News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Blood angels codex, NOW  (Read 19942 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

  • Skarboy | Ripper | Princess of Baal
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6524
  • Country: gb
  • Armies: Grey Knights
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2009, 01:36:06 PM »
i have to lol at you people sometimes, instead of "lol that would be cool" or something simular your all like "wah,wah,wah (insert fluff that means very little if not nothing)(further ranting with multiple quotes disected with a scalpel)
Coming from a long (long long) time Blood Angel, let me just put my word in for a moment.

The Blood Angels codex, as has been stated, is fine. We are missing minor things, such as the boosted WS for captains and the fancy wargear rules. We still have proper combat Chaplains (nothing like a Templar chaplain, but who cares?), our Vanguard equivalent is cheaper and much more flexible, and our special characters are great (barring Tycho). The one thing I would ask for would be the Land Raider Redeemer, as it is a big Baal Predator, but that is it.

Don't be so rude in future. The Mods have powers.

Offline M. Gobrot Esq.

  • Grot
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Waaaagh.
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2009, 03:39:44 PM »
(I still don't understand the "free" Rhino for Assault Squads without jump packs, the points really don't make sense, especially for a full-size squad).
Saturation is the only thing I can think of.

I am sorry not sure I understood what you meant by saturation. Could you explain this thought out a bit more.

Thanks.
You've been Grotted


Offline Qui-Gon Jinn

  • Jedi Master of the Editorial Order, TechMarine
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3387
  • Country: 00
  • May the Force be with you!
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2009, 03:43:01 PM »
Saturation is the mindset of puting a LOT of armor on the table, mostly by taking cheap transports.
This is to eliminate most small arms fire, which can normally harm infantry, because it cannot damage the front armor of whatever it is facing.

Also, this is normally done when Heavy Support tanks are taken, or a mechanized list is taken. This is to force the opponent to decide where to place his anti-tank power, and against what to fire upon. This way, if he does not shoot the big gun toting tank, then it will be shooting. Consequentially, if he does not shoot the transports, he will find high quality combat troops in his line destroying his Objective Scoring Troops.

Chaos Daemon Army
The Army in all its glory!
The Battle Reports of the Army

W/L/D
55/11/7

Chaos Poster of 2009!
Bow before me! :P

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

  • Ride Like Lightning, Crash Like Thunder | Infinity Circuit | Pork Sword of Mod-Justice | Took the basket, nuts and lol | Good grief, ye hennie pennies
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13225
  • Country: 00
  • Turtleposting At The Speed Of SHift
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sigmarines, Chaos, Demons
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2009, 04:14:22 PM »
It's still strange because the effective cost of the Rhino is roughly 40 to 90 points depending on squad size (assuming the BA cost and not the ridiculous new cost of Assault Marines).  The bonus to this is that it's the way to get Troops with two CCWs that don't die when they hit trees, but at the additional cost of no special weapon upgrades beyond Plasma Pistols (Blood Angels have apparently forgotten how to use Flamers like Ultramarines have). 

The idea of this Codex being a "great dishonor" is to me absurd, but a few things in it are downright wonky.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 10:13:17 AM by Mr.Peanut »
You are
What you do
When it counts
     -The Masao
"Getting what you want can be dangerous.

Offline YuenglingDragon

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3742
  • I'm a beer dragon!
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2009, 04:21:35 PM »
It's still strange because the effective cost of the Rhino is roughly 40 to 90 points depending on squad size (assuming the BA cost and not the non-ridiculous new cost of Assault Marines).
Meh.  If I was running a full or nearly full squad I might do it to purely mech my forces.  But I'm not a BA player.  I just kill 'em.
Proposition beslubber wins by a landslide!  I'm the 2008 Space Marine poster of the year.

Don't listen to the drunk dragon...

Offline Guildmage Aech

  • FLAMER: Ego Bigger than his Common Sense Centre | 40KO's Care Bear of Spite | Dolphin Death Dealer | 40K Oracle
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10663
  • Country: gb
  • Personal text
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2009, 04:32:06 PM »
The idea of this Codex being a "great dishonor" is to me absurd, but a few things in it are downright wonky.

One imagines it could be difficult to seperate a Blood Angel from his chainsword...
Rules Expert 2007 | Kijayle Commemorative Award for Acid Wit 2008 | Most Notoriously Valuable Rules Expert 2009 | Most Notorious 2014

Offline Locarno

  • Ork Boy
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6488
  • Country: 00
  • Could I interest you in a small bribe?
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2009, 10:39:28 AM »
The list works well, and with assault marines as troops it's very unique. With the exception of Eldar (guardian jetbikes) no-one can hold a candle to the Blood Angels for speed.

The .pdf isn't the be-all and end-all; there will (supposedly) be a proper codex at some point, but since the Blood Angels codex was so adrift and no miniatures were released, it seems fair enough.

The main downsides, as noted, are the wargear and the price of assault marines. Storm shields, digital weapons, et al, are nice tricks but it's the core units which suffer, especially the assault marines, who got a ridiculous discount in the new codex.

That said, the Veteran Assault Squad are, as noted so much cheaper than Vanguard it's not funny, the Death Company are unutterably nails (as ever) and the Blood Angels special characters kick codex tail. This is Dante. Yes, those special rules do what you thought they said. Nice, eh?

Even the regular characters are nice - ok, no relic blade, but paired lightning claws and a combiweapon is a nice trick, and apparently every Company Captain is as good a strategist as the Blue-Armoured Boys Blue-Eyed Boy, Sicarius, getting Rites of Battle instead of a normally useless WS upgrade that only matters when duelling with generals rather than squads..

It'll be interesting to see what they eventually do with them. One big question would be should the Death Company be made an option - as in really an option, not 'you've paid for them but don't have to use them' - as this gets in the way of anyone wanting to use the codex to produce an assault army that isn't genetically psychotic (say, someone's 8th company?).

Stories to read....
Songs of Earth
The Will to Survive Series

Tervigon Army List:
Games Played: 35
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2685

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

  • Ride Like Lightning, Crash Like Thunder | Infinity Circuit | Pork Sword of Mod-Justice | Took the basket, nuts and lol | Good grief, ye hennie pennies
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13225
  • Country: 00
  • Turtleposting At The Speed Of SHift
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sigmarines, Chaos, Demons
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2009, 10:56:53 AM »
As a note, I don't understand the assessment of the Veteran Assault Squad being so much cheaper than Vanguard.  Adding the cost of Jump Packs to the Vanguard, the squad is 25 points more than the Veteran Assault Squad, but that ignores the free Power Weapon that the Sergeant gets, so what you're left with is an insignificant price to pay for Heroic Intervention.  Oh, and Vanguard an equip more models than Blood Angels, (this makes sense, Blood Angels are a new chapter and having exotic CC weapons wouldn't make sense because close combat is foreign to them- oh wait) so include that in the "higher" cost of Vanguard.  The only edge that the VAS has is a roughly 5 point discount and many more options for shooting weapons.

The discount, I suppose, comes from one Death Company member that truly is free at this point?
You are
What you do
When it counts
     -The Masao
"Getting what you want can be dangerous.

Offline Guildmage Aech

  • FLAMER: Ego Bigger than his Common Sense Centre | 40KO's Care Bear of Spite | Dolphin Death Dealer | 40K Oracle
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10663
  • Country: gb
  • Personal text
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2009, 02:10:25 PM »
The only edge that the VAS has is a roughly 5 point discount and many more options for shooting weapons.

The fact they're both similarly priced is undoubtly the reason why neither are seen very often; they're both overpriced. And both suffer from the fact that more cheaper assault marines generally work out better in the law of averages (not to mention that the BA assault marines have the 'hold objectives' badge that their codex counterparts fogot to wear).

Quote from: Locarno
it's the core units which suffer, especially the assault marines, who got a ridiculous discount in the new codex.

Non-scoring assault marines with a ridiclous discount let us remember, meaning that if you actually want an objective for yourself you have to use those points to you saved to buy a troop unit to run over and put a flag on whatever it is while the assault marines sit about their oh-so-fast-attack thumbs.

Quote
One big question would be should the Death Company be made an option - as in really an option, not 'you've paid for them but don't have to use them' - as this gets in the way of anyone wanting to use the codex to produce an assault army that isn't genetically psychotic (say, someone's 8th company?).

Paint one death company guy as an apothacary and pretend its a command squad? :)
Rules Expert 2007 | Kijayle Commemorative Award for Acid Wit 2008 | Most Notoriously Valuable Rules Expert 2009 | Most Notorious 2014

Offline YuenglingDragon

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3742
  • I'm a beer dragon!
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2009, 03:29:04 PM »
There are two ways to win an objective game, Hymirl.  You can take objectives or make your opponent unwilling or unable to take them.  Vanguard can do the latter better, IMO, because of their access to various awesome.
Proposition beslubber wins by a landslide!  I'm the 2008 Space Marine poster of the year.

Don't listen to the drunk dragon...

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

  • Ride Like Lightning, Crash Like Thunder | Infinity Circuit | Pork Sword of Mod-Justice | Took the basket, nuts and lol | Good grief, ye hennie pennies
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13225
  • Country: 00
  • Turtleposting At The Speed Of SHift
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sigmarines, Chaos, Demons
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2009, 04:39:39 PM »
By that logic, nothing that isn't Troops is worth it. 

Basic Assault Marines were well worth the old Codex cost yet VAS get more attacks and more gear for the same price, so I definitely wouldn't call them or Vanguard overcosted (Vanguard are only pointless due to the spam-worthy low cost of new Assault Marines- Assault Marines that now get a Sergeant that can take things only Elites are allowed to take in BA/DA). 
You are
What you do
When it counts
     -The Masao
"Getting what you want can be dangerous.

Offline strikeforce_comander

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Country: 00
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2009, 04:52:47 PM »
The only changes that I can think of for the BA Codex would be to...
1-Add Relic blades for any unit that can take Power weapons(Vet Sgt's, HQ's, ect.)
2-Increase the Drop Pods BS to that of any other vehicle we can use.

But, the biggest thing I would want is a new FAQ...
1-Certain things like Hunter-killer missiles, hurricane bolters, typoon missile launchers, ect. are not explained. I would like to see that put into an FAQ rather than have
    to ask around.
2-Also, although we've come to a conclusion to it on these forums, I'd perfer it if GW would put in wheather or not the VAS can deep strike (we concluded that they
   can). That way, I don't have to explain it every time I play a pick-up game.
3-The stats for the Furioso Dreadnought are slightly different between its entry in the front of the codex, and the rest of the codex for its S. Besides that it is not in
   the reference sheet.
4-Lastly, I find it odd how they put in that the DC Dread gets an extra D3 CC A's, but not the reg DC marines. They're both afflicted by the same Black Rage aren't they?

Other than that, I can't really complain about a free codex too much.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 05:04:55 PM by strikeforce_comander »

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

  • Ride Like Lightning, Crash Like Thunder | Infinity Circuit | Pork Sword of Mod-Justice | Took the basket, nuts and lol | Good grief, ye hennie pennies
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13225
  • Country: 00
  • Turtleposting At The Speed Of SHift
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sigmarines, Chaos, Demons
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2009, 05:19:09 PM »
Anything in the Codex that has or can get a Jump Pack is subject to the rules on page 52.  Point the people who ask to the bottom of the paragraph under MOVEMENT.

The Dreadnaught is different because he has the Black Range and is super-pissed by being crippled and locked inside sarcophagus.  Rending and the other things wouldn't make much of any difference for something that has two Dreadnaught CCWs.
You are
What you do
When it counts
     -The Masao
"Getting what you want can be dangerous.

Offline Guildmage Aech

  • FLAMER: Ego Bigger than his Common Sense Centre | 40KO's Care Bear of Spite | Dolphin Death Dealer | 40K Oracle
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10663
  • Country: gb
  • Personal text
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2009, 06:16:39 PM »
There are two ways to win an objective game, Hymirl.  You can take objectives or make your opponent unwilling or unable to take them.  Vanguard can do the latter better, IMO, because of their access to various awesome.

I live in eternal fear of their ability to cost twice as much as a normal space marine and die just as easily... ;)

Quote from: Mr.Peanut
By that logic, nothing that isn't Troops is worth it.

Thats a considerable exageration of my point. It is however worth noting that being a scoring unit is an advantage that some other units don't have, its not one that renders all other unit choices pointless anymore than one unit being able to take anti-tank guns means that no-one else has to.

In responce to both of you, it goes without saying that milage will vary. Some people like fielding smaller elite armies and some prefer as many boots on the table as possible. However in the cause against VAS they have exactly the same problem Vanguard have, that theres a cheaper similar option in the same part of the force organisation chart (in the case of BA it would be the death company and their rending chainswords of fury).
My opinon is that both are a bit too expensive for taste.

Quote from: strikeforce_comander
2-Also, although we've come to a conclusion to it on these forums, I'd perfer it if GW would put in wheather or not the VAS can deep strike (we concluded that they can). That way, I don't have to explain it every time I play a pick-up game.

The solution to this is actually quite easy, page 52 of the 5th edition codex specifies that all jump pack units have the ability to deep strike (end of the movement section). Even if they didn't have it before 5th edition, they do now!

Quote
4-Lastly, I find it odd how they put in that the DC Dread gets an extra D3 CC A's, but not the reg DC marines. They're both afflicted by the same Black Rage aren't they?

It seems fairly reasonable that they angrier, apart from the fact that they're locked in a metal box they've likely been in there a lot longer than a death company marine survives on foot.
Rules Expert 2007 | Kijayle Commemorative Award for Acid Wit 2008 | Most Notoriously Valuable Rules Expert 2009 | Most Notorious 2014

Offline YuenglingDragon

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3742
  • I'm a beer dragon!
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2009, 09:32:04 PM »
I live in eternal fear of their ability to cost twice as much as a normal space marine and die just as easily... ;)
Hehe...touche.

I think in some armies, notably pure and mostly drop pod armies, Vanguards have a place that assault squads can't compete in.  Drop on a locator beacon and charge.  The Assault squad would add a few mostly useless shots and contribute nothing if you need to get a squad thats been assaulted out of the amphetamine parrot.

9 out of 10 armies should use assault marines.  The other one needs Vanguard.
Proposition beslubber wins by a landslide!  I'm the 2008 Space Marine poster of the year.

Don't listen to the drunk dragon...

Offline Moto Gaheris

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Do Ya Got any Mountain Dew?
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2009, 11:59:30 PM »
Chaplain Dreads?  Where in the fiction would this be found?
   The DC Dread is mean enuff. 
  Our space vampires seem well off compared to other Smurf armies.  So the Boys in Blue have new toys.  Hey they don't have other options like we have...DC, Furioso, Assault squads as troops, Baal Tanks.   
  I like to count these options as reasons why we don't need to ask for more from GW.  Look at the fact that the Angels are no longer afflicted by the "roll for each unit before the game and certain models become DC,"  or the "make a rage roll for each Blood Angel unit to see if they Rage and Must move towards the closest enemy unit!"  Remember when  Blood Angel armies never fielded Devastator Squads due to this?
  As for the Dark Angels, I wish Our terminators could Deepstrike in on the first turn!
   
I'd prefer it if GW would put in whether or not the VAS can deep strike (we concluded that they can). That way, I don't have to explain it every time I play a pick-up game.

The solution to this is actually quite easy, page 52 of the 5th edition codex specifies that all jump pack units have the ability to deep strike (end of the movement section). Even if they didn't have it before 5th edition, they do now!

Assault squads are perfect for my Blood-lusting warmonger attitude.   Lemartes is in every one of my armies, just like my former 3rd ed. Chaplain with J-pack (and back then i gave him Dual L-claws too).

   Yeah I'd like errata concerning the Deepstrike ability for all J-packs.  And More flamers for the assault squads, but i can't get enough of our Death Company!
   I say take your time putting out another Codex, help others first.
Shoot First, Shoot Last, Shoot a Little More.
   Ask questions later.

Offline Locarno

  • Ork Boy
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6488
  • Country: 00
  • Could I interest you in a small bribe?
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2009, 02:31:09 AM »
Quote
-Lastly, I find it odd how they put in that the DC Dread gets an extra D3 CC A's, but not the reg DC marines. They're both afflicted by the same Black Rage aren't they?

They get 1 extra attack - remember they're normal astartes, not necessarily veterans. +D3 is just the result of being (a) humungous and (b) extra angry, as Hymirl said.

Quote
Chaplain Dreads?  Where in the fiction would this be found?
Imperial Armour Volume 6. For which there is extent rules and a model, for that matter. Not that I advocate putting it into the codex, but just mentioning it for completeness.

Stories to read....
Songs of Earth
The Will to Survive Series

Tervigon Army List:
Games Played: 35
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2685

Offline NewHeretic

  • Same Heretic, New God | Ork Boy
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4402
  • Country: us
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2009, 10:52:16 AM »
I honestly think that the BA are just fine the way they are. 

It is perfectly reasonable to desire that some FAQs be addressed or that some ineffective units be adjusted points-wise, but complaining that they don't get the same benefits as Vanilla chapters in the new Space Marine codex is just ridiculous.  After all, Codex chapters don't get Assault Squads as scoring units, Furioso Dreadnoughts, or Baal Predators (which I'd really like!).  BA get some treats and Codex: Space Marine chapters get some treats.  You can't expect to have your request taken seriously if you're asking for all the goodies in one basket without granting the same boon to everyone else.

NewHeretic
Good advice from Joshua:

Choose you this day
Whom you will serve...
As for me and my house,
We will serve the Lord.

NewHeretic, forum policeman.

Offline YuenglingDragon

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3742
  • I'm a beer dragon!
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2009, 12:28:09 PM »
Imperial Armour Volume 6. For which there is extent rules and a model, for that matter. Not that I advocate putting it into the codex, but just mentioning it for completeness.
Check it out here.
It's a pretty nice model, though I think the DA and BT ones are better.
Proposition beslubber wins by a landslide!  I'm the 2008 Space Marine poster of the year.

Don't listen to the drunk dragon...

Offline jimbo1701

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2009, 09:49:17 AM »
I rather treacherously traded in my BA-printed codex for a nice shiny new SM codex back in October, but am now having DC/Baal/Furioso withdrawal and so have gone back to the BAs!! Changes I personally would like to see that bring BAs more in line while keeping them unique:

Wargear - addition of wargear from codex SM i.e. new storm shields, relic blades to make the astartes seem more uniform.

HQ -
special characters
Chaplain (same stats as now, option to upgrade to dreadnought for mega HQ choice!)
Captain (more in line with codex one)
Libby (more psychic powers)
Sanguinary priest (similar rules to corbulo, so no need for special characters every game)
Honour Guard (one per HQ? Same flexibility but better champion and wargear options)

Elites -
Dreadnought (furioso/DC upgrade)
Venerable dreadnought (furioso/DC upgrade)
Termies (in line with codex marines - 1 squad may take LR transport)
Assault termies (in line with codex marines - 1 squad may take LR transport)
VAS (same options, plus heroic intervention cos they're every bit as good as codex marines)
Techmarine
Death company (would like to see them as a purchasable upgrade, not compulsory, with a limit being set on amount of DC-takable units in army - don't take up elite slot)

Troops -
Tactical
Assault (Count as troops if captain has JP?? - similar to bike rule in C:SM)
Scouts (having them in elites they may as well not exist, and besides, CSM have how many troops options??!)

Fast attack -
Bikes
Attack bikes
Land speeder
Land speeder storm
scout bikers
Assault marines (see troops)

Heavy support -
devastators
land raider (increased capacity)
land raider redeemer
land raider crusader
Baal predator
Predator
Vindicator
Whirlwind

Something along those lines would make me very very happy. I'm happy with it as it is tho - it's playable and balanced, just some things don't make much sense when compared to the C:SM and there are units I'd like to take and can't. (i.e. scout bikers)

 


Powered by EzPortal