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Author Topic: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion  (Read 9729 times)

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Offline NightMoor

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 7, 2011, 04:12:16 PM »
So by that logic Space Marines should have an additional attack since they are equipped with pistols?

Hmm, this is interesting since I've always understood this to be the case. At least, it appears a lot of SM players I've faced have been playing it this way. Are you 100% sure? If it's the case then I've been getting somewhat gipped by Marine opponents...
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Offline Benis

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 7, 2011, 05:11:49 PM »
Are you sure they aren't Space Wolves or Chaos Space Marines, both which are specifically equipped with pistol, gun and close combat weapon?

The rule does not state that models are always equipped with a close combat weapon, it does not state that guns and other shooting weapons beyond pistols counts as close combat weapons. The model has to be equipped with a close combat weapon to actually have one, there is no rule which states otherwise in the rulebook.

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 7, 2011, 06:13:55 PM »
I totally agree with Benis on this one, you must have two CCW's in your equipment section to gain the bonus.
Futhermore to gain the bonus attack a model must have two single handed CCW's and the close combat weapon everyone is assumed to have is not stated as single handed.

Offline Jerseyboy381

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 7, 2011, 07:04:37 PM »
Back to the point...I look at Necron Fast attack and see the Tyranid Elites argument.  There's a lot of good stuff there and only 3 slots.  We are going to have to make some really tough choices.  I know I want Wraiths, Scarabs and Destroyers, but I'd want a squad of heavy destroyers and one of regular ones and thst's not going to work.  Last week Necrons sucked because we had no choices...now we have som many good ones...
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Offline NightMoor

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 7, 2011, 10:44:49 PM »
Agreed that the Fast Attack section is bursting with options, I think many Necron armies will be defined mostly by what their Fast Attack section looks like.
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Offline nawari

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 8, 2011, 12:24:55 AM »
could one compromise by taking wraiths and destryoers. then for scarabs take spyders?
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Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 8, 2011, 12:30:49 AM »
could one compromise by taking wraiths and destryoers. then for scarabs take spyders?

No, assuming you mean use Spyders to create Scarabs. Read the "Scarab Hive" special rule under the Canoptek Spyder entry on page 46.

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 8, 2011, 11:29:38 AM »
to me, 1 squad of scarabs and 1 squad of destroyers are pretty much mandatory, wraiths are something fun to use if you have the points.  If I did take them sticking a destroyer lord in with them would be pretty nasty as whip coils would let him strike before the enemy (yay rerolled hits).  if you don't take the wraiths a squad of heavy destroyers make excellent anti-armor (if only preferred enemy let you reroll ranged attacks too 2 squads of destroyers would be mandatory).

Offline sephiroa

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 8, 2011, 02:07:10 PM »
i love scarabs, they really are tank eaters,
but what about their cc? i can't help but say that they just are SOO weak, you could use them to kill some tanks, ,but their entropic strike, is no use agains normal units, only against a HQ or multi wounded model.
i would use them to take down that immobilised tank, or that annoying rino, but appart from that? not sure

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 8, 2011, 02:25:40 PM »
I could see Scarabs useful against Monstrous Creatures will good armor saves. Sure they'll take a big hit in combat but you only need to do one wound to cripple the enemy. Then next turn just poke it with a stick and watch it fall over. I tried a multiple combat with 6 swarms vs a Chaos Dread and Slaanesh Winged Demon Prince, I dropped the Dread down to AV10 10 8 but wasn't able to wound the Prince sadly (passed his one save). If I had a full unit of Scarabs I think I could have at least taken out the armor save on the Prince and dropped the Dread to AV6 or 7. Considering the price of the Dread and Prince combined, it seems like a fair enough trade.

Offline Benis

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 8, 2011, 02:40:18 PM »
Given that most monstrous creatures still have an impressive toughness, you actually have to make a wound and the likelihood of instant death to the swarms I would avoid them unless absolutely necessary. Many monstrous creatures also have an invulnerable save so in those cases the reward is even lower. Given the unhealthy amount of medium strength shots that Necrons out to be able to pump out monstrous creatures in the 3+ T6 area ought to be easy to whittle down without sacrificing scarabs for such targets.

Offline sephiroa

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 8, 2011, 02:47:55 PM »
Given that most monstrous creatures still have an impressive toughness, you actually have to make a wound and the likelihood of instant death to the swarms I would avoid them unless absolutely necessary. Many monstrous creatures also have an invulnerable save so in those cases the reward is even lower. Given the unhealthy amount of medium strength shots that Necrons out to be able to pump out monstrous creatures in the 3+ T6 area ought to be easy to whittle down without sacrificing scarabs for such targets.

my thoughts exactly,, 4 or 5 to hit, and 6 to wound, even with 50 attacks on 1 monstrous creature, you could have the chance in 1 missed save, and after that most of the time they have inv save,

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 8, 2011, 03:14:11 PM »
I'd rather make the MC take that invulnerable save that is probably worse then their armor save any day. Sure they aren't the best target but combine that with holding them up for a turn to reposition the rest of your army for better firing lines or avoid assault, I don't see it as the worst possible idea. Like I said, in my actual experience against a Chaos Dread and a Demon Prince with 4 or 5 attacks each (in the same combat) I almost accomplished my goal. I realized from the beginning it would be better to aim for one or the other but it was my first game and I wanted to push the limits as far as I could.

Against say Tyranids, where there are no tanks to munch on, Warriors sound like a good target. They each got a ton of wounds and knocking out their armor save (even if it isn't the greatest) could be helpful in the long run. It's tough to want to get in close combat when you don't have an armor save to hide behind.

Offline headfirst

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 9, 2011, 01:07:53 AM »
Scarabs are AMAZING now, must run more of them! Seriously, the extra attack is brutal, and Entropic Strike is just amazing. They do tend to be slightly slower now, but man, they tear through tanks like paper and the dice against units is staggering.

As for the destroyers, they got nerfed from all-round killer to Anti-Marine Specialist. I wish they'd kept the S6, it gave them a decent effect against light armour with the 3 shots. As it is, I feel the dissonance between the destroyer and heavy destroyer guns makes for worse mixed units than the old ones would have been.

As for the Tomb Blades, I'm still not sure... I haven't used them yet. 'twin-linked' and 'tesla' are very good friends though. They do seem very reasonable for their points cost, their profile is that of a warrior, and it's a pretty hefty upgrade. They still don't seem to DO much of anything, except be a fast midrange annoyance. Nebuloscopes and particle beamers might work... it's odd they have so many upgrades for the unit, not like necrons at all.

Wraiths are much better suited as Canoptek flavour-wise, can't wait for the models. The extra wound is more functional than RP for them, and whip coils are a necessity in my eyes. Transdimensional beamers are useless on them; the idea of wraiths stopping is wrong. Particle casters I would take if my army list is a couple of points under the value of the game. By no means essential, but a nice addition. I don't believe they provide +1A, the ccw all units are assumed to have is if they are in lieu of anything else i.e. they don't get penalised fro not having a weapon.
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Offline GaleRazorwind

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 9, 2011, 04:12:16 AM »
When it comes to Tyranid MC's, the only one of us who actually has an invuln is the Swarmlord (and only in CC), so Entropic Strike would be devastating to pretty much any of our MC's. Our most commonly fielded MCs are usually too big to get cover barring an excellent cover phalanx, so at best we are getting FNP from Catalyst after an Entropic Strike.

Of course, I think the Parasite of Mortrex is about to become a lot more popular and useful as the anti-scarab unit. Muahahaha... 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's, wounding on 2+ with S6 and Rending, and for every base that dies to him, I spawn D6 Ripper Swarms on your roll of a 4+. I find the whole idea to be extremely hilarious, since now I'M the one surrounding YOU with swarms, and our many little tiny critters are fighting each other in glorious one-on-one combat (lol picturing Rippers and Scarabs wearing gladiator helmets and wielding sword and shields fighting each other >^_^<).
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Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 9, 2011, 06:22:07 AM »
ok, did a few test runs on destroyers.  They are definitely anti-Meq now, the most painful thing for them is their range now though, it feels so short.  I want to keep them behind most of my army and preferably in cover as a couple of krak missles will easily decimate a squad, negating RP rolls.  better AP in exchange for less shots, lower strength and shorter range made them much more niche.  still, with the number of MEQ armies around they are neccessary.  A squad of 4 or 5 is pretty important against any marine army, and if you get to unload on a footslogging terminator squad you will shred them.

I am definitely loving Scarabs though, my opponent didn't want to move his rhinos near my army because I had a swarm of 10 hiddin in some woods nearby lol, he eventually has a squad charge at them to tie them down so that they wouldn't devour his vehicles.  Once your opponent knows what they can do they will definitely either direct some fire/forces to tie them down or take them out or they will make their vehicles take a longer path to reach you to avoid them.  they are perfect for stopping a blood angle land raider/rhino rush.

Havn't tried wraiths yet, they really do get pretty expensive with lash whips, so I couldn't fit them into my test army.  I just feel that if I need close combat bruisers the spyders are a better buy, 5 more points than a lashwhip wraith, they are much beefier and you get at least 1 free scarab from each of them which is essentially a discount in points.  heck, if you somehow keep a scarab swarm nearby for 3 turns they can pay off their points cost just by making one each turn.  main downside for the spyders is they are slower and lack an inv save.

If someone does a solid test with wraiths let me know, I can see their  potential, it's just the fact that lash whips are pretty much mandatory for them to be effective hurts quite a bit.  Now, on the other hand if the enemy has come to grips with, say a squad of your lychguard you could send some wraiths over to join in just to slow down the enemy troops so your lychguard attack first, that could definitely be a huge boost in close combat.

Offline croggy

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 9, 2011, 07:23:29 AM »
how will kraks negate RP roles?

also i agree with the spiders but thats a seperate issue
« Last Edit: November 9, 2011, 07:25:03 AM by croggy »

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 9, 2011, 08:15:12 AM »
I meant that with enough kraks the enemy could wipe a small destroyer squad out in one turn (from marines, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and all you get is a cover save if you're lucky) and since nearby models don't help any longer it's easier to wipe smaller units.

Offline croggy

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 9, 2011, 09:01:11 AM »
ah yes i get ya now well any amount of concentrated fire would do the same - couple of vendettes - couple of plasma squads

basically anything that murders mech would muder these guys also

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 9, 2011, 09:43:47 AM »
I forget if I mentioned it but I did have a real world test of Wraiths with Whip Coils. A squad of 3 was jumping around the board and managed a multi assault with a Slaanesh Demon Prince and a close combat Chaos Dread. Also my C'tan Shard was able to jump into this combat and they managed 3 wounds on the Prince and Destroyed the AV10 Dread (Scarabs hit him on first turn). Following Turn the other Slaanesh Demon Prince decided to assault into the combat. Needless to say the first Prince died to the C'tan, and the second Prince lost half it's wounds to the Wraiths. Finally on the 3rd round of combat the last Prince was munched and I only lost 1 wound on the Wraiths.

 


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