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Offline Addinarr

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Apatheism
« on: April 9, 2006, 06:56:56 PM »
I was browsing the other religion thread, and then decided to give my own thoughts. Unfortunately, it became so long, and in some cases tangential, that I decided it deserved it's own thread. My friends call this a speech bomb, as I essentially bombard you with an overwhelming amount of reasoning that seems to come out of nowhere.

Disclaimer: Do not read if you don't want your faith disrupted.

Ok guys, this is not rocket science. Just bear with me....

God is supposed to be the perfect being. Omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. God, they say, is also perfectly good, but that cannot be. Certainly, when we say something is perfect, that carries certain positive implications. The perfect person, for example. The perfect food. The perfect day. It is a question of terminology.

When we say something is perfect, we mean that is the best at certain things. The definition of a perfect person can vary between individual to individual. For one, it can be someone who stands up for themselves, is determined, and is defiant of insurmountable odds. For another, it can be a person who is quiet, tactful, and refined. And yet another can be loud, humorous, and refreshingly upfront about touchy subjects. Or perhaps an easier example: I say the perfect ice cream is vanilla while you say chocolate. You can see from this that the definition of perfection varies wildly and often conflictions arise. Thus the idea of an entity which is perfect in everyone's eyes is an absolute impossibility. Unless of course one was to say God exists in such a state in which all rationality does not function and all requirements of perfection are one and the same. Which unfortunately also suggest that order and rationality are actually delusions while chaos is the true nature of things, which I doubt many are willing to believe. This argument, btw, was inspired and reworked from Descartes, which I find infinitely amusing because it's the argument he used to argue God exists while I am using it to prove the opposite.

The greatest failing of God's "goodly perfection" however is the conflict between it and the other qualities of God, those being omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is everywhere. He is the air you breathe, the food you eat, the blood in your veins. He is the blanket pulled over your eyes to hide-..er, wait. Wrong speech. He is everywhere at once. He knows all. He is all-powerful and virtually nothing happens without his approval.  The idea of omnipotence eliminates free will, as you would not even be able to breathe without his permission. Those of you who decided just now to hold your breath in order to defy God, ha ha. He made you do that too. That is what being all-powerful means. He does not share power. He can't, in fact. [Ah, delicious paradox]
[I'm not going to go into it in depth, but there's a tangent I would like to mention. Plato asks, "Is conduct right because God commands it? Or does God command it because it is right?". Either way you answer, it is unfavorable to the notion of God. One answer would mean God is NOT all-powerful, and is in fact governed by an even more powerful entity, and the other would mean God's commands are arbitrary. In another words, the man who holds the gun gets to decide what is crazy.]
Thus, Fate and God are really the same concepts. From this comes all sorts of obvious complications of His godly perfection. Simply put, nothing bad could ever happen due to his omnipotence. The history of Humanity has been full of unfortunate things, from the Black Plague to the Holocaust, from the continuing starvation of millions of children today to the first atomic bombings, from the typhoon that damned-near wiped out the Philippine coast to the removal of my wisdom teeth a few months ago [why give us wisdom teeth in the first place?]. So why do these things happen?

There are plenty of excuses that people toss around into the face of this question. “It was in God’s grand design” is one. “It prevented an even more painful disaster” is another. Oh, and my favorite, “It was the work of the Devil!”. Unfortunately, these explanations ultimately disprove the goodness of God and His Omnipotence. The first statement would mean that God was not above harming or killing billions and billions of not only human beings, but virtually single life form that ever existed for some unknown purpose. The second statement likewise cannot be true, for it contradicts that most widely believed tenet of God: He is infallible. It comes with the whole omnipotent package. To have the lesser of two evils to be done by God would mean that He has His limits. To be both perfectly good and omnipotent would essentially mean every single one of us should be living in a constant state of euphoria. Every breath should be sweet, every food or drink consumed to induce ecstasy, and every touch would be sufficient cause for orgasm. [Hmm…Slanneshi…] And we would never grow tired of it. Sadly [stop crying, you cultists], none of this is true, unless of course you’re on some kind of drug or just had a near-death experience. But even so, such feelings are transitory and fleeting.
Lastly, the Devil’s works are the works of God. Omnipotent, remember? God cannot share power. No one can contradict him or even creatively interpret His will. If God wants something does, Lo! It is done. If God wants something to never happen, it never comes to be. God created the Devil and controls his every move. God put the snake in Eden and set up the first woman to take the fall. Hell, God made snakes. The atom bomb was God’s pet project. The witch trials in Salem? God’s work. And for some reason, God didn’t like the TV show, Firefly. So it was pulled. [Why God, why??] God made Hitler the man he is known as today. He invented the phobias, including the fear of clowns. Many people like to suggest, not openly of course, that Satan is the opposite of God. What they are really implying is that the Devil is somehow every bit as powerful as God, essentially the darker side of the supernatural. Impossible. God had to have known that Lucifer or whatever you wish to call him would turn out badly. He would have had ample opportunity to wipe him out with essentially a twitch of his pinkie, metaphorically speaking.

What does this all mean? Well…basically it boils down to this: The God described in the Bible does not exist. [*Immediately gets pelted by hate-mail*] Well hey, sorry. But the God I have defined is, simply put, more powerful. And by definition, He would be the Perfect god. Not that you should be surprised anyway. The Bible was never written by God or any angels who have actually known him, after all. Instead, you have plain old humans who apparently have a good imagination and a wealth of historical references to work on. Besides, what kind of god creates a special class of angels, whose only purpose is to fly around him 24/7 for all eternity singing His praises? Does he have that low a self-esteem? Does he really need an eternal metaphorical ego hand-job? And what about all those people who don’t believe in him? According to my church-going neighbor, they go straight to hell. Well, that’s just shiny. You mean to tell me that only a few hundred million people get to go to heaven, while billions and billions of otherwise friendly, well-meaning, and virtuous individuals get the barbeque just because they believed in someone else? How petty!

Not to worry though, that doesn’t make Him the better god to believe in. After all, at least your God listens to what you have to say, however little. The God I have defined, if he exists at all? Well, you know all those prayers and wishes you make, hoping for better times? Well, my god is the one that ignores you. After all, He’s the one that created countless species, worlds, solar systems, species on other worlds, galaxies, the universe, maybe even the multiverse, and so on. You think He has time to listen to you? You infinitesimal speck of stardust whose entire existence is completely unworthy compared to all those other responsibilities? Really, which do you think He’s more likely to care about, you wanting that shiny new red convertible/hovercar for Christmas or keeping Galaxy# 186978 from falling into a black hole?

What does this mean for you? Live your life. It’s not like he is going to listen to you anyway, so you’re pretty much on your own. Your circumstances are what you make it. It may seem daunting at first, but hey, you’ve made it this far haven’t you? That’s my definition of Apatheism. I don’t care. [Well, technically I’m Agnostic/Apatheist: I don’t know and I don’t care. Not surprisingly, a lot of you may be apatheists as well, even if you do go to Church.] If there is this God who is so un-freaking-believably powerful, it’s like he doesn’t exist. So why bother? The Chinese have a saying, “Why question the Heavens, when we do not yet understand the Earth?”

God has not struck me down yet, so either I’m right and he doesn’t give a damn, or come one hot day, I’m getting an earful.

Well, perhaps the most important question that results from this reasoning is: “Is there an afterlife?”. Hmm…sorry, but no. Best you can hope for is reincarnation, but even that would be fairly useless to you since you wouldn’t remember a damned thing. Consider what your soul is. Traditionally, a soul is an everlasting divine thing. It is not your body. It is the hope that your mind, your very consciousness, will not cease to exist once your physical vessel fails to function. The hope that your life was not in vain. The fact that you are not your body is true, I think. What makes you who you are is not your appearance. If we lose a limb, a hand for example, do our souls feel subtracted by a hand’s fraction? Surely not! We can lose every single piece of our bodies, every organ replaces, except for one- the brain, and still be ourselves. Is this our soul then? Our brain? No, for the mind is not physical.
What the brain is- the container for our minds, does not differentiate us from any other human’s brains to a large extent [although it has been proven that the wrinkles and folds within a brain are unique to person to person, and may be molded by memory]. We are the sum of our experiences and our personalities. Consider our bodies further. Our eyes are camera lenses. Our hearts, the engines. Our digestive systems, the powerplants. The body is a mechanical device, a biological machine that drives our minds about, much like a man and his car. In this way, we resemble our greatest creations: AI. Following this thought, then can we not say our minds and souls are really highly advanced software? Then as software can range from the most highly advanced programs in supercomputers to the simplest within watches and cell phones, so too must souls range from the most complex and advanced of humans and dolphins, to the simplest of viruses and plants [and telemarketers].
Is it then feasible to believe that there is some reservoir for used and expended souls, considering the sheer amount of life on Earth, past and present, as well as likely countless other planets within the universe, and more, as life does as it does best: grow exponentially? No, I’m afraid not. Further, the God I have described, although certainly capable of such a thing, would have far more important things to do than deal with such an inefficient way to deal out justice, and moreover wouldn’t likely care in the first place. Thus, this life that you are living. Is. IT. There is no second chance. No “game over, would you like to try again?”. This should make life far more valuable to you, shouldn’t it? [Needless to say, there are some who would take this as a cue to start raping, murdering, and eating people alive. Let us hope you aren’t one of them. In every sense.]

Immortality is yet not unattainable. It is not impossible. You science fiction punks are likely already knowing where I’m going with this. The Machine, in many ways much like ourselves, are likely to be the next stage of evolution for Humanity. Like us, they can move, indeed faster and more agile than us. They can perceive the world, capable of observing and touching far better than we can. They too have intellect, and indeed have already exceeded the human mind in many ways and are fast making progress in others. Reasoning, memorization, calculations, even artistic abilities are available to certain computers now. Despite being utterly inorganic, they are very much like us, and will eventually exceed our accomplishments like all children.

There is one thing the Machine can do that we cannot. The Machine’s soul can be copied, transferred, and uploaded to other bodies. If we truly believe that the human soul is advanced software, then I believe the idea of transferring consciousness from flesh to machine isn’t so far-fetched. The human body, organic as it is, cannot complete with the machine. It adapts far too slowly, unpredictably, and is far too prone to failure. Where the organic body is fragile, the alloys of the machine can withstand the tests of time. This is the Mechanist’s answer to immortality, all too possible.

Thus will the race once known as Man progress, and thus finally withstand the degrading effects of time until the very end of reality itself.

Yeah, I've been playing to much Total Annihilation. I know it. Core FTW!

I shall now vanish and never be seen again.
« Last Edit: April 9, 2006, 07:03:40 PM by Addinarr »

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Offline [dixon]

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #1 on: April 9, 2006, 07:18:59 PM »
Yeah, I've been playing to much Total Annihilation. I know it. Core FTW!

Me too!  Core 4lyfe!
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Offline Col. Or'es'o (retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #2 on: April 9, 2006, 08:19:22 PM »
As you read, bear in mind I'm a superstrong atheist. I'm like Marvel Girl strong, so I dont like people making hashed attempts at destroying religion. There are better arguments out there, go learn them! My responses are designed to make you harder.

I am sympathetic to the argument that God is either rational or irrational while poisoning the well for both options. However, it is not as simple as you think.

God's properties need not be of the same order as are commonly understood by humans. 'Perfect' as it applies to ice cream is not the same term as 'perfect' as it applies to God. It is true that this 'divine meaning' cant be irrational without being nonsensical, but it can mean it is beyond the experience of us mortals. Since our language is meant to describe mortal experience, you can expect some tension as it grapples stuff way beyond its expertise. [Its like trying to teach Aristotle how to use MS-DOS, except this is hardcore l337 DOS and Aristotle has Alzeimers or something.]

Determinism is not a problem for some theists. So what if God made you so you would do X and Y, they are still your actions, just as you are his actions. As for the typhoons etc, you can treat those as tests to show your worth to God or as building moral fibre. Some theologians think the world is there to make you into an independant self, and you cant do that without challenges to that self. [Its like, "you wanna be a soul, and experience choice and harship, then go do that, but its gonna be tough. Dont worry though, cos in the end if you still want me ill be there to make it up to you"]

Also, by saying God is a meanie for subjugating these people for an unknown purpose you are again applying human terms to a divine entity. Listen to the responses to Plato, God is good, not just in the sense "what i say goes" or because he followed a preexisting standard, he is good because he is the origin of the idea of moral judgement all together. No God = no morality. [Your like, "Hey God, I cant do this just cos you said so, so unfair!" and he's like "STFU n00b! i invented this jazz to help you, if you dont like the way i did it, then you can go do that! you can do what the hell you want, and ill even love you afterwards but dont be surprised when things go bad"]

Although im sympathetic to determinism (even of the religious variety), if, however, determinism is a problem for you, you can easily stop it by limiting omniscience to possible knowledge, and thus only to the present and past (this is a reasonable step if we are to make omniscience a rational property, how can you have knowledge that doesnt exist yet?). Since the future is unknowable and thus even God doesnt know it, we are 'free' to choose randomly and act as independant rational agents. [Its like, yeah im timeless and i could control the future if i wanted, but id prefer to set things in motion and let all you exciting little random elements bounce around]

The idea of angels as mindless sycophants is a new one btw. Older ideas of angels have them as completely free agents. Sure, the ones who were allowed in God's presence sung his praises, but by choice cos he was so cool. What should he do, kill them off just for being noobs? Force them to do something else? [Its like, he's thinking "FFS, n00bs. I'm freakin awesome, cos I like invented awesomeness itself, duh, i know! But i dont wanna hurt their feelins and go like, 'you're not wanted!'... mendokuse!"]

The other angels however just did stuff, except they had super powers and lived in heaven. A third of them even rebelled you know. If God's lifestyle makes you uncomfortable, thats a shame cos he just aint your dad, he's you Father. Divine, not mundane. [Its like a secret agent dad or something. Are you gonna tell Bond off for being a womanising alcoholic when he's saving the world? Besides, he invented judging stuff to begin with]

Heaven and hell are not reward or punishment, it is simply whether the person accepts or rejects him. If they reject him, then they're on their own (whats he meant to do, steal them? he already forgives all their sins!). If however they want to go to heaven, they can. Its the person's choice, if its a hard choice, then thats what the character building bit is about. [He's like "OMG!!111 n00b! So cant believe you dont want me! Oh come on! Like, ultimate free lunch here, and you go 'nah, dont wanna'"]

God could not be swayed by prayer, no religion will say you'll get a rocketship if you want one. All that prayer can do is allow the person to open up to God's will and guidance. If you say he is negligent just cos hes big and doesnt give you rocketships or strike you down for making nieve posts on the internet, thats kinda silly. [He's like "yeah yeah, you think i care biatch? Really I love you guys too much to interfere with your development like that. Go be yourselves! I aint gonna bail you out, but i will welcome you back"]

Btw, you are not an apatheist. This post has shown how much you care about the subject.

The rest of your post I dont really care about (idle speculation and hashed attempts at the mind body problem, it deserves its own thread :) ), now excuse me while I wash this evangelism off. ;D

Cheers!

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Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #3 on: April 9, 2006, 08:39:10 PM »
Actaully where does it say that God is good? 
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Offline Col. Or'es'o (retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #4 on: April 9, 2006, 08:52:29 PM »
Found a couple of passages.

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3Jo 1:11 )

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (variations in Mar 19:17, 10:18, Luk 18:19)

Cheers from the atheist preacher. Damn you guys are sloppy. :D
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Offline Addinarr

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 01:10:27 AM »
Well, actually, apatheism would refer to the idea that I really don't care who or what entity may be ultimately in control over the universe, but really that does not mean I can't care about arguing about it. I believe the term is evangelical apatheist.

Although, apparently, not enough to care about making an organised perspective. But then that's my style. :p

Yeah, the rest of it is veering a bit off topic. *Shrugs*

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Offline Col. Or'es'o (retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 01:45:28 AM »
what, no counter essay?  >:(
You make me feel unloved  :'(

its your topic, you decide what the topic is :D

Apatheism isnt about what you believe, its how. If you are arguing the point (whatever point), then that means you aint one. :-\ Not a big issue though. According to the omniscient wiki Apathetic Agnosticism however has a lot more specific doctrine more in line with that you are looking for.
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Offline Pilotseer

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 02:49:21 PM »
You've evidently been doing some thinking. Just out of interest, have you studied any philosophy or theology? (It doesn't really make a difference, the high-level academics in both fields still can't agree) I'm a Mechanical Engineer personally, but I like a good discussion, so here goes...

I was browsing the other religion thread, and then decided to give my own thoughts. Unfortunately, it became so long, and in some cases tangential, that I decided it deserved it's own thread...
I've noticed that about the other religion threads. I've only been here a few months and already I can see the arguments going round in circles (as well as off at tangents - don't take the geometry metaphors too literally). Don't know how long I'll bother to keep responding.
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...Disclaimer: Do not read if you don't want your faith disrupted.
If it can't stand up to a little bit of honest scrutiny, it doesn't deserve to be my faith.

Then came a load of stuff about perfection. You point out that because perfection is subjective, you can't have a perfect God because there isn't one who will please everyone. However, if there is a God who created you in His image, then perfection is no longer subjective. He is perfect, because He is the basis of Your being. However it is perfectly possible that your perception of Him is so flawed that You do not recognise His perfection.

Then came some stuff about the contradiction of omnipotence, namely the alleged incompatibility between His omnipotence and our free will. I found that one interesting, because usually people argue that omniscience, not omnipotence, rules out free will. So, you argue that we are not free because we cannot do anything without God allowing it. However, if God decides to allow you to do whatever you like, then surely you are free after all. It's the same as if I say "you can write in any colour you want" instead of "you can write in any colour you want, as long as it's mauve".

Then came some stuff about the all-good/all-loving paradox. I answered that at some length in the  Intelligent Design thread, starting here. Basically, the problem is that without God, there can be no morality whatsoever, so if you ask why there is evil, you implicitly assume the existence of God, and therefore can't use the question to try to disprove His existence.


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What does this all mean? Well…basically it boils down to this: The God described in the Bible does not exist. [*Immediately gets pelted by hate-mail*] Well hey, sorry. But the God I have defined is, simply put, more powerful. And by definition, He would be the Perfect god.
Power does not equal perfection. Because a nuclear bomb is more powerful than a gas heater does not make it the perfect solution to all of my home heating needs.

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Not that you should be surprised anyway. The Bible was never written by God or any angels who have actually known him, after all.
The Bible was not written by angels, but it was written by people who knew God, such as Matthew and John, who lived in close contact with Jesus for about three years.

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Besides, what kind of god creates a special class of angels, whose only purpose is to fly around him 24/7 for all eternity singing His praises? Does he have that low a self-esteem? Does he really need an eternal metaphorical ego hand-job?
God does not need the service of men or angels, however the response of people who actually encounter Him is always one of two - worship or rejection. 2/3 of the angels worship, 1/3 followed Lucifer in rejection. And there's really no need to be abusive about the God who is my best friend.

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And what about all those people who don't believe in him? According to my church-going neighbor, they go straight to hell. Well, that's just shiny. You mean to tell me that only a few hundred million people get to go to heaven, while billions and billions of otherwise friendly, well-meaning, and virtuous individuals get the barbeque just because they believed in someone else? How petty!
I answered this in more length here, under the pseudonym Plastikente. Basically, you argue that virtue will get you into heaven, so it's unfair for God to disallow virtuous atheists. I say that no-one is virtuous enough for heaven, and so only the people who accept forgiveness are allowed in. God offers forgiveness to everyone, so He's not all that petty.

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In this way, we resemble our greatest creations: AI. Following this thought, then can we not say our minds and souls are really highly advanced software?
You present no evidence for the conclusion that our souls are software. You basically just say that computers can do calculations and have hardware, and humans can do calculations and have hardware. That's not enough to establish an equivalence.
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There is one thing the Machine can do that we cannot. The Machine's soul can be copied, transferred, and uploaded to other bodies.
But more important in this context is the one thing that we can do that machines cannot: original thought. You will need to show me an AI that is creative before I will accept that our soul may be analogous.

@Lt Col Or'es'o - I like your style, it's cool to see that you can explain what you're saying in terms simple enough for normal people to understand  :)

There are better arguments out there, go learn them!
I'd be interested in hearing the better arguments.

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Although im sympathetic to determinism (even of the religious variety), if, however, determinism is a problem for you, you can easily stop it by limiting omniscience to possible knowledge, and thus only to the present and past (this is a reasonable step if we are to make omniscience a rational property, how can you have knowledge that doesnt exist yet?). Since the future is unknowable and thus even God doesnt know it, we are 'free' to choose randomly and act as independant rational agents.
How do you know that the future is unknowable? If God is outside of time, then His knowledge is surely not temporal either. In fact, the test that God lays down for Biblical prophets is whether what they prophesy actually occurs. The reasoning being that if it does, it does so because they were inspired by the God who already knew the future.

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God could not be swayed by prayer, no religion will say you'll get a rocketship if you want one. All that prayer can do is allow the person to open up to God's will and guidance.
Actually, the Bible portrays God as being open to prayer, and even changing His course of action based on the prayers of humans. What it does not say is that You'll get anything you ask for just because you want it.

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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 03:19:48 PM »
Basically, the problem is that without God, there can be no morality whatsoever, so if you ask why there is evil, you implicitly assume the existence of God, and therefore can't use the question to try to disprove His existence.

Another problem is that that statement is just your belief, not fact, so the question is valid.

The Bible was not written by angels, but it was written by people who knew God, such as Matthew and John, who lived in close contact with Jesus for about three years.

Maybe they were inspired by god, but the problem here is that their writings doesn't always match up. If you read matthew 28:1-7 and John 20:1-18, you will see that the two stories of the same event (Mary Magdalena finding Jesus empty tomb) doesn't match.
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Offline Col. Or'es'o (retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2006, 05:46:22 PM »
I'd be interested in hearing the better arguments.
Sure, I can evangelise to you if you want, make a thread called "Attack my religion" or something. Or if you just want a good primer, The Non-Existence of God by Nicholas Everitt is not too bad.

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Although im sympathetic to determinism (even of the religious variety), if, however, determinism is a problem for you, you can easily stop it by limiting omniscience to possible knowledge, and thus only to the present and past (this is a reasonable step if we are to make omniscience a rational property, how can you have knowledge that doesnt exist yet?). Since the future is unknowable and thus even God doesnt know it, we are 'free' to choose randomly and act as independant rational agents.
How do you know that the future is unknowable? If God is outside of time, then His knowledge is surely not temporal either. In fact, the test that God lays down for Biblical prophets is whether what they prophesy actually occurs. The reasoning being that if it does, it does so because they were inspired by the God who already knew the future.[/quote]First off, it was a possibility not a statement of my beliefs, but indeed i do think the future is unknowable thanks to quantum indeterminacy.
Its easy to reconcile timelessness and temporality, God simply cannot use knowledge that doesnt exist at any particular time. Knowledge of future events does not exist, it is not knowable, so when God interacts with the timeline at Tn he doesnt (at that time) know what will happen in the timeline at Tn+2 until he has finished interacting.   
He can still make prophecy come true by guiding things personally or even by making good predictions based on his knowledge of the present (though it may indeed be innaccurate thanks to quantum indeterminacy).

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God could not be swayed by prayer, no religion will say you'll get a rocketship if you want one. All that prayer can do is allow the person to open up to God's will and guidance.
Actually, the Bible portrays God as being open to prayer, and even changing His course of action based on the prayers of humans. What it does not say is that You'll get anything you ask for just because you want it.[/quote]What stuff has given because of prayer? I thought it was just guidance?

Cheers!
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Offline Dark Exodus

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2006, 08:16:40 PM »
Quote
But more important in this context is the one thing that we can do that machines cannot: original thought. You will need to show me an AI that is creative before I will accept that our soul may be analogous.

Humans, like all creatures are simply very complex biological machines, nothing more. If we understood a bit more about our brains and had enough computing power we could make a creative AI, but the AI would have to be burdened with feelings (another complex biological component) and that is rather unnecessary.

Offline The Hive Custodian (Retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2006, 01:26:42 AM »
Basically, the problem is that without God, there can be no morality whatsoever, so if you ask why there is evil, you implicitly assume the existence of God, and therefore can't use the question to try to disprove His existence.

Err... isn't that exactly how you do disprove something? Circular reasoning would be if you assumed God doesn't exist and tried to use that to disprove God's existence.
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2006, 05:03:38 AM »
Usually, you try to assume the opposite of what you want to prove. In this case i would assume god existed and try to argue that its impossible. If i wanted to prove that fire is hot, i could assume that it is cold, put my hand in it, conclude that its definatly not cold, so it has to be hot. Also, that only works in cases were there are only two options. Like with god, he either exists or he doesn't. Yes, there is also the option of more than one god, but not when you talk about the christian god.
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Offline Pulse

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2006, 03:08:29 PM »
wow....I never knew you can have a debate about religion!!!

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2006, 03:13:00 PM »
Then you haven't been visiting the Discussion section enough, its atleast one or two goin on at any given time ;)
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Pulse

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2006, 03:20:52 PM »
Then you haven't been visiting the Discussion section enough, its atleast one or two goin on at any given time ;)

i have, I was just being sarcastic.  ;)

Offline Carrakon

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2006, 03:41:20 PM »
Like with god, he either exists or he doesn't. Yes, there is also the option of more than one god, but not when you talk about the christian god.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. In the 10 commandments it says that you shouldn't pray to any other god, which implies the existence of other gods. While we can say that this means not praying to imaginary gods, we have - at least to my knowledge - no written proof of this interpretation. And even if we have them, the 10 commandments come directly from god so as long as it doesn't say "well there's a mistake - check the 10 commandments errata and FAQ!" one could argue that it doesn't need to be true only because some christian man wrote into the book - who is he to contradict almighty god after all?
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2006, 05:01:32 PM »
Alot of things in the bible are scetchy, thats why i don't believe in it
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Pulse

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2006, 06:28:12 PM »
Alot of things in the bible are scetchy, thats why i don't believe in it

sketchy?? that's a word I use for describing my mushroom trip.....

But anyways, each to his own I say. Don't tell me what religion to have or not have, and I'll be just fine.

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2006, 05:40:56 AM »
But anyways, each to his own I say. Don't tell me what religion to have or not have, and I'll be just fine.

True, but its nothing wrong with pointing to texts in a religious mans own holy book and ask for an explanation
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

 


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