Topic: "Orksperiment" - Green Tide; Horde vs Balanced

[Gutstikk]

Right lads, 'ere we go!

There's a bit of a dispute about how powerful orks are now with the 6-point boy, and it ain't just on these boards - I'm sure you've seen all the little 'umies cryin' about how 'ard our new codex is to beat, mostly because a single Ork boy costs so much less than they used to!

So, I'm settin' out to see if this is the truth, or just a bunch of 'umies cryin cause we're so good at clompin' them.

Here's the rules if ya want in:

1) Make a post in this thread. This is your post, and your place to post stuff. Don't go throwin posts all over this thread cause it won't be needed. If you have somethin new to add just use the modify button to do it in your own post. Do all your introducin at the start of yer post.

2) Your post needs two army lists - one is a green tide with as many points spent on boys as possible, the other with a more balanced ork list built to your personal preferences. The points total for both lists should be the same, but how much you wanna field is up to you.

3) In the green tide list don't go spending points on anything other than Troops Choices and single-model HQ's until you've spent all the points you can on those selections, but build the list so you think it's still functional. Here's an example:

30boys,nob+power claw+3 rokkits    x6
cheap HQ
round about 1500pts

4) In the other list, just build a balanced take-all-comers style army, whatever that means for you. If these vary greatly from player to player, that's excellent, because it means a bunch of different test conditions.

5) After you've got your lists, play a bunch of games with both. Record the stats for each mission you play as follows:

Army list:   Enemy:   Mission:   W/L/D:   Margin of Victory in Points:   

If you can, get a repeat of the mission and opponent using the other list as well, to get the closest match on performance.

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If I can get a few of you to jump in it'd be great. I wanna see just how overpowered an Ork Boy is for the cost, compared to the other stuff we've got, so that people can't say stuff about how we only win cause we get so much for so little. I think we're off to an uphill battle...

For my part, my info will go into this post here, as well as updates, when available, which'll be posted below:

Army list section:
List 1: Swamp 'em [true Green Tide] - 1000pts

  55: Weirdboy
250: 30 slugga boyz, 3 rokkitz [Nob with PK/Bosspole]
180: 20 Shootas, 2 rokkits, Nob w/ PK/Bosspole
180: 20 Shootas, 2 rokkits, Nob w/ PK/Bosspole
180: 20 Shootas, 2 rokkits, Nob w/ PK/Bosspole
155: 20 Shootas, 2 rokkits, Nob, Bosspole
Total points: 1000, Total models: 111
 
List 2: More Dakka [Mixed Green Tide] - 1000pts
  85: KFF Mek
  95: SAG Mek
  90: 6 Lootas
  40: 10 Grots + Slaver
120: 20 Shootas
180: 20 Shootas, 2 Rokkits, Nob w/ PK/Bosspole
180: 20 Shootas, 2 Rokkits, Nob w/ PK/Bosspole
160: 10 Stormboyz, Nob, PK/Bosspole
  50: 2 Lobbas
Total Points: 1000, Total Models: 94

Results section:
Green Tide [just troops]:
Enemy:                  Mission:               W/L/D:                  Margin:     
1000pts Iyanden     Cleanse/Gamma    Win, Solid Victory    ~350pts   

High Toughness/save is painful! Also, Eldrad at 1k is a nightmare; practically impossible to take down. Wraithlords are cake though, they are absolutely mauled by the boys. Careful placement of shootas on a long frontage mitigates enemy maneuverability somewhat and makes the boys less likely to gimp themselves.

Green Tide [balanced]:
Enemy:                  Mission:               W/L/D:                  Margin:     

[Grotsnik]

Er' We Go.......

List 1- Green and Red makes Em' dead

 85- Big Mek w/ KFF
 95- 7 Kommandos w/1 rokkit + nob w/bosspole
 95- 7 Kommandos w/1 rokkit + nob w/bosspole
 95- 7 Kommandos w/1 rokkit + nob w/bosspole
120- 30 grots + 3 slavers
210- 25 orks w/2 rokkits + nob w/PK/bosspole
210- 25 orks w/2 rokkits + nob w/PK/bosspole
210- 25 orks w/2 rokkits + nob w/PK/bosspole
210- 25 orks w/2 rokkits + nob w/PK/bosspole
175- 25 orks w/2 B.S. + nob w/bosspole(shootas)
1495 pts. models 180
and with good placement a healthy 5++ for most of the group

List 2- Balanced

155- Warboss w/ Bike,PK,bosspole,eavyarmor, cybork body, attack squig
105- Big Mek w/ SAG, cybork body
120- 8 Lootas
330- 5 Nobz + Painboy w/eavy armor/2 PK/Bikes
210- 25 orks w/2 rokkits + nob w/PK/bosspole
210- 25 orks w/2 rokkits + nob w/PK/bosspole
148- 9 stormboyz + nob/PK/bosspole
 70- 2 deffkopers
115- 3 Killerkanz w/BS
 35- Warbuggy w/twin rokkits

1498 pts. models 89

Krumpin Sektion

Results section:
Green Tide [just troops]:
Enemy:       Mission:       W/L/D:     Margin:      Notes:

Green Tide [balanced]:
Enemy:       Mission:       W/L/D:     Margin:      Notes:

[Gyroscopic]

armies:
SpaceMarine v Orks

Orks
1xWierdboy
5x30 slugga boyz, power claw nob, 3 rokkits
1x25 slugga boyz, power claw nob, 3 rokkits

Space marines
1xJump pack chaplain
1x5 terminators, 2 assault cannons
1xVennerable dreadnaught, extra armour, smokelaunchers
1x5 marines, lascannon
1x5 marines, plasma cannon
2x5 marines, missile launcher
1xLand speeder, multi melta
1x7 Assault marines, vet with power fist
1xWhirlwind
1xVindicator
1xPredator destructor, HB sponsons

set up:
space marines refuse a flank, orks have to utilise most of the 12"x64" deployment zone


results:
Orks killed: 1217 pts
Space marines killed: 860 pts
difference: 357 pts
result: ork solid victory

conclusions:
-land speeders with multimeltas arnt great against ork swam armies, if they can shoot, the orks will be shooting back
-pie plates hurt mass orks A LOT
-the removal of the choppa rule really reduces the ork effectiveness against SMs.
-waaaagh! special rule and the chance to get multiple of these results with madboyz is invaluble
-mass rokkits can and do hurt. only multiple armour 14 tanks or some of those invincible falcons/tau tanks have a chance of really escaping unhurt.
-the size of the ork mobs is their greatest asset rather than the effectivness of the troops.
-against lower save/toughness/leadership armies, i think mass orks would work alot better as they have the attacks to wipe out big units but they end up wasting the mass attacks for a small payback

improvements
-against armies with template weapons, the number of orks is just givng away free points to each blast. less but better orks might be the way forward.
-need more disruption to static firepower armies. maybe kommandos or stormboys to prevent 3-4 turns of free shooting
should be able to test out a non-green tidal wave of orks list some time in the week against the same SM list and possibly a heavy infantry guard list.

[OD from TV]

I'm down for an Orksperiment.

Waaaggaa! List
125 Boss with PK, Attack Squig, Armor, Bosspole, Cybork, Eavy Armor
125 Boss with PK, Attack Squig, Armor, Bosspole, Cybork, Eavy Armor
240 30 Shoota Boyz; 2 Rokkits Nob with PK and Bosspole
180 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK and Bosspole
180 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK and Bosspole
175 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK
175 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK
160 12 Ard Boyz Nob with PK and Bosspole
45 Trukk with Red Paint and Reinforced Ram
97 3 Kannons + Slaver 6 extra Grot Crew 3 Ammo Runts
-----
1502

Da Uvver Boyz
145 Biker Boss, Pk, Bosspole, Attack Squig
225 15 Lootas
180 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK and Bosspole
180 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK and Bosspole
180 20 Slugga Boyz; 2 Rokkits, Nob with PK and Bosspole
235 8 Warbikers, Nob w/PK
45 Deffkopta with Twin Rokkits
45 Deffkopta with Twin Rokkits
135 Looted Wagon with Boomgun, 2 Big Shootas, Red Paint, Ard Case, Grot Riggers
130 Looted Wagon with Boomgun, 2 Big Shootas, Red Paint, Ard Case
-----
1500

Peace
~OD

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Results section:
Green Tide [just troops]: 122 Boyz +2 Bosses
Enemy: Nids
Mission: Standard Meat Grinder, no objectives
W/L/D: Well I got creamed.  Well to be more honest in 4 turns he completely wiped out my whole army.
Margin: I took out 1 Carnifex and several Hormagaunts (but unsuccessful in completely killing 1 unit of Gaunts)
Notes: The Kannons were my most successful unit.
Before anyalising the game let me just say that my rolling in this game was incredibly bad and my opponent admitted that he won due to my incredibly bad luck.  Also this is the first battlerep I've written, so forgive me if its not up to snuff.
Turn 1 (trouble begins)
I get the first turn and start to advance the boyz forward.  The Kannons have a line of site to a Carni with twin Stranglers.  I open up and to my suprise they not only hit but they wound him twice.
His turn, well he slams a unit of Sluggas (one of the bosses is with this unit mind you) with a Str 8 Pie Plate.  The pain is pretty bad.  The Trukk (Ard Boyz still inside) gets hit by a Zoanthrope Warp Blast which sends them Kareening...right into the same unit of Sluggas.  Guess what number was rolled on the D6 for explosion radius?  A 6.  Despite the low strength blast it takes the poor Sluggas down to 8 boyz.  The boss screams for order, but they begin to fall back anyway.  The Ard Boyz who were inside have slightly better luck at surviving the explosion, but none the less are down to 8 men.  His Hormagaunts fleet, two units roll 6's for their fleet, both of them on my left flank, where I have 2 units of Sluggas and my other boss.  Both units get assaulted.  The boyz put up a fight, as do the gaunts, the conflict is unresolved though.

Turn 2
The Kannons open up again, and I think for the first time that maybe I should have been using Artilery all these years instead of my looted Russ and Battlewagons.  Each Hit, Each Wounded, but IT JUST WON'T DIE!  The Carni made its saves.  Seeing my the Orks on the left getting the stuffing kicked out of them I Waaagghed to try and get the Ard boyz which were nearby to assist, they didn't make it.  On the right flank my last unit of Sluggas and Shootas were running to try and get closer to the Carnifexs that were still out there.
My opponent flew his tyrant out to assist the Hormagaunts and started Hacking away at the boyz.  Long story short, my boss now lives in a Tyrant's gut.  The other unit of Gaunts ate my boyz as well.  The Sluggas on the right got hit by a Warp Blast and a Strangler, but remained courageus (I don't think they knew that the bosses were dead).
Turn 3
The Kannons again try to knock out that blasted Strangler Fex, they knocked him down to 1 Wound.  The Shootas shot up one of the 2 CC fex's on my right flank, they didn't paste him, but they took him down to 1 wound.  The Shootas assault that Carni, while the last unit of Sluggas attack the unscathed Carnifex and the Ard Boyz go for the Hormagaunts.  The Shootas take out the Carnifex and Consolodate into the Sluggas match against the other Carni, meanwhile the Ard boyz spit at the Gaunts instead of hitting them with their choppas.  Not a single hit.  My opponent said he'd give me a re-roll on that one, after all how often do Orks attack and not hit a SINGLE thing.  Well, I guess the infinite improbability matrix was tearing me a new one today.  28 dice not a single 4+.  The Ardboyz die a horrible horrible death.  I think the Hormagaunts were making balloon animals with their intestines.
His shooting fex joins the assault on the last of my boyz, as does the Zoanthrope (who knew those things had toxic miasma?!)  The Sluggas get brought down to 10 and loose their LD test, despite the bosspole.  The Hormagaunts with their unholy speed (another Fleet of 6) assault the Kannons.  The Grots don't put up much of a fight.  Getting a massacre the Gaunts turn around and stare at their Carnifex's which are surrounded by whats left of the Green Horde.
Turn 4
All I have left is the Shootas who are facing 2 Carnifexs.  One is a CC monster of Stabbing doom (2 Scyth Talons) the other a Shooty fex with only 1 Wound left, Waagh we can do it right... right...
No.  They really can't.  They stay stuck in the combat while the Hormagaunts move in for the kill.  Another amazing 6" fleet.  They make it to the combat and swallow the last of the shootas whole.

Afterthoughts...
Well my luck with trukks remains the same in this dex, I won't be using them again anytime soon.  Any fast attack unit would have been a godsend against this list, if I had a unit of bikes or Koptas I would have turbo-ed them into an assault against the Zenothrope or the Strangler fex.  Even a unit of Kommandos with Snikrot could have made this list more effective.

All this being said though my opponent admitted that the game was totally due to my bad dice rolling.  6's on Ld, but 1's on shooting, assault, and saving throws.  I think I'd like to give this list another go, simply because my rolls were so bad that this game can't really be a viable test of the army.

Peace
~OD

Green Tide [balanced]:
Enemy:       Mission:       W/L/D:     Margin:      Notes:

[Gutstikk]

Okay, looks like the principal testers are myself, Grotsnik, Gyroscopic, and OD from TV. Since mostly this will be a thread where updates are edited in, remember to check back periodically to see what others are finding. If you want to discuss findings it'll be all right as I don't think too many more are gonna jump in on this for the time being, but I still want to see some results.

I have to admit that my first match rather surprised me in how effective the green tide actually was. I never felt entirely safe, and didn't realize I had taken the game until points were totalled, and had to really think every move out. Things could have dried up for me on several turns. It will be interesting if this early start is an actual indicator of how it will perform from here on vs other opponents. It helped that I ounumbered him almost 7:1.