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Author Topic: Phoenix Lord HQs  (Read 2705 times)

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Offline The Blighter

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Phoenix Lord HQs
« on: August 3, 2005, 02:55:50 PM »
Today I rediscovered those while reading the codex, as soon as I reached Asurmen I knew I have to have one in my army. send a farseer along him and you got yourself a killing machine. I found quite a few ways to use Baharroth as well tho they mainly included the exarch delivery system.

anyway, what are your thoughts about the Phoenix Lords? do you use them or are they just a point sink?
« Last Edit: August 5, 2005, 10:14:25 AM by The Blighter »

Offline Newton

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #1 on: August 3, 2005, 03:10:06 PM »
Well, they ARE cool...

But, they are also a point sink especially for some...

The problem with some of them, is their cost includes ALL the Exarch abilities plus another... this however means they might have some...less than useful ones, or ones WAY out of character for the normal aspect (Jain Zair for example with Warshout, Maugen Ra with Crushing Blow, etc).

Most of them are simply upgraded exarchs that act as Independent characters.  The exception mainly being Maugen Ra.  As cool as he is, I would never put him with Reapers...  Maugen Ra is a close combat beast, which is completely OPPOSITE of what Dark Reapers actually are...

Also, they are ALL Close Range models, none have a range of weaponry over 24", and most excel in close combat, meaning that the turns it takes to wade your way to the opponent takes away from their use, with the exception of Baharoth due to his longer movement...

While cool, and I have been collecting them (Pesky trying to find them all...) I usually just run a much cheaper HQ in the form of a Farseer or Avatar...

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Offline Ikarus

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #2 on: August 4, 2005, 05:15:17 AM »
I for my part prefer to build army lists without relying on special characters. Also, if you have special characters, your opponent might as well get some. And I don't really want to know what other races can pull out of their hat in that department (more often then not it will be more powerful than a PL, I am afraid...).

Phoenix lords are definetely expensive and have fixed equipment (not always good combos). For their points, you have covered a good portion of what is needed to field another aspect squad or even a tooled up Falcon.

If you could toy around just a little bit with the stuff/powers they have, it would be more interesting, but alas, that is not possible. :(

While cool, and I have been collecting them (Pesky trying to find them all...) I usually just run a much cheaper HQ in the form of a Farseer or Avatar...

Why is it difficult to find them? You can just order them from the Online Store from GW (Eldar Archive), or from GW mailorder...(at least in Germany)


Ikarus
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #3 on: August 4, 2005, 05:19:49 AM »
pheonix lords are a luxury! they are incredibly expensive and rarely make their points back.

they are cool though.

besides, they are special characters so you need your opponents permission to use them. the only exception to this is maugan ra, who can be used without your opponents permission in an Ulthwe Strike Force. however, as someone here quoted "he must have bounced a cheque when he was younger and now he's paying for it" i mean, why else would he carry around a shuriken cannon!

Offline Just Charles

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #4 on: August 4, 2005, 05:28:11 AM »
Well, Karandras was cool when he was still able to infiltrate with a Banshee squad... that was pretty awesome!

But generally, Phoenix lords don't make back their points, and the only aspect where a Phoenix would be interesting doesn't have one: The Warp Spiders!
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Offline Ikarus

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #5 on: August 4, 2005, 06:28:39 AM »
On second thoughts, I guess that Fuegan could do rather well. He is an excellent addition to his aspect and can accompany the Fire Dragons in addition to (or instead of) an Exarch, adding the following goodies:

- he is well geared for taking down tanks (Firepike, fastshot, tankhunter), and if he succeeds in doing so, he can actually make back his points rather quickly.

- he is also good at HtH (burning fist, his axe), which comes in handy as Fire Dragons are likely to get into CC due to their short range. Also joining his aspect means the whole bunch becomes fearless (is this the correct term for it in English?), helping them even more in CC. ;)

- point-wise, you get more bang for the buck than for -say- baharroth, and he is not that much more expensive then Asurmen or Maugan Ra...

Ikarus
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Offline Saviour RED

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #6 on: August 5, 2005, 03:33:28 AM »
I don't know what you guys are complaining about: Maugan Ra rules!
He is a HTH beast, granted, and a fantastic one at that. Any chance I get, he's in the forefront of my army.

Fuegen is a also a monster. Esp with fast shot and the firepike!

Asurmen is okay. He's tough as nails and (quite) impossible to kill in HTH.

While they're not entirely useful (or make back their points totally) Phoenix Lords are a cool addition to any army. Just that extra flavour makes the game more appealing.

What's more, Eldar characters are not exactly uber-gods, so most opponents don't mind the 100 pts sink.

Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #7 on: August 5, 2005, 03:37:46 AM »
true. consider that a PL cost about as much as a moderate farseer. and can cost about half as much as some of the space marine characters im spotting running around the battle fields!

Offline Ikarus

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #8 on: August 5, 2005, 04:25:58 AM »
Hi oink!

consider that a PL cost about as much as a moderate farseer.

Your average moderate Farseer costs something like 130-160 pts?? Gosh, what do you equip him with? ;)

But back on topic: If you are willing to take the path of needing your opponents approval, there might be a nice alternative to a PL...

Take a Great Harlequin and equip him with some Riveblades/Powerblades, some pistol and whatever else you want (however be careful not to get crazy with all the options, or you'll end up paying the same points as for a PL).

You can get a fairly good HtH charater for around 80-90 pts that would be a great addition to CC-squads, especially Striking Scorpions, as he can compensate for their lack of power weapons. Together with the Exarchs claw you would have a lot of can-opening abilities...

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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #9 on: August 5, 2005, 07:08:15 AM »
hi

as to the farseer, witchblade, pistol, fortune, spirit stones, mind war ghosthelm tolls up about 136points. thats moderate considering you CAN if you really wanted to, take all the powers and then some runes too! (plus mind war is a pretty cheap power.)

anyways, yes, a harlequin can be made to be a pretty evil CC opponent. but the thing with the PL are that they are just as useful shooting as in combat, so are very flexible. also, they take up a HQ slot as opposed to another elites, meaning you can have more aspects!!!

at the end of the day, a PL joining his relative aspect that also includes an exarch is a formidable combination. but like you say, it needs permission and it also tends to be very expensive.

it would be nice to see them become standard HQ choices. However, it seems likely there will be a new type of HQ, the Autarch (being talked about onn another post) which is kinda like a PL, but instead of specialising in one aspect, they are the master of war, having experienced many aspects.

Offline Capamaru

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #10 on: August 5, 2005, 09:13:57 AM »
Your question is not right. You should ask... in how many points do u think I should use a phoenix lord?
Cause using one in a 1500 points game is a risk and you are not guaranteed to make your money back especially with the luck of an invunarable saving throw. On more points (2000 and more) the lord isnt such a big chunk of your army list and you can be more relaxed with him. Now plzzz dont ask which one is better cause this have been brought up 234151551234 on this forum. They are all great  ;D
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #11 on: August 5, 2005, 12:01:09 PM »
yep, but big games usually means less of an impact. now, i know that i would always rather a second farseer than a pheonix lord in bigger games. the benefits are far greater in my opinion.

Offline BrathaLir

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #12 on: August 5, 2005, 08:07:37 PM »
PL and Avatars are currently a decent choice in 1500+ points (Avatar is only really fluffy at 1500+).  Why?  Farseers have a lot of problems with psychic hoods right now.  110-130 points is a lot of your force balled up into a character that only gets off maybe 3 powers in an entire game.  I'd say that as 4th stands now, Eldar warrior lists (no psychers) are probably more viable than they have been in a long while...the only compelling reason to take a Farseer as it stands is for Warlocks.  Course, then your HQ is a much bigger % of points as well. 

The only caveat to using PL is that you must design part of your list around their use, as they are very poor stand alone characters.  In most cases, it is necessary to have an appropriate Aspect squad with the Lord.  This helps him survive pot shots better, and buffs the squad.  The exceptions here are Asurman and Maugan-Ra.  Both of these PL are actually better away from their squads: Asurman is a great "roadblock-holdup" defensive character best used with large storm squads (maybe also Avatar), while Maugan-Ra is much better with offensive HtH squads like scorps.   


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Offline azore24

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #13 on: August 5, 2005, 09:03:38 PM »
my kar is always giving back his points on the small 610 battles we fight, but then he really just cleans up the heavies so my WL can finish totaly unaffected  ;D
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Offline alitherion

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Re: Phoenix Lord HQs
« Reply #14 on: August 7, 2005, 04:24:09 AM »
hmmmmmmmmmmm..... Depends on whether they make sense in the army. Im sick of seeing baharroth running round wit banshees or Karandras in other aspect squads. Also try to make sure u have AT LEAST one FULL squad of the appropriate aspect otherwise its just being cheesey.As to using a phoenix lord  & a wraithlord in under 1500pts, ur the type of person that gives eldar players a bad rep.
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