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EldarOnline => Eldar => Topic started by: AngelFist on December 2, 2017, 07:35:49 AM

Title: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: AngelFist on December 2, 2017, 07:35:49 AM
I have tried out my little Squad of five after they gathered a lot of dust over the last editions.
My conclusion after some games (i proxied each game more till i ran with 15) is that they are hilariously undercosted.
They are very fast, pretty tough and hit like a truck.
The best thing is, they can kill GEQ, MEQ, TEQ and Vehicles pretty efficient and are able to charge (kill) fliers on top of that.
Basically you get a swiss army knife with an invuln vs shooting. If you add diverse stratagems it gets pretty overpowered fast.
Do i miss something?
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Gildaheir on December 2, 2017, 12:49:34 PM
Totally agreed. I run 6x with an exarch (star lance). They're fantastic, priced really nicely, and always surprise my opponents with just how much firepower they actually generate. Very productive and versatile unit for sure.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Cavalier on December 2, 2017, 01:37:49 PM
Are you guys running them Saim-Hann? Or something else. Been debating if they are worth it, without Saim-Hann traits
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: AngelFist on December 2, 2017, 02:17:19 PM
Saim-Hann trait does not much for them (you want to be 6" or closer to get the most out of shooting), but the stratagem is really powerful.
But even as non Saim-Hann they are really solid.
Their speed coupled with their effectiveness against any target makes them really strong.
For the price of two marines, you get two marines with a speed upgrade, a additional heavy ranged weapon fired as assault weapon, a additional close combat weapon (a beefed up powerweapon),fly and on top of that a invuln save vs shooting. Crazy.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Fenris on December 2, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
I've said Shining Spears are one of the best units in our codex, but that's not really correct, shining spears is THE best unit in the codex.

Better profiles than bolters at an effective range of 28", then they can charge with essentially powerfists. They are also harder to kill than primarines.


Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: DuckWake on December 2, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
For the price of two marines

Don't forget that you have to pay for the twin shuriken catapults!
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Partninja on December 2, 2017, 04:29:09 PM
Are you guys running them Saim-Hann? Or something else. Been debating if they are worth it, without Saim-Hann traits

The Saim-hann trait isn't really needed as you should be 6" away before you assault anyway. I usually have a warlock with Quicken to hurl them across the table. They work great with Alaitoc (to help protect them if you go second), Ulthwe (multiple would models love FnP) and Biel-tan (reroll those shurikens or is the charge+reroll on hits strat).
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: SeekingOne on December 2, 2017, 05:23:33 PM
They have a cost of 2.3 marines. They are very good as Saim-Hann, not so much as anything else - it's the Saim-Hann stratagem that makes them devastating.

Per their base stats and cost, they are a very solid highly efficient unit, worthy of a place in a highly competitive list. Thing is though that they have to get really close to the enemy, and being close to the enemy is highly detrimental for one's life expectancy. They can be killed fairly easily with any multi-D weapon, which are plentiful in any properly optimised list. I've been proxying a unit of 6 in my games lately (my actual spears are still awaiting their turn to get painted), and in most of my games they assault and kill something on turn 1, then die in my opponent's next shooting phase.

There's one thing that seems to make them pretty OP though, and that thing is a warlock with Protect.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Gildaheir on December 3, 2017, 02:48:21 PM
I have run them in Alaitoc and been plenty happy. Quicken and Protect are fantastic for them. Frankly, with Quicken, I don't see much reason to run them Saim Hann. Getting them to combat is no problem. Alaitoc is nice if they're being shot top of turn one. Combo with the -1 stratagem and the enemy will have to waste an inordinate quantity of firepower to drag them down.  I find that I can reliably kill or neuter a large chaff unit with the shuriken fire and use the lances + melee to drop a vehicle, monster, or multi wound unit in one go. And they hold up surprisingly well the next turn thanks to their 4++ vs shooting.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: magenb on December 3, 2017, 06:44:37 PM
People are starting to wake up on how good spears are, so they are now taking a lot more fire.

Saim-Hann... if you are building a SH army then yeah go for it. If you want to add Spears to your list, don't bother making a separate SH detachment for them. they really don't need it.

8th edition is brutal, the sheer scale of firepower now means any squad can be taken out in a single round. That said, you have to focus a significant amount of it to remove spears.

8th is really feeling a lot more like chess now, where you are baiting people into taking pieces.

Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: TheEldarGuy on December 3, 2017, 07:25:08 PM
Long time Shining Spears user.

I've always included at least 3 (even back when 2 and the Exarch cost 210points!), now I take 5 with me wherever I go.

Yes, they smack hard and fast, but I like to keep them as my rapid response team. When those pesky deepstrikers arrive (usually in the form of Tau Battlesuits) or I need to separate an enemy force, then they get to lay on the smack!

I've always used them as the Heavy Cavalry option, and as such kept them in position.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Blazinghand on December 4, 2017, 05:54:37 PM
I think even without the Saim-Hann trait, Shining Spears can be good, since you often want to get pretty close anyways. I haven't run them since the Codex dropped, but when I finish the set I am working on now, I'll give them a try. I wonder of a unit of 3 (Exarch with Star Lance) is the best way to go, since a smaller unit like that can more easily hide behind LoS blocking terrain and have a better ratio of Exarchs to Aspect Warriors (since the Exarch costs the same or only slight more and is like at least 50% better).
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Sarkrim on December 4, 2017, 06:33:08 PM
I've been using 2 units of 4, sadly only an exarch in 1 group as I only have one, in the last few games and they've haven't disappointed at all. I'm pretty sure my use of them have been more than suboptimal, but so far people have seriously underestimated how dangerous they can be.

I feel that a unit of 3 is too small to get enough damage out of them. 5 or more and you're getting into unwieldy territory, but 4 seems to still be a small enough unit that they can hide if needed and they deliver enough punch.

Also quicken and their insane mobility will catch opponents off guard as the spears suddenly show up in a place they did not expect them to be in and throw a massive wrench in their plans.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Scorn on December 5, 2017, 12:52:10 AM
I've used Shining Spears a few times.  Sometimes I've overestimated their durability and had them wipe one enemy unit just to get torched themselves in turn.  I've found a squad of four including Exarch to be just right not too much of an investment, still dangerous, not a high priority target.

If you get an opportune Quicken off on them they are good character assassins as well; able to move far enough and with Fly that they can easily end up closest to an enemy character.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: haunt on December 5, 2017, 11:11:58 PM
It just means that this is the era of the aeldari jetbikes ruling the field, lol.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Battle Master Lomandalis on December 5, 2017, 11:22:05 PM
It just means that this is the era of the aeldari jetbikes ruling the field, lol.
Hasn't it been that era for a while now?
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: haunt on December 7, 2017, 09:21:37 AM
Got a point there, this just makes melee bikes even as good too.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: SeekingOne on December 7, 2017, 01:36:32 PM
Hasn't it been that era for a while now?
Purely in terms of killing power, Shining Spears currently are WAY better than scatter-bikes ever were in 7th. Back in 7th there were lots of units that just laughed at scatter lasers: Riptides, Dreadknights, Castellan Robots, Invisible grav-Centurions, jinking Ravenwing bikers, 2++ or 3++ rerolling 1s Tzeenchites, etc. Nowadays, I haven't yet seen or heard of a unit that a decent squad of Spears wouldn't cut right through (provided they get to attack first).

Yet at the same time Spears are a much more 'honest' unit than 7th edition scatter-bikes - they don't get to hide after attacking and they go straight into the enemy's face, which makes them much more killable. They are also not Troops. Which is probably why all my regular opponents whine and moan about Dark Reapers but seem ok with my Shining Spears. Come to think of it, psychology has a huge effect on the people's perception of game balance.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: The Mattler on December 8, 2017, 08:05:08 PM
Come to think of it, psychology has a huge effect on the people's perception of game balance.
That why I keep saying that psychology in 40k is just exploiting your opponent's calculation failure.

Regarding the Spears, I think it's safe to say that they're unfair.  They eclipse the rest of the Aeldari melee units already, and they're monsters in Ynnari detachments.  Reapers get Yvraine's Word of the Phoenix, and the Spears make their own when they charge.  It's hard not to get extra actions with them.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: SeekingOne on December 10, 2017, 09:07:55 AM
They only eclipse Craftworld melee units, which is not hard to do at all, as they aren't particularly outstanding to start with. Ynnari making units unbalanced is also a problem of Ynnari rules, not the units. I personally dream of the day when GW finally decides to ditch this whole silly Ynnari thing altogether. The very concept is broken at its core - one and the same unit with one and the same cost cannot be balanced both with Ynnari rules and without them.

Spears imo will be right at 35-36 pts per model. 40 pts per model will likely kill them as a competitive option - Terminators are better protected, yet they don't work at that cost.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: magenb on December 10, 2017, 05:55:29 PM

Regarding the Spears, I think it's safe to say that they're unfair.  They eclipse the rest of the Aeldari melee units already.

They also cost more than any other Aeldari melee unit. Spears are good, but cost a fair chunk of points, they are basically easier to kill than primaris marines when using volume troop fire. They are meh in CC if they don't kill the unit.


Out of the 13 Ynnari lists that have finished in the top 3 spots in the ITC season events so far, not one of them has taken Spears, so I would kind of be thankful your local group isn't taking the most optimal options lol.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: The Mattler on December 10, 2017, 11:36:39 PM
They only eclipse Craftworld melee units, which is not hard to do at all, as they aren't particularly outstanding to start with. Ynnari making units unbalanced is also a problem of Ynnari rules, not the units. I personally dream of the day when GW finally decides to ditch this whole silly Ynnari thing altogether. The very concept is broken at its core - one and the same unit with one and the same cost cannot be balanced both with Ynnari rules and without them.

Spears imo will be right at 35-36 pts per model. 40 pts per model will likely kill them as a competitive option - Terminators are better protected, yet they don't work at that cost.
They also cost more than any other Aeldari melee unit. Spears are good, but cost a fair chunk of points, they are basically easier to kill than primaris marines when using volume troop fire. They are meh in CC if they don't kill the unit.

Out of the 13 Ynnari lists that have finished in the top 3 spots in the ITC season events so far, not one of them has taken Spears, so I would kind of be thankful your local group isn't taking the most optimal options lol.
*cracks knuckles*

Spears are the answer to the question, "What do you get when you take a Banshee, then double its movement (+ Fly!), strength, wounds,and damage, then give it +1 T/Sv, -1 AP, an invulnerable save against shooting, and some crazy awesome guns, all for less than 2.5x the cost?"  The Spear also trades off Acrobatic and the Banshee Mask for the Saim-Hann attribute, Ride the Wind, and the Warriors of the Raging Winds Strategem.  Now, let's take a look at some points per wound numbers, shall we? :)

5HBEE 5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5StScESC 5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw

GEQMEQTEQBEQLVEQMVEQHVEQ
5HBEE (melee)17.0029.3829.6128.2536.7236.7252.46
5StScESC (melee)15.9327.1727.2829.7828.2043.4151.49
Spear (shooting)16.4127.9029.8924.6226.1632.1938.05
Spear (melee)27.9034.8826.1617.4423.2534.8834.88
Spear (combined)10.3315.5013.9510.2112.3116.7418.20

With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone.  I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads. Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn.  If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...

What you do is fly them up behind some LOS blocking terrain in the midfield, using other units to ward off deep strike.  On the next turn, the slaughter begins.  Spears haven't been seeing much play in Ynnari lists because up until recently they could use the shooting Soulbursts on multiple Reaper squads.  Now that Soulburst is limited to one of each action per turn, the Spears should see play.  A squad of Ynnari Spears can easily wipe out at least two enemy squads or vehicles per turn without any help.  I agree that the Soulburst mechanic cannot be balanced.
Title: Re: Opinions on Shining Spears
Post by: Blazinghand on December 11, 2017, 02:38:52 AM
In the Renegade Open which was a big GT took place before the Chapter Approved released, the armies that went 5-1 or better (Eldar highlighted) as far as I know:

Imperium Soup (6-0) by Aleong
Guilliman with Stormravens by Northington
Mass cultists + Death Guard + Magnus by Root
Chaos Soup with cultists and Mortarion by Henly
Foot Imperial Guard with 6 Primaris Psykers, 4 Astropaths, Celestine, 4 Taurox PRime, lots of mortars by Gonyo
Chaos (unknown composition) by Barkley
Ynnari by Pampreen
IG with Grey Knights and Celestine by Sansone
Craftworld Eldar (Alaitoc) with no Ynnari by Schuchman

Pampreen's Ynnari did not use Shining Spears. Schuchman's Craftworld Eldar (without Ynnari) DID use a big and expensive unit of Shining Spears. He also had a lot of dark reapers and a lot of Rangers. At least from this view, it seems like Shining Spears are actually more used in regular craftworld eldar detachments than in Ynnari detachments.

Quote from: Pampreen's List

Pampreen's list included a Ynnari detachment with:

Yvraine
Spiritseer
2x5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
8 Shadow Specters (this was pre-nerf)
2x5 Swooping Hawks
10 Dark Reapers

And an Alaitoc detachment with:
Farseer
Spiritseer
3x5 Rangers
3 Wave Serpents

Interestingly, since most of the Ynnari Eldar also had the Alaitoc keyword, the Wraithguard and Dark Reapers could embark in the Wave Serpents. Also, Ynnead's Will doesn't require the target transport to be Ynnari, just Aeldari, so Yvraine got by just fine. This allowed the Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc Craftworld trait even if their contents couldn't.

So, no shining spears there in the most successful Ynnari list. What about the other Aeldari list that went 5-1, Schuchman's Craftworld Eldar with no Ynnari?

Quote from: Schuchman's List:
Battalion
Farseer and Warlock Skyrunner
3x5 Rangers
2x5 Swooping Hawks
8 Shining Spears (!!!)
5 Howling Banshees (!!!)
9 Shadow Spectres
Wave Serpent

Battalion
2 Spiriseers
3x5 Rangers

Spearhead
2 Spiritseers
9 Dark Reapers
2x3 Dark Reapers

My impression is that the Wave Serpent carried Banshees and Spiritseers, but it could also have sheltered 12 Dark Reapers from Alpha Strike instead.

So Pampreen's Ynnari did not use Shining Spears. Schuchman's Craftworld Eldar (without Ynnari) DID use a big and expensive unit of Shining Spears. In fact, he ALSO ran a unit of Howling Banshees!

At least from this view, it seems like Shining Spears are actually highly useful in Craftworld Eldar armies, or at least you can make a winning army containing them--and Banshees! And the successful Ynnari army was one with no Shining Spears: what a twist! With Shadow Spectres being much worse now, i think we'll see a change to armies holding them, maybe creating more room for the close-up shooting Shining spears are good at. Since the Renegade Open GT happened right on the heels of the huge Ynnari nerf, I'm not sure if it applied.


EDIT: as an aside, it looks like Barton's List from Heat 2 GT included 40 (!!!) Dark Reapers