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Author Topic: Your thoughts on what the US government.  (Read 4155 times)

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Offline danscan

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #40 on: March 2, 2006, 01:10:32 PM »
I am so tired of hearing that the US was just messing with X nation in south america like nothing else was going on.  USSR was also doing the same damn thing.  In fact every major nation has messed with another nation.  England, France, Germany, Russia, etc.. 

So a bunch of crap about how US messed with Nation X exspecially during the cold war is crap.  USSR was doing the same thing. 

Back to government. 
I believe we have a problem of wording.  In the Paralamentry system the term of government more equivalent to our term of adminstration.  While when I mention government I mean anyone that gets elected.  So when I said the government gets to pick the parties I ment that those in the elected and un-elected public service and decide who gets the money.  Either way you don't have the first amendment.   Which is strongly in favor of free-political speech.  So preventing an organization from buying airtime to have a message for their cannidate would be deemed unconstitutional.

Quote
Until Fox started blasting that Bush won, the politicos of the other news agencies were calling it to close to call, not Gore won (Which he probably did, if black people in the southern states counted as voters ).
Did you look at the times.  2AM Fox moved florida from Gore to Bush.  Yes Fox had florida in the Gore column.And remember many other stations had the state in the Gore column (7pm est).  They also announced a winner before the polls closed (8pm est).  Florida is in two time zones and the later time zone is heavily conservative. 

Black people do count as voters.  Felons do not. http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm#Florida_Purge_of_Convicted_Felons_from_Voter_RollsAlso about thirty studies went into the vote count for florida.  Two or three showed gore won.  But that was only if they only recounted the heavily democratic counties not all. 
USA today did another study.  Which stated that Gore would have won if the ballots were not confusing.  Unfortunately for Gore the confusing ballots were a type and design approved by another democrate and not some vast right wing conspiracy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-05-10-recountmain.htm

Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #41 on: March 2, 2006, 02:30:24 PM »
So a bunch of crap about how US messed with Nation X exspecially during the cold war is crap.  USSR was doing the same thing.

That would stand up well in court.

"Why did you smash his head in, causing brain damage?"
"Well EVERYONE ELSE was doing it.  I didn't want to miss out on the fun."

The point of the USSR is also totally irrelevant for the simple reason that this is a discussion about the USA, not the USSR.  If you feel so strongly on the subject, start a new thread criticising the foreign policy of the USSR in the Cold War, rather than dragging it through an unrelated thread.


Back to government. 
I believe we have a problem of wording.  In the Paralamentry system the term of government more equivalent to our term of adminstration.  While when I mention government I mean anyone that gets elected.  So when I said the government gets to pick the parties I ment that those in the elected and un-elected public service and decide who gets the money.  Either way you don't have the first amendment.   Which is strongly in favor of free-political speech.  So preventing an organization from buying airtime to have a message for their cannidate would be deemed unconstitutional.

NONE of this proves that out Government systems are the same.  NONE of this proves that the USA has the best Democratic system.

Clarify on air time:  campaigning which is done through the BBC is given equal coverage.  The BBC is funded by the Public, rather than by sponsors.  Sponsored Television is free to do as they see fit, however the factor of the BBC gives greater balance.
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Offline danscan

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #42 on: March 2, 2006, 04:09:58 PM »
Quote
NONE of this proves that out Government systems are the same.  NONE of this proves that the USA has the best Democratic system.

Clarify on air time:  campaigning which is done through the BBC is given equal coverage.  The BBC is funded by the Public, rather than by sponsors.  Sponsored Television is free to do as they see fit, however the factor of the BBC gives greater balance.

I never said they were same.  I said they were similiar.  Nor did I say its the best.  It has its flaws but so does yours. 

The BBC is very different from US public television.   Nobody watches our public television (I do but....). So they can't be compared.

Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #43 on: March 2, 2006, 04:15:41 PM »
I never said they were same.  I said they were similiar.  Nor did I say its the best.  It has its flaws but so does yours.

Selective memory perhaps?

It might be a bad system but its the best that is out there.

The system is the same.
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Offline danscan

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #44 on: March 2, 2006, 04:23:43 PM »
I was refering to a democratic system.  Not a specific system exactly like the US.  Meaning democratic systems are the best out there.  Hence also the comment about a one-party system. 

And if you want to get real specific then just about everyone has a different system.  The point was that the primary engine was similiar.  In order to have power you have to go to the people and have them elected.  Which requires advertisement.  Through TV or just shaking hands.

Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #45 on: March 2, 2006, 04:28:33 PM »
No, you don't have to elect through people.  As I said, Switzerland runs on Direct Democracy.  Issues are voted on by the people, rather than representatives voted for by the people.  Arguably Representative Democracy is a sullying of the democratic idyll.

Not to mention that a Democracy is not proven the best system.  Arguably an insightful and benevolent dictator is equally good with the sole difference being that he's not voted in.  You don't HAVE to be voted in to work for the good of the people.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2006, 04:30:01 PM by Fal - Team Alpha »
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Offline danscan

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #46 on: March 6, 2006, 11:02:15 AM »
A small very well educated country like switzerland can work through a direct democracy.  But 300 Million people or even 20 million of varying education level, the system of direct democracy will not work. 

A common misconception is that a benevolent dictator is best, but inorder to be a dictator he must payoff various groups, and constiuents.  Hitler's dictatorship was far from effeicent everybody had pet projects and each section of government became a fiefdom where that minister ran it with an iron fist.  Likwise almost all larger dictatorships still end up with payoffs to friends and enemies alike.  The difference is that the dictator can not be voted out of office in 4 years. 

Also absolute power curropts absolutely.  And as with most dictators that start out good eventually become evil.

Offline -Makenshi-

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #47 on: March 6, 2006, 11:38:37 AM »
A common misconception is that a benevolent dictator is best, but inorder to be a dictator he must payoff various groups, and constiuents.  Hitler's dictatorship was far from effeicent everybody had pet projects and each section of government became a fiefdom where that minister ran it with an iron fist.  Likwise almost all larger dictatorships still end up with payoffs to friends and enemies alike.  The difference is that the dictator can not be voted out of office in 4 years. 

Also absolute power curropts absolutely.  And as with most dictators that start out good eventually become evil.

All true, but what are the alternatives? Are these alternatives better? Are they 'right'?

America uses neo-Colonialisation to manipulate other countries, both politically and economically (although they are not the only ones they are the 'big dady' and do it far more that other countries). An example of this is 'the golden carrot on a stick' (i.e. Aid), all aid given by the 'rich countries' (the G8 ones especially) has strings attached, such as buying x goods from x country or adopting a pro-x attitude

Another example is that with the UK the amount of aid itself often corrisponds with the amount of weapons a country buys from us, rather than how much they need the aid. This means the onyl 'true' aid, is that given by independant organisations (charities for example).

If I could be bothered I could come up with dozens more examples, but I think I've made my point, America (and many other rich countries, including my own, the UK) can't take the moral high ground when it comes to dictators, not only have they backed and do back some dictators, but, through the subtly intricacies of aid, politics and econimics, they are manipulating other countries themselves.

~MTWC
« Last Edit: March 6, 2006, 11:40:42 AM by Makenshi »
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Offline danscan

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #48 on: March 6, 2006, 02:34:07 PM »
Quote
All true, but what are the alternatives? Are these alternatives better? Are they 'right'?
Not much.  Unless we find a human being that is not suspectible to the 7 deadly sins.  Democratic like governments keep the most people happy.  Not everyone gets what they want but not everyone gets denied either.

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #49 on: March 6, 2006, 02:38:34 PM »
Quote
All true, but what are the alternatives? Are these alternatives better? Are they 'right'?
Not much.  Unless we find a human being that is not suspectible to the 7 deadly sins.  Democratic like governments keep the most people happy.  Not everyone gets what they want but not everyone gets denied either.

Agreed, however I hate the 'holier than though' attitude most pro-democricy people have, mostly out of ignorance I have found, granted.

~MTWC
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Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #50 on: March 6, 2006, 03:29:18 PM »
A small very well educated country like switzerland can work through a direct democracy.  But 300 Million people or even 20 million of varying education level, the system of direct democracy will not work.

Countries change.  With the correct system America can reach similar levels of education (if that is the fashion you wish to phrase it).  Crossing out a system just because it's not instantly applicable is one of the major problems the modern world experiences.

A common misconception is that a benevolent dictator is best, but inorder to be a dictator he must payoff various groups, and constiuents.

Just because it is rare to see it done in a different fashion doesn't make it impossible.

Hitler's dictatorship was far from effeicent

It was also far from benevolent or insightful of popular opinion.  As with other things, such as Communism, a lack of things having been done correctly in the past does not make it an impossibility in the future.

Also absolute power curropts absolutely.

Most dictators?  None of the modern dictators have started out political life as genuinely good people.  Hitler, Mussolini, their campaigns were based on disproportional levels of nationalism and racism. Lenin technically wasn't the guy that caused the downfall of Tsarism, he simply capitalised.  And you'd be hard pushed to call him a nice guy, or to claim that he acted on nothing but good principles.  Past Dictators have been opportunists, putting on a happy front so that they can reach a position from where they can exact their domination.  Absolute power lets the people that take it show their true colours, without fear of recrimination.  A benevolent dictator would not be subject to such, on account of the fact he'd actually be benevolent.
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Offline danscan

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #51 on: March 6, 2006, 09:35:32 PM »
Benevolent Dictators and Communism are great theories the problem comes to be that they don't work in practice.  Given that all dictatorships will and have ended the same. And the only true communist state is hanging on by one charismatic indivisual they don't look like they will work either. (China is a big giant corporation.) Sure democracy has its problems and its own ineffecincies but it works.

Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #52 on: March 8, 2006, 05:51:57 PM »
And yet still the lack of success in the past proves nothing as they are not truely of such idylls.  Dictators rarely intend to be benevolent, Communist leaders generally install a highly weighted form of "communism".  The issue is not with the theory, but the people putting it into practice.  And China is hardly exactly the pinnacle of true Communist ideology itself, more a Capitalism re-thought.
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Re: Your thoughts on what the US government.
« Reply #53 on: March 9, 2006, 06:50:30 PM »
Ahhh Lenin. I don't think we'll ever really know the whole story with him. It's possible that he was the greatest dictator ever seen. He was both a man of action and a philosopher. He knew that there was the possibility of building a better world, but he also knew that to build it the way he thought best, sacrifices would have to be made along the way... Maybe. Or, he was an excellent opportunist and careful thinker who managed to convince an entire nation that he was nigh on godlike.

Doubt we'll ever find out the truth. The Communist experiment as he envisioned it has almost failed, and now it is time for other systems to try and succeed. China's doing well for itself, and other small Communist communities appear to be successful. I wonder what he'd say if he saw the world today...
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