful your local group isn't taking the most optimal options lol.
*cracks knuckles*

Spears are the answer to the question, "What do you get when you take a Banshee, then double its movement (+ Fly!), strength, wounds,and damage, then give it +1 T/Sv, -1 AP, an invulnerable save against shooting, and some crazy awesome guns, all for less than 2.5x the cost?"  The Spear also trades off Acrobatic and the Banshee Mask for the Saim-Hann attribute, Ride the Wind, and the Warriors of the Raging Winds Strategem.  Now, let's take a look at some points per wound numbers, shall we? :)

5HBEE 5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5StScESC 5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw

GEQMEQTEQBEQLVEQMVEQHVEQ
5HBEE (melee)17.0029.3829.6128.2536.7236.7252.46
5StScESC (melee)15.9327.1727.2829.7828.2043.4151.49
Spear (shooting)16.4127.9029.8924.6226.1632.1938.05
Spear (melee)27.9034.8826.1617.4423.2534.8834.88
Spear (combined)10.3315.5013.9510.2112.3116.7418.20

With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone.  I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads. Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn.  If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...

What you do is fly them up behind some LOS blocking terrain in the midfield, using other units to ward off deep strike.  On the next turn, the slaughter begins.  Spears haven't been seeing much play in Ynnari lists because up until recently they could use the shooting Soulbursts on multiple Reaper squads.  Now that Soulburst is limited to one of each action per turn, the Spears should see play.  A squad of Ynnari Spears can easily wipe out at least two enemy squads or vehicles per turn without any help.  I agree that the Soulburst mechanic cannot be balanced.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2017, 02:38:52 AM »
In the Renegade Open which was a big GT took place before the Chapter Approved released, the armies that went 5-1 or better (Eldar highlighted) as far as I know:

Imperium Soup (6-0) by Aleong
Guilliman with Stormravens by Northington
Mass cultists + Death Guard + Magnus by Root
Chaos Soup with cultists and Mortarion by Henly
Foot Imperial Guard with 6 Primaris Psykers, 4 Astropaths, Celestine, 4 Taurox PRime, lots of mortars by Gonyo
Chaos (unknown composition) by Barkley
Ynnari by Pampreen
IG with Grey Knights and Celestine by Sansone
Craftworld Eldar (Alaitoc) with no Ynnari by Schuchman

Pampreen's Ynnari did not use Shining Spears. Schuchman's Craftworld Eldar (without Ynnari) DID use a big and expensive unit of Shining Spears. He also had a lot of dark reapers and a lot of Rangers. At least from this view, it seems like Shining Spears are actually more used in regular craftworld eldar detachments than in Ynnari detachments.

Quote from: Pampreen's List

Pampreen's list included a Ynnari detachment with:

Yvraine
Spiritseer
2x5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
8 Shadow Specters (this was pre-nerf)
2x5 Swooping Hawks
10 Dark Reapers

And an Alaitoc detachment with:
Farseer
Spiritseer
3x5 Rangers
3 Wave Serpents

Interestingly, since most of the Ynnari Eldar also had the Alaitoc keyword, the Wraithguard and Dark Reapers could embark in the Wave Serpents. Also, Ynnead's Will doesn't require the target transport to be Ynnari, just Aeldari, so Yvraine got by just fine. This allowed the Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc Craftworld trait even if their contents couldn't.

So, no shining spears there in the most successful Ynnari list. What about the other Aeldari list that went 5-1, Schuchman's Craftworld Eldar with no Ynnari?

Quote from: Schuchman's List:
Battalion
Farseer and Warlock Skyrunner
3x5 Rangers
2x5 Swooping Hawks
8 Shining Spears (!!!)
5 Howling Banshees (!!!)
9 Shadow Spectres
Wave Serpent

Battalion
2 Spiriseers
3x5 Rangers

Spearhead
2 Spiritseers
9 Dark Reapers
2x3 Dark Reapers

My impression is that the Wave Serpent carried Banshees and Spiritseers, but it could also have sheltered 12 Dark Reapers from Alpha Strike instead.

So Pampreen's Ynnari did not use Shining Spears. Schuchman's Craftworld Eldar (without Ynnari) DID use a big and expensive unit of Shining Spears. In fact, he ALSO ran a unit of Howling Banshees!

At least from this view, it seems like Shining Spears are actually highly useful in Craftworld Eldar armies, or at least you can make a winning army containing them--and Banshees! And the successful Ynnari army was one with no Shining Spears: what a twist! With Shadow Spectres being much worse now, i think we'll see a change to armies holding them, maybe creating more room for the close-up shooting Shining spears are good at. Since the Renegade Open GT happened right on the heels of the huge Ynnari nerf, I'm not sure if it applied.


EDIT: as an aside, it looks like Barton's List from Heat 2 GT included 40 (!!!) Dark Reapers
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 04:45:30 PM by Blazinghand »
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