Topic: Spirit Stones in 5th? Worth the Cost?

[stezerok]

So I've been seeing this around with a lot of the Mechanized armies, that many people aren't sure whether Spirit Stones are necessary now that SMF is only gained when moving Flat Out, and even then our vehicles aren't dependent upon it for survival, especially not with the changed damage table. My question is, are Spirit Stones still worth the cost? At first I thought, "of course!", but as I think about why people might  be questioning them, I'm also wondering.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

[Gwaihir]

I think the stones are more important for serpents than prisms with falcons sort of sitting in the middle.  You don't want your transport sitting somewhere stunned when it is supposed to be moving stuff.  Stones don't really help the prism do its job, they are more defensive.

The upgrade that makes less sense to me is holofields.

[tzeentchling]

People tend to throw firepower at our vehicles.  Every now and then, that 2 (or a glancing 4) will come up on the table.  The ability to continue moving when needed is still vital, I think.  If I was fielding 4+ serpents, I might consider dropping them - they can't fire at every vehicle.  Otherwise, they stay on mine.

[flipONE]

I think the stones are more important for serpents than prisms with falcons sort of sitting in the middle.  You don't want your transport sitting somewhere stunned when it is supposed to be moving stuff.  Stones don't really help the prism do its job, they are more defensive.

The upgrade that makes less sense to me is holofields.

Why would you consider holofields less useful? They still increase survivability, just not as broken as it used to be.

I agree with Stones being less useful on a Fire Prism, and definitely important for Wave Serpents.

[srintuar]

For transports: Yes, good

For Gunships: Not bad, but not critical

For Squadrons of walkers or vypers: Useless  (you get the effect for free)

Other have already mentioned that its a nice gamble to leave them off. Sure it might hurt you a bit if you get unlucky, but in a larger army you can afford a whole free unit from the points savings.

[Gwaihir]

I think the stones are more important for serpents than prisms with falcons sort of sitting in the middle.  You don't want your transport sitting somewhere stunned when it is supposed to be moving stuff.  Stones don't really help the prism do its job, they are more defensive.

The upgrade that makes less sense to me is holofields.

Why would you consider holofields less useful? They still increase survivability, just not as broken as it used to be.

I agree with Stones being less useful on a Fire Prism, and definitely important for Wave Serpents.

I don't think they are worth their points.  The vehicles are durable enough without them and by the time you sink all those points into the stones and fields, you are close to having enough point for another unit.  Two falcons or prisms for that matter spend 90 points for fields and stones.  Save those points and you are just 25 points shy of getting a prism, or 10 points shy of getting a serpent.  Now that you can be penetrated they lose some of their value.  Pens destroy 1/9 of the time now (1/18 if you get a cover save).  Glances before only destroyed 1/36 of the time.  So the effectiveness of stones has been reduced 50%-75%.  (I didn't factor in glances which will close the gap a bit, but not entirely).  The points of the upgrade have remained the same, but the cost has not.

I never bought the overpowered bit either.  You paid 200 points for a transport that could only transport 6 models and would only shoot about 1/2 the time.  But even if it was overpowered it wasn't 50% or 25% of what it should have cost.

You don't need HF/SS on a falcon so much anymore because it can't score anymore so isn't that big a deal if it dies.  Serpent transport just fine, particularly since you can keep them in reserve if you are worried about being shot.  HF/SS are a way to try to keep the vehicle alive, but doing so isn't that valuable if it isn't shooting.  The prism, if it loses its gun, and that is not all that unlikely with th HF, has mostly outlived its usefulness and now is an overpriced torpedo or vyper or something.

I just don't think HFs are justified for the price you pay.

[flipONE]

I don't think they are worth their points.  The vehicles are durable enough without them and by the time you sink all those points into the stones and fields, you are close to having enough point for another unit.  Two falcons or prisms for that matter spend 90 points for fields and stones.  Save those points and you are just 25 points shy of getting a prism, or 10 points shy of getting a serpent.  Now that you can be penetrated they lose some of their value.  Pens destroy 1/9 of the time now (1/18 if you get a cover save).  Glances before only destroyed 1/36 of the time.  So the effectiveness of stones has been reduced 50%-75%.  (I didn't factor in glances which will close the gap a bit, but not entirely).  The points of the upgrade have remained the same, but the cost has not.

I never bought the overpowered bit either.  You paid 200 points for a transport that could only transport 6 models and would only shoot about 1/2 the time.  But even if it was overpowered it wasn't 50% or 25% of what it should have cost.

You don't need HF/SS on a falcon so much anymore because it can't score anymore so isn't that big a deal if it dies.  Serpent transport just fine, particularly since you can keep them in reserve if you are worried about being shot.  HF/SS are a way to try to keep the vehicle alive, but doing so isn't that valuable if it isn't shooting.  The prism, if it loses its gun, and that is not all that unlikely with th HF, has mostly outlived its usefulness and now is an overpriced torpedo or vyper or something.

I just don't think HFs are justified for the price you pay.

I do see where you're coming from, but I guess its from different schools of thought. While you consider 200 points for a 6 person transport to be overpriced, I found it useful (and calming) to have something out there that I KNEW would stick around, regardless of how often it shot (I found that paying for the extra Shuriken Cannon was actually the kneecapper here). It was also 200 points that I considered VP denial due to its durability.

But I'm also a person who doesn't mind spending points for dependability's sake.

In addition, this all changed when 5th came out. So I agree with the consensus, that HF/SS for a Falcon is now an overpriced option that doesn't give as much as it used to. Wave Serpents should take it for common sense's sake. I don't have enough experience to put in any thoughts about the Fire Prism (truthfully).

I didn't really want to start a different thread for this (as it pertains to vehicle upgrades), so what's everyone's deal w/ Vectored Engines or Star Engines, are these worth the points now? With the 5th changes?

[nil]

I think it would suck to have a WS full of banshees race forward, get stunned, and be stuck there, with its cargo unable to assault.

Unless the rules have changed re: stunned/shaken and disembarking?

[srintuar]

The rules have charged alot with regards to stunning: Its less likely.

Any vehicle damage now will only cause it one time in 6.
In 4th edition, 100% of penetrating hits also caused stunning as a side effect.

so its less likely, in that way.

[Gwaihir]

How often did our vehicles take penetrating hits though.  Pens were so rare, they really weren't a consideration.  The real risk with getting stunned was that next turn you couldn't move to maintain the SMF bonus.  Now it doesn't really matter if you aren't moving if you have cover so getting stunned isn't as dangerous for the vehicle.

[Defenestratus]

I'm going to disagree with some opinions here and say that I'll be putting both HF and SS's on my Prisms (but not on my falcons, those are sitting on the shelf).

Here's my rationale...

Being able to stay out of range or out of LOS of dedicated enemy AT will be more difficult in this edition thanks to TLOS, and outflanking and running and everyone's increase in mobility overall.  Being able to Move up to 12" with the prism and still shoot its big gun is a big advantage in regards to being able to find "safe" areas to dispose of those pesky shaken and stunned results.

And there's where the SS/HF come into play.  With the HF's you're very likely to get a 1 or 2 on the damage table, and the spirit stones will allow you to get out of harms way next round so you can recover with guns blazing.

[Hypopheralcus]

I'm pro-holofield as well. The HF still doubles the falcon's chance of surviving. And not being a scoring unit is not that much of an problem if you turboboost your holofalcon onto a mission objective in one of the last turns to contest it which puts the opponent under great pressure to remove that tank.

[srintuar]

Defenestratus,

If you play on maps where the stones work to your advantage, then more power to you.

I think they are good, just not critical for many situations.

Right now im actually making some "5th edition terrain" myself, so perhaps movement will be critical for me soon. (5th edition terrain == ridiculously big hills)

[Defenestratus]

Right now im actually making some "5th edition terrain" myself, so perhaps movement will be critical for me soon. (5th edition terrain == ridiculously big hills)

you Aint kidding...

It was actually a mixed bag for my game group.  We had OOGLES of 2ed terrain that had been sitting around collecting dust.  When 5th came around, we brushed off the old terrain and it worked just as well as it did in 2ed for the purposes of starting arguments, err.. I mean playing a fun game of lawyerham... err warhammer

[bca11]

Who else gets an ability as good?  Venerable dreads get a similar ability, but they have to choose a reroll and pick the second result, even if its worse.  We get the best of 2d6.

[Dinendal]

I think if you use the cities of death ruins you will have lots of chance to black LOS to your tanks. Unless you get really unlucky and find your opponent looking through 3 windows and having a peek on your falcon you will be fine.

Spirit stones: waveserpent and if you plan to use your falcon as a primary transport (which is stupid)

Holo-field: Falcon and fire prism = a must.

[Gutstikk]

Actually, I've completely done away with most of the upgrades, though further games will tell if I want to add some back. My most upgraded is the Serpent [Shuriken cannon, stones and Star Engines], which makes it the medium total cost at 125pts. Next is the Falcon, with a missile launcher [armament] and star engines [upgrade], also the most expensive total cost at 150pts. Finally is the Fire Prism, the cheapest at a meager 115pts.

[Dinendal]

Actually, I've completely done away with most of the upgrades, though further games will tell if I want to add some back. My most upgraded is the Serpent [Shuriken cannon, stones and Star Engines], which makes it the medium total cost at 125pts. Next is the Falcon, with a missile launcher [armament] and star engines [upgrade], also the most expensive total cost at 150pts. Finally is the Fire Prism, the cheapest at a meager 115pts.

I think it might be something to consider.

To get another prism for instance

[Draza]

You don't need HF/SS on a falcon so much anymore because it can't score anymore so isn't that big a deal if it dies.

Falcon still seems useful to me.
*Its still incredibly survivable, allowing for denial of KP
*Can contest objectives
*Even when shaken, can easily deliver a strength 10 ramming hit and survive
*Can pick up depleted troop units (such as Avengers, you only need 4 to die) and then park on an objective. You can score in a transport and the Falcon/Land raider is the safest place to be

[stezerok]

You don't need HF/SS on a falcon so much anymore because it can't score anymore so isn't that big a deal if it dies.

Falcon still seems useful to me.
*Its still incredibly survivable, allowing for denial of KP
*Can contest objectives
*Even when shaken, can easily deliver a strength 10 ramming hit and survive
*Can pick up depleted troop units (such as Avengers, you only need 4 to die) and then park on an objective. You can score in a transport and the Falcon/Land raider is the safest place to be

I think you are missing the fact that armed with a BL or EML it's AT potential is greater than the Fire Prism, and it really becomes a work of art...

But I think your last point is the one that I find most interesting. I figure anytime now-a-days that you can take a wounded squad and "rescue" them or relocate them, then you are doing yourself and a service, and if it's a troops unit, it could put a squad far from the objective, right to it. It's a pity that tanks cannot move Flat Out when a squad embarks...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok