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Author Topic: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?  (Read 3481 times)

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Offline Blazinghand

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Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« on: July 11, 2017, 07:07:14 PM »
So I've been thinking about the Falcon some more. A Bright Lance Falcon, compared to a Crimson Hunter, is differently durable (more T, but no Hard to Hit), more expensive, and has less damage output. Upside is that it can stand still, and it can transport. So, if we're paying a premium for those features over a Crimson Hunter, how could we make use of it? I was wondering if it might make sense to run a Falcon with some Dark Reapers in it.

The idea would be to have 6 Dark Reapers deploy inside the Falcon. If you go second, they'll be protected inside the Falcon hull. They can jump out and start shooting right away without any penalties due to Dark Reaper special rules.

So imagine something like this:

Falcon with Pulse Laser, Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Aeldari Missile Launcher
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Aeldari Missile Launcher
Total Points Cost: 410

Loadout Explanation:
So on the Falcon, a Bright Lance is very good anti-tank and fairly cheap. The Shuriken Cannon is not really more expensive than the catapults so it's a good buy as well.
For the Dark Reapers, our goal is to get 6 Starshot Missiles as cheaply as possible. The Reaper Launcher's Starshot Missile is basically the same as the Aeldari Missile Launcher's Starshot Missile, but the AEML is cheaper. The downside of the AEML is that the Sunburst Missile secondary fire is much worse than the Reaper Launcher's Starswarm Missile secondary fire, and this especially shows against multiwound targets like bikers and TEQs. Still, for our AT role, the AEML is cheaper and just as good.
By splitting into two units of 3, we can downgrade two Exarchs to AEMLs, saving some points and maintaining firepower (and in fact, becoming slightly more durable).

Damage output:
1 Bright Lance shot, 1 PL giving 2 shots, 6 AEML/Reaper Launcher shots, all at pretty good BS, and with the Reaper-fired weapons suffering no penalties against Hard To Hit:
Total Expected Damage against T7, 3+: 9.4 damage
Total Expected Damage against T8, 3+: 7.1 damage
Total Expected Damage against T8, 2+: 5.5 damage
Total Expected Damage against T7, 3+, -1 to hit: 8.5 damage (note: Reapers don't get a penalty)

Not bad! But how does it match up to other eldar AT options for about 400 points?

Comparison units of similar price
1 Crimson Hunter Exarch + 1 Crimson Hunter:
Vs T7 3+: 11.3 damage
Vs T8 3+: 8.5 damage
Vs T8 2+: 7.6 damage
Vs T7 3+, -1 to hit: 13 damage (note: CH get bonuses against fliers)

4 War Walkers with Bright Lances:
Vs T7 3+: 12.4 damage
Vs T8 3+:  9.3 damage
Vs T8 2+: 7.8 damage
Vs T7 3+, -1 to hit: 9.3 damage

3 Ravagers (15% more expensive):
Vs T7 3+: 14 damage
Vs T8 3+:  10.5 damage
Vs T8 2+: 8.8 damage
Vs T7 3+, -1 to hit: 10.5 damage

--

Blazinghand compares things

So, it looks like Eldar have many options that are strictly better in terms of raw antitank output. War Walkers armed with Bright Lances and Ravagers armed with Dark Lances have a very similar performance profile, for their cost; 3 ravagers puts out about 15% more damage than 4 twin-BL war Walkers, but costs about 15% more as well. Crimson Hunter Exarch + Crimson Hunter (which clocks in at just around 400 points) bring 4 BLs and 2 PLs to the table, which are slightly outperformed by the 8 BLs of War Walkers for the same price, except against Flyers, which they dominate due to their special rules. Any of these choices does better in every category than a Falcon with 6 Dark Reapers does for the same cost.

So why might we prefer the Falcon + 6 Dark Reapers for 400 points, to the Crimson Hunters, the War Walkers, and the Ravagers? Aside from just damage, what relative strengths are there?

Mobility: The Crimson Hunters and Ravagers are more mobile, able (or forced) to move and fire with the damage output noted. War Walkers are assumed to be standing still. The Falcon + Dark Reapers assume the Falcon is standing still.  Despite the scout move, and decent speed, I can't help but feel that War Walkers are the least mobile here. The Crimson Hunters are easily the fastest.

Tactical Flexibility: The Dark Reapers have secondary fire, The Falcon has the Shuriken Cannon, and the Falcon does field a small transport capacity that could be useful later. The War Walkers can effectively redeploy after everyone deploys, and are surprisingly respectable in assault (though not actually good). The Ravager actually wins in terms of melee output in some scenarios due to Bladevanes. The fact that Crimson Hunters are forced to move is a point against them, here.

Durability: The War Walkers are relatively vulnerable, with a defensive profile similar to a Ravager (Though with fewer wounds per model, but no falloff of effectiveness). The Dark Reapers aren't exactly sturdy either, though the long range of their weapons and their nature as Infantry (who can get cover bonuses much more easily) helps. Sadly, every lost wound reduces Dark Reaper damage output. The Crimson Hunters are not amazing toughness wise, but they have good saves and critically, they are hard to hit. The Falcon is sturdiest but gets no hard-to-hit bonus.

Auras/bonuses: Most of these groups of units are split up a lot (like the Dark Reapers + Falcon being three units) or in the case of Ravagers aren't Asuryani or <CRAFTWORLD> so dont' benefit from Autarch/Farseer powers (though Doom will still work for the Ravagers). You could run the War Walkers as one unit of 3 and one unit of 1, and Guide the unit of 3. Running one unit of 6 Dark REapers would be more expensive but would make Guide work better.



Maybe the Falcon + 6 Dark Reapers isn't as good as I thought then. Seems like Eldar has better AT options, though perhaps on the field the small advantages in durability and range the Falcon and Dark Reapers have would make the difference. I've seen Falcons do some good things this edition, maybe it's worth it for the durable and versatile Falcon frame.

I'm also guessing basically none of these match up to a bunch of Fire Dragons at close range, but this was more of a "long range AT" kind of idea.

Any thoughts? What are you folks running for ranged AT? Does the Falcon + Reapers idea have merit, or should I just be running Crimson Hunters and Ravagers?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:29:10 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 07:51:24 PM »
Nice review, Blazinhand!
Learned a lot from this. Has made me want to paint up my two Falcons. Hope the price hike is across the board of 40K armies. Have written up a 1500pt list for the first time in 8th, and it is half the size of the usual in 7th.

Well thought out and presented, mate. well done.

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 08:52:11 PM »
Yeah, you're definitely paying for the transport capacity on the Falcon, as well as the extra guns.

If I were to run a falcon, I'd probably take a starcannon and two shuriken cannons. I know that the starcannon lacks the strength of other anti-tan guns, but I really like the standard three damage, and the extra shot. It'll still not wound anything worse then a 5+, which isn't the worst, and Doom can always help with that.

Then, there are 6 more shots at S6 which can help threaten pretty much anything in the game.

A bit pricy, but a really solid firebase.

I'd then find a random cheap 5 man squad to stick inside for a Turn 4-5 objective grab once the table has been thinned out a bit. Assuming other aggressive elements in the army, the Falcon can stick back at 24" and just hammer folks while other units lay down the pressure. There is something to be said about keeping units off the table for the first few turns, as those are the bloodiest parts of the game.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 09:23:25 PM »
So just a Falcon on its own, with a Pulse Laser, Bright Lance, and Shuriken Cannon, if it shoots the PL and BL, does this vs T7 3+: 3.7 damage, which isn't on its own too spectacular, so yeah, we are definitely paying for that transport ability.

One thought might be to put a squad of 6 Dire Avengers or 6 Howling Banshees in there. Either unit would cost about 100 pts before Exarch upgrades. Would the idea in this case be to jump out the 6 Dark Reapers after they hide for Turn 1, then jump the other Aspect Warriors in? Or just no Dark Reapers at all?
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 09:24:37 PM »
I really see no need for the Falcon currently. Even last edition when you could deep strike if you take three of them. The last time I used one was 4th edition to move Harlequins and DAVUs.

I'd rather just take more reapers.

Offline magenb

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 09:27:15 PM »
Reapers like all Eldar need support, however having them in cover means you need to send a tone of 0 AP shots at them, factor in that you can also use command points to keep them alive. This mean high AP round will need to be sent their way. So you should have something else they need to use those on like a hemlock or knight.

My anti-tank is a combo of reapers, Spears and hemlock. Great board coverage, and can clean up infantry as well.

Offline Tweedz

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 10:00:23 PM »
Very Insightful Blazinghand. If you don't mind, I might copy your format to look at another of our heavy support options.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 10:05:35 PM »
Very Insightful Blazinghand. If you don't mind, I might copy your format to look at another of our heavy support options.

Go right ahead! I didn't look in depth at certain units like Wraithlords, Fire Prisms, Night Spinner, etc. My guess is Wraithlords are lower in damage output with heavy weapons, but i'm sure they make up for it in durability and combat ability.

From a glance, it looks like Support Weapons Battery are too expensive this edition to use.

==

EDIT: An alternative group you can take for about 400 pts:
Wave Serpent with 2x BL, 1x Shuriken Cannon
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with AEML
4 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with AEML

Compared to the Falcon unit, this costs just about the same, and gives up the Pulse Laser for an extra Reaper Launcher and an extra Bright Lance. I think it comes out just about the same in terms of shooting output, but the tank is more durable (Wave Serpent has more wounds and the Serpent Shield) and more is invested in the infantry.

Also, with this unit, if you want to spend more points, you can crank it up to 500 pts by adding 3 Dark Reapers (running everything as either 3 squads, slightly cheaper due to an extra AEML downgrade, or 2 5-strong squads). The Dark Reapers are somewhat more cost-effective in output, which means this unit will have more bang for the buck.

So, a 500 point unit might look like this:

Wave Serpent with 2x Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with AEML
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with AEML
4 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with AEML

This unit puts out 10 Starshot missiles and 2 Brightlance shots per turn. Effectively you have 10 Dark Reapers inside a Wave Serpent, and they just jump out and start shooting on your turn 1 while the Wave Serpent goes off to go be a tank or do transport trickery.

--

So, why might the Falcon be good compared to this option? Well, at 400 points, maybe you'd prefer for more of your AT to be mounted on the skimmer hull than to be on infantry. The Wave Serpent option deals similar damage, but less of it comes from the somewhat more resilient tank. Of course, at 500 pts there's not really an option here: if you want to transport 10 Dark Reapers to give them a hull to hide inside during Turn 1, a Wave Serpent is the only way to do it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 10:18:57 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 11:07:13 PM »
Awesome review! Stuff like this needs to get stickied and made into tactical pages again!



If I were to run a falcon, I'd probably take a starcannon and two shuriken cannons. I know that the starcannon lacks the strength of other anti-tan guns, but I really like the standard three damage, and the extra shot.

Unfortunately the FAQ made that into d3 damage instead of base 3
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 11:27:04 PM »
Not considering points, If we're doing weird transport tricks:

Serpent - triple shuriken cannons, vectored, spirit stones.
3x Reapers
3x Reapers
6x Fire Dragons - dragon's breadth flamer

Reapers drop out turn one, serpent and dragons advance towards target. Can threaten various types of units.

Really I'm finding heavy weapons on vehicles that need to move (that don't offer a decent volume) useless and a waste of points due to the reduced BS. With the above example you have first then protection, fast and durable, and the ability to threaten a lot of targets.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 05:19:49 AM »
I'd rather take 4x3 Reapers in a Wave Serpent.

If I take 2 of these:
Quote
4x 3x Reapers,ÆML 408p
Serpent, triple shuriken, stones 153p
total 561p

over 3 of these:
Quote
Falcon with Pulse Laser, Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Aeldari Missile Launcher
3 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Aeldari Missile Launcher
Total Points Cost: 410

It's 1122 points instead of 1230 points.

And since I'm lazy I only take one example:
Quote
Total Expected Damage against T7, 3+: 9.4 damage
x3 = 28,2 dmg

Comparred to:
Quote
8 Reaper launchers: 7.11 dmg
4 ÆML: 5.53 dmg
3 Shuriken cannons: 1.17 dmg
Total: 13,81
x2 = 27,6 dmg
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 05:24:46 AM by Fenris »
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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 08:48:06 AM »
Awesome review! Stuff like this needs to get stickied and made into tactical pages again!

It would be better to turn it into an article for the front page and/or have a sticky topic of the most insightful topics posted on this board.  I can create the latter once more topics start being created.

The idea of fielding two squads of Dark Reapers in a Falcon for ranged anti-tank has more merit than I thought it would have.  It would certainly be an idea that I might try, since I have all the models, and I don't own any of the newer options, such as the Crimson Hunter and I definitely don't want to be using Dark Eldar units.  I normally consider Dark Reapers to be an anti-infantry unit, but when used in conjunction with a Falcon, there is potential to inflict significant damage on vehicles and I like the mobility that this group would have at the start of the game.  The Falcon would also help to keep the Dark Reapers protected, which is especially important if you know that you're unlikely to get the first turn.
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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 08:48:47 AM »
I've been rocking with 2x Hornets with lances, a Warp Hunter and a unit of 5 Scourge with 3-4x lances. You basically cannot hide from this little trio of tank busting glory. The Scourge and Warp Hunter can ferret out enemy armor even when they are behind LOS blocking terrain and the Hornets have the fantastic mobility to almost always get a bead on their targets.

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 06:50:15 PM »
Yeah, you're definitely paying for the transport capacity on the Falcon, as well as the extra guns.

If I were to run a falcon, I'd probably take a starcannon and two shuriken cannons. I know that the starcannon lacks the strength of other anti-tan guns, but I really like the standard three damage, and the extra shot. It'll still not wound anything worse then a 5+, which isn't the worst, and Doom can always help with that.

Then, there are 6 more shots at S6 which can help threaten pretty much anything in the game.

A bit pricy, but a really solid firebase.

I'd then find a random cheap 5 man squad to stick inside for a Turn 4-5 objective grab once the table has been thinned out a bit. Assuming other aggressive elements in the army, the Falcon can stick back at 24" and just hammer folks while other units lay down the pressure. There is something to be said about keeping units off the table for the first few turns, as those are the bloodiest parts of the game.

A Falcon can only take two shuriken cannon if it doesn't take the starcannon or bright lance - one is the underslung catapult upgrade and the other the auxiliary weapon. It always has the pulse laser as its primary.

Offline Tweedz

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #14 on: August 2, 2017, 04:15:46 PM »
I am definitely of the mind the falcons are far overpriced for their job, but there are times where something does not have the same point cost as it does power cost and sometimes end up being a much better value in one system *cough dire avengers cough*. So, in working with the most recent list competition I took a second look at falcons.

Assuming 20 points is about equal to 1 power, Falcons can actually get quite a ways beyond their power cost when you take all the amenities. Depending on weapon load-out, a falcon can get upwards of 20 to 30 points more bang for it buck using the power system. In addition, in smaller point/power games, there could be some value in being able to mix a heavy support with another detachment for more CPs.

I still think they are overpriced (both in point and power), and they still have less firepower than other options, but maybe just maybe they are worth taking if you run power rather than points. After all, DAs are actually worthwhile in power so you could go back to classic DAV Falcons

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #15 on: August 2, 2017, 05:05:43 PM »
Just one comparison: Falcon is 11 whereas Ravager is 9.
IMO, though DAs are quite fine in power points games, Falson would be one example where power points don't help...
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: Falcon + Dark Reapers for ranged anti tank?
« Reply #16 on: August 2, 2017, 05:11:21 PM »
Yes the ravager is a better gun-boat, but the damage difference is fairly small.

I think 2 power and a slight loss of damage can be worth the transport capacity and the additional fortitude the falcon offers over a ravager.

Not saying the falcon is perfect, but it is more worthwhile in the power system than it is in points.

 


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