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Offline magenb

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Power Levels vs Points
« on: July 30, 2017, 08:30:11 PM »
So had a game over the weekend, Death Watch vs Harlies. This was a PL game, but in building the Deathwatch list, we noticed the points were waaaaay off if I tooled everything up, so I ended up winding it back. Turns out I should not have, it was just a slaughter (as in Harlies owned the DW).
The Harlies were all fully tooled up with Fusion Pistols and Caresses, if I had gone down the path of dropping storm shields on everyone, then, it would have been a fairly even match up for Power Level Match… Alternatively if the pistols were not upgraded, then it would have been a more even match up too. Kind of feels if at least for these two armies, that if one side grabs all the kit, then the other side should as well. However in doing so, there is a massive difference in points (400-500)..

Has anyone been keeping an eye on the PL vs Points?

On the flip side if I ran my general CWE list against those Harlies it would have been a much more even match up both PL and point wise.

So I'm interested to see what other people have been seeing.

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 08:40:52 PM »
I think power levels is good if you're not going to tool everything out. It's good for more narrative and casual play, where you don't want to min/max. Bring what the models have wysiwyg and things should be fine.

For games where you do want to min/max, then you need points to keep it balanced.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 08:45:44 PM »
I have played a couple PL games very casually. In general the purpose of PL is to be quick and easy to set up a game with two similar armies, not accurate. It also makes it easy to play with models you already have lying around. It slightly changes the balance of certain things I'm guessing depending on whether or not your models have those particular options or not. PL games I think are supposed to be more fun than satisfying.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 09:22:28 PM »
I think PL is fine if you *aren't* going to pay much attention to or spend a lot of time on army list building. It's an approximate value only.

Additionally, I personally think all PL games should be WYSIWYG or gtfo.

Offline magenb

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 10:06:51 PM »
I was surprised that two fully loaded armies in a PL game would be a much better match up than those same armies point costed out. I would have expected the points to be much closer. Kind of feels like some armies are better to play PL rather than points...


Harlies vs CWE certainly seems to be close PL and Point wise.


WYSIWYG initailly would cust down on people just tooling the army out, but given how parts shops are floating around, it would kind of make it more of a pay to win thing (or atleast a significant advantage). Also long as the army list is writen/saved somewhere, I've never really had a big issue with just using the models you have, especially if they are the right sizes.




Offline Wyddr

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 06:38:17 AM »
WYSIWYG initailly would cust down on people just tooling the army out, but given how parts shops are floating around, it would kind of make it more of a pay to win thing (or atleast a significant advantage). Also long as the army list is writen/saved somewhere, I've never really had a big issue with just using the models you have, especially if they are the right sizes.

The moment somebody starts tooling their army up to be unstoppable, you need to *stop* playing power levels, as they are entirely missing the point. PL is to play "rule of cool" fluffy armies, not beat-face killer optimization lists. A guy shows up to the table with every Harlequin packing a fusion pistol, the words that come out of your mouth are "matched play, please."

PL is for casual, pick-up play among beginners or non-optimized fluffy lists. If you're doing literally anything else, you need to play matched.

Offline murgel

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 06:48:10 AM »
... PL games I think are supposed to be more fun than satisfying.

I agree with you until this point.
Because I feel they are supposed to be fun and satisfying.
while Points are supposed to be competitive and ehm, well competitive.  8)
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 07:29:01 AM »
PL is for narrative play--just for fun, for the story of the battle.

Matched play is for competition, meaning you are both doing your best to win.

If you are playing to win, play matched. As I feel this applies to *most* scenarios in which people play games, I think most people should play matched most of the time. For instance: any discussion of what units are better values in a PL game have totally missed the point of narrative play and should be playing matched.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 02:17:24 PM »
... PL games I think are supposed to be more fun than satisfying.

I agree with you until this point.
Because I feel they are supposed to be fun and satisfying.
while Points are supposed to be competitive and ehm, well competitive.  8)

Yeah, but once you're inside the game itself, you're going to try to win, regardless of how tryhard you were about list building beforehand. And if I win a PL game, I maybe had fun, but I don't feel the satisfaction of having played my opponent at his best; maybe I simply won because PL is a quick-and-dirty way of balancing armies and my loadout happened to be more points than his while being the same PL.

No matter how casually I am playing with someone, I prefer if the game be evenly matched if possible. PL does a good job of getting close with minimal effort (which is good), but that's about it. I suspect we may just be talking about different things when we say "satisfaction" here because while it is fun to play a quick game, satisfaction is something else entirely for me.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #9 on: August 2, 2017, 02:29:22 AM »
You know what Intercessor Squads are, right? Similar to basic Tactical marines but with 2W and much better guns. I'd rate them as being at least 1.7 times stronger overall than standard tacticals. And yet - yeah, you guessed it - in the new SM codex both squads have the same PL of 5.

This speaks of how "precise" or "balanced" power points are.
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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #10 on: August 2, 2017, 04:01:25 AM »
You know what Intercessor Squads are, right? Similar to basic Tactical marines but with 2W and much better guns. I'd rate them as being at least 1.7 times stronger overall than standard tacticals. And yet - yeah, you guessed it - in the new SM codex both squads have the same PL of 5.

This speaks of how "precise" or "balanced" power points are.


5 Tac Marines with Plasgun + Combi-Plas costs about the same as 5 Intercessors with grenade launcher and power sword.
5 Tac Marines with Grav Cannon + Combi-Melta/Thunderhammer Sergeant costs more than 5 Intercessors even with the fancy upgrades
Absolutely maxed out upgrades on 5 Intercessors costs 10 points less as a kitted-out 5 man Tac Marines squad.

Balanced!
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Offline magenb

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #11 on: August 2, 2017, 07:09:24 PM »

5 Tac Marines with Plasgun + Combi-Plas costs about the same as 5 Intercessors with grenade launcher and power sword.
5 Tac Marines with Grav Cannon + Combi-Melta/Thunderhammer Sergeant costs more than 5 Intercessors even with the fancy upgrades
Absolutely maxed out upgrades on 5 Intercessors costs 10 points less as a kitted-out 5 man Tac Marines squad.

Balanced!

The more I look at Power Levels, the more I think they've just assumed you will take all the good gear.

Intercessors vs Inceptors would be a good example, at base config and same power levels.
21 Wounds, 10 long range shots, 20 short range (the upgrade options here are not that great anyway).
7 Wounds, 18 short range shots, but slightly higher strength, but faster moving. Not really worth it.

or kitted out its 7 Wounds, with an average of 12 High strength high AP short range shots, it might actually be worth it.

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #12 on: August 2, 2017, 07:37:17 PM »
yeah PLs are not necessarily good for anything but casual play, but they basically assume you've taken some options. If you spend the PLs for 10 Tac Marines and all they have are bolters, that fact is lost in the coarse-grained nature of PLs. They're serviceable for quick games with the models you have lying around.
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Offline Killersquid

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #13 on: August 2, 2017, 09:41:20 PM »
yeah PLs are not necessarily good for anything but casual play, but they basically assume you've taken some options. If you spend the PLs for 10 Tac Marines and all they have are bolters, that fact is lost in the coarse-grained nature of PLs. They're serviceable for quick games with the models you have lying around.


This.

If you want to play a competitive game and want to min/max your units for the best bang for your buck, then Power Levels is not something for you.

I would also probably insist that Power Level games have to be WYSIWYG.
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Power Levels vs Points
« Reply #14 on: August 3, 2017, 04:05:29 AM »
huuum there is one thing I am surr the bigger the power level of the game the easier it is to balance again between the army assuming someone is not purely abusing the game.

We played a 30points game with a friend eldar vs blood angels honestly the game was tense and roughly equal. It was our first game with 8th so we both did mistake, forgeting that you can desengage from cc, forgeting bs reduction for moving with vyper. the game was really fun for me, probably because I won, but there was a hell of random thing woch made the game fun. Yet later we caculated points just to get an idea. I had 776 to my opponents 550. I had 30 pl and he had 27 if I recall correctly. But because I played dirty with list building where he tried knew thing and as dirty as he could I won. We both agreed to play dirty in list building.

So yeah power level can be fun but now my friend doesn't want to play power level anymore ><.


Casual and campain play are probably the best place for PL. I mean let's assume a mission where the winner get 15 pl of heavy support for the next game It can create intresting dinamic. Plus do not fprget the outsider and other rules as well they got in with power point. Nobody talk aboit that but some of these rules can really turn a game around.
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