Topic: Effectiveness of Imperial Knights?

[Wyddr]

So, the Daemon Wave thread in the Chaos Boards got me wondering about this: Just how effective are Imperial Knights, anyway? I haven't played against them, myself (nobody around here runs them), so I have no firsthand experience. I know the stats, though, and they look pretty scary. How I'd deal with 3-4 of them at once is a mystery to me unless I was specifically tailoring my list to face them (i.e. a Sea of Lascannons).

Then again, I hear from some quarters that they're underwhelming and don't supply enough firepower to justify their cost.

Which is it? Unstoppable juggernauts or giant paperweights? What have your experiences been with them? If I get one, will I become the villain of my gaming group?

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Against someone who is inexperienced, or who brings a list that does not have enough variety in anti-tank weaponry, they are going to be devastating.  The key to bringing down an Imperial Knight is to swarm them with anti-tank weaponry.  And I don't mean spamming lascannons.  The reason why lascannon spam isn't the most effective is that a smart player with a Knight will have most of your lascannons hitting his Ion Shield, statistically negating more than 3/4 of your shots (Shots fired - shots missed - failed to damage - saved).  What you need to do is hit them on multiple sides with massed fired.  You don't necessarily need to penetrate, just bring them down by glancing.  I have found melta's mounted on bikes or deep striking melta units to be the best way.

As for their effectiveness, it really does come down to the army they are facing.  While they can be tied down by swarms, they are still dangerous to units around them thanks to their stomp attacks.  Their stomps augment their base attacks and can actually make swift work of a hoard of lightly armoured infantry.  The dangerous thing is that the stomp attacks hit the models beneath the template, meaning rolling that 6 to kill everything can really bugger your plans.  Also remember that their stomps can also effect more valuable targets that are near the combat as they can be walked out and strike units near by.  My best was stomping a Hive Tyrant and 3 Tyrant guard who were 6" away from the combat and rolling a 6 to kill them all (they were nicely clumped).

Their shooting is decent, with the Paladin being able to handle hoards of infantry in the open thanks to his Battle Cannon.  The Errant gives a nice AT punch, but has to get close to be effective.

The biggest downside to the Imperial Knights is their cost.  For what you get, you could probably spend the points on some more cost effective units.  Look at my Deathwing for instance.  I run two lists, the first being 15 Terminators + Belial + Knight Paladin + Knight Errant at 1850pts.  The other list is 25 Terminators, Belial, Lvl 2 Librarian, Command Squad with FNP banner, and a melta dread in a pod. 

Knights are fun, they give most Imperial armies a "Big-nasty" thing to go toe to toe with the likes of Wraithknights and Riptides, but they can be easily neutralized if dealt with properly and are a huge point sink.  Not to mention if they die early in the game, there is a greater chance of them exploding on your guys than on theirs.

[Wyddr]

It would seem to me, however, that you'd probably need a melta team for each Knight you propose to eliminate, since immediately after destroying a knight, they probably just plain die. I don't see a lot of lists running around with more than 2-3 melta teams, barring Imperial Guard (Sorry--"AM").

I guess if you can take out 2 of 4 Knights, you stand a reasonable chance of winning the game, but each Knight is pretty damned scary.

And then what about those armies that don't have easy access to meltaguns? What the hell do Orks/Nids/Daemons/Dark Eldar do? It seems that in the time even a darklance-heavy DE list can kill a knight, that knight (and his three buddies) have stomped all over your face.

I really do wonder at the rationale to have them move 12", honestly. They seem to be able to do everything--move fast, shoot, assault, endure--at the same time.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Orks and Nids have the most difficulty in destroying the Knights, but they also have the ability to throw enough bodies at them to hold them up for a couple of rounds of combat while the rest of the army beats face.  Because remember, the knights are a considerable point investment.

And while melta is the most reliable method to bring them down, the biggest thing is mobile high strength weapons.  Wave Serpents that can make it into the side arc can do a serious number on them.  Like I said, the key is to saturate the knight on multiple sides with multiple units per armour arc and pummel it.  A Darklance heavy DE list should be able to drop a knight in a single round of shooting, as long as the lances are mounted on vehicles.

Also, Daemons do have a chance at taking down a knight in combat with a Daemon Prince.  Their high WS and psychic powers mean they can usually tear one apart before they get a chance to strike back.  Just hope he doesn't survive and roll a 6 on his stomp.

And the rational for them moving 12" is simple.  They are 1 man titans.  If you read the one HH book where they talk about the civil war on Mars, they have a Knightly House in it and the knights are described at being very quick.

[Wyddr]

A Darklance heavy DE list should be able to drop a knight in a single round of shooting, as long as the lances are mounted on vehicles.

I'd run the math on that one. I've found that you need 12 Darklances (on average) to take down a Land Raider without cover. Say you somehow managed 18 DL all in range of one knight at the same time (without losing any along the way--good luck), you're looking at 12 hits, 6 damage, and then some portion of those will be bounced off by Ion Shields (because there's no way all 18 get side arc). That Knight is still probably alive.

Also, Daemons do have a chance at taking down a knight in combat with a Daemon Prince.  Their high WS and psychic powers mean they can usually tear one apart before they get a chance to strike back.  Just hope he doesn't survive and roll a 6 on his stomp.

Well, the only psychic power that matters in this instance is really Iron Arm, and there's reasonable odds you won't get it. You can also hope for Touch of Uncreation, but again it's just a dice game. With Smash being limited to one attack only...I dunno. Dicey, very dicey. Also: aren't Knights S10? I thought they were. If so, you don't need that 6 to just splat a DP. 

And the rational for them moving 12" is simple.  They are 1 man titans.  If you read the one HH book where they talk about the civil war on Mars, they have a Knightly House in it and the knights are described at being very quick.

I know what the fluff says, yeah. I just think its a bit ridiculous, is all.

[Cavalier]

Can they be killed? Yes. Are they extremely powerful? Absolutely. Knights are a game changer anyway you slice it. My meta is pretty mild but even still every list I play has a unit ready to face to them. I think their movement is what puts it over-the-top for me. I think paired with Imperial Guard the Knights become devastating... just an insane volume of fire, coupled with units that ignore cover from orders, bubble wrapped to deter deepstrikers etc. they are a ridiculous boon to IG and also give them a huge boost in the CC department as well.

[Spectral Arbor]

I've played against Dark Angels [Termie Heavy] with a single knight a couple of times, and I've played against White Scars with 1/2 Knights a few times now.

I've been trying to figure out Blood Angels while doing so. I've also been mixing some IG bits in, as well, and also played straight Guard once.

My experience is that you need to tailor your list towards them. You can't make an "all comers" list at 1850 points that can handle 2 Knights when you don't have one. The very best thing to kill a Knight, is another Knight.

At 75 points more than a pair of LRBT's, you have the same effective shooting power, the same number of hull points. You have comparable armour, shooting wise.

You also get...

1: A decent Invul save against shooting.
2: Double the movement.
3: Effective immunity to the damage table. A MEQ with Lascannon has a 3.7% chance to inflict an extra d3 HP, cut in half if on the Ion Shield side.
4: Full fire power down to the last HP. When 1/2 Russes die, you lose half your shots, not even counting shaken / stunned / Weapon Destroyed effects.
5: Effective immunity to assault. I mean, compared to a Russ? 3 more points of Armour, a WS, plus you're going to pound the bloody stool out of the guy charging you / being charged.


The only "weakness" of single facing shield requires a "sacrifice" unit that is going to knowingly do dick all to the target... and it's going to be your strongest shooting, let's not kid ourselves.

So looking at it from the BA side of things, I'd need to drop 3 Melta-Assault Squads with TRIPLE Melta [Total of 360 points] around a single Knight to reasonably try to off it in one turn. By reasonable, I mean that with 9 shots, I should hit 6 times, inflict 5 damage results [pre shield!] and hope to get an explodes or two from those hits... and pray that the shield doesn't make that effort all for naught.

I'm committing all FA choices to this single effort, and 3 pods, meaning I must take at least 2 other pods to ensure I can do this first turn... with no backup for them.

I don't have great odds of success, and failure to kill that one knight will then result in...

Knight moves, double taps BC onto one squad, probably wiping them. "Split fires" the stubbers at squad 2, so he can assault them. Charges them, probably wipes them [5 man squad, no way to fight back really] and maybe even works it to stomp into the 3rd unit.

So having commited the very best of my AT to the cause, if I don't take down one Knight first turn I have no real way to continue killing the 2nd Knight, as I can't catch it. It just runs away from my Melta, blasting them with a 2x BC.

[Gotta run back to work, I'll try to finish this tonight. Knights are brutally difficult to deal with from a TAC perspective.]

Carrying on...

A Marine with a Powerfist, that gets 3 Attacks, would have a 58% chance to do no damage to a Knight, a [very close to] 34% chance to inflict a single HP, and then an 8% chance to cause more than one HP to it... at Initiative 1. Why did he charge a Knight? I dunno.

So the Knight presumably charges them with a powerful HoW hit, then attacks landing an average of 2 hits that typically wound... and then stomps on the unit. It's reasonable to expect a 5 man MEQ unit to be reduced to a single survivor in a typical round. Lulz, then you're tied up in CC during your opponent's shooting phase, huzzah!

The Knight creates an effective "don't go here" zone 24" accross, if not more. It can move a foot one direction, or the other, and then charge. I don't know Daemon Princes that well, but they need St 8 at a minimum to be any kind of real threat to a Knight. At S8, WS 6, that Prince has a 22% chance per attack to cause harm. With 8 attacks, that Prince still has a 13% chance to do 0 HP.

Without factoring "Explodes" results into the mix, a Prince with 8 Attacks has the following odds of damage:

0 HP = 13%
1 HP = 31%
2 HP = 31%
3+HP = 25%

For what it's worth, with 8 Attacks the odds of NOT inflicting an Explodes result at all are 86%, so you usually wont inflict an explodes result, even with the equivalent of 8 PF attacks at high WS.

The best thing to tarpit them with is tactical marines, of all things, simply owing to most stomps only punching through Carapace armour. Anybody taking 10 man units of Tacticals these days? That wants to try to tarpit a Knight... that's shot them 2 or 4 times with a Battle Cannon, for a couple of turns? Nobody?

So you can take them with Assault Terminators... eventually. Many turns to do so, and probably at the cost of a 6-8 man unit of them.

Laughably, because they're so tall, it's easy for them to march into a ruin mid-field, claim cover from all directions, and still have a great field of fire, because the end of the cannon will poke out of the cover they're in. They don't have to worry about a firing point like a Dreadnaught might. So you could run [probably outside of cover for a turn or two] at a Knight, get shot 2 or 4 times with a Battle Cannon, to try to oust it from a Ruin. Of course, if you DIDN'T kill it while within 12" of it, you'll be double-tapped and then charged [HoW, D-Class Attacks, Stomps]. Vehicles are absolutely annihilated in CC against Knights, as 4/6 stomps inflict an auto-pen, while 1/6 destroys you outright. That of course assumes you survived the D-Class attacks at initiative, as a vehicle that's not a sure thing by any means.

Board control like a... I don't even know. Face off against a pair of them sometime. It's not fun.

With a pair of them, you have incredible board control. If you spend half your points on Knights between 1500 and 2000 points, you've got a list that will be tough to beat.

[Need to pick up kids from the sitter's, I'll come back to this tonight. I'm still not done. ]

Enter the most powerful, seemingly unbeatable list I've ever played against. No really, it is. I've never played against a list that I actually asked my opponent to not play again, except this one. In 20+ years of playing GW games, I've never said, "I won't play against that again without warning. I'll just quit and we can play something else." I did that against this list.


1850 pts

750 - 2x Knight Paladin

[White Scar Marines]

225 - Chapter Master: Bike, Power Fist, Shield Eternal

125 - Storm Talon: TL AC, Skyhammer Missiles

125 - Storm Talon: TL AC, Skyhammer Missiles

184 - Bike Squad [4+1]: Meltabombs, Combi-Melta, 2x Grav Guns, Multi-Melta [Attack Bike]

184 - Bike Squad [4+1]: Meltabombs, Combi-Melta, 2x Grav Guns, Multi-Melta [Attack Bike]

184 - Bike Squad [4+1]: Meltabombs, Combi-Melta, 2x Grav Guns, Multi-Melta [Attack Bike]

[73 more points spent somehow... maybe CC upgrades, I think?]


That's the jist of it, anyhow. Chapter Master joins a squad. Knights lead the charge, with the bikes just behind. Highlights of the list...

Everything Jinks, at a MEQ level, except the Knights and they just get an Invul instead.
List is effectively immune to terrain, as bikes have skilled rider, Talons fly over top, and Knights move "quickly" through terrain anyhow, not to mention they love getting a cover save.
Knights are weak against flyers. Storm Talons are some of the most points efficient anti-flyer in the game.
Everything is extra tough. Bikes, Knights, or hard to hit Flyers. Oh, and then they Jink.
If something moves up beside the Knights, the bikes can move to intercept with Grav, Melta, AND assault. If they're stuck in cc, they can Hit and Run away 2/3 times, so that the Knight can Double-Tap, the Bikes can shoot, and then everything assaults again! FUN!
By working in waves, if a Bike squad needs to Jink, they can retreat and another unit can quickly redeploy to take over the shooting... or they can just jink and still assault with bonus strength HoW attacks.

So while surrounding the Knights seems like a good idea, you then place yourself in range to be shot up by bikes, then assaulted by "everything" that then breaks off and you can then be shot again. Not that much survives being in close proximity to 4 battle cannon shots, 18 Grav shots, 3-6 melta shots... and then being assaulted by everything.

FREE Bonus! Hiding something out of LOS? The Chapter Master can drop Max Strength, Melta-AP Pie plate on you, even while moving because he has relentless and it's Barrage! JOY!


So Knights are powerful, and if they take up 1/2 ish of your points you can then take support units to offset their VERY limited weaknesses.

Terminators are good against them, except for the Melta-Version that I haven't faced. Grav just laughs hysterically at them, though.

Flyers are good, but if you take counter-flyers you're set. Even a pair or trio of Hunters / Hydras are good.

Nothing wins in CC against them, except maybe Assault Termies, and they're slow enough that the Knight can just walk away from them, killing whatever it needs to on the way.

They're the "perfect" unit, and easily worth 500 points each, in my opinion. They're full throttle until the last HP is gone, and that takes a lot of effort that tends towards the suicidal end of use... so you don't have anything left to take on the 2nd one. I very much do not enjoy playing against them. I'm going to proxy 3 in the next game I play against my friend with the above list, to try to prove a point about how "unfun" they are to play against. That's my rant.