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Offline downundercadet07

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2005, 12:02:04 AM »
Disallowing the wearing of obvious religious iconry is placing a severe limitation upon the freedom of expression. If there was any question about what I meant.

What is going on the Netherlands? Some anarchists started the riots, not disenfranchised Muslims? Is that whats going down? Because the article you linked said the larrikins were yelling Arabic slogans. And are you saying that conditions are better in the Netherlands than in France? I wouldn't know, it is one of the few places that I have not been to yet.

About Iraq-- I just think there should be a stickied thread about it, so people can rant back and forth about it, and it wouldn't spill over to other threads. Because I am guilty of doing it too.

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2005, 12:13:32 AM »

If you ban all religious iconry-- you are banning certain religions that require everyone that practices them to wear obvious religious iconry. Like Hassidic Jews. That means that your citizens do not have religious freedom, and the French government is in effect saying-- If you are a Hassidic Jew, you are not welcome to practice your religion, nor live, in our country. I mean-- the anti-semitism was pretty bad when I was in France but apparently it has gotten a hell of alot worse.

There is a plus and negative side to the whole thing. Religion causes strife and if i recall it was only in schools and government jobs that there was a ban on religious artefacts. So if you are going to school as a muslim girl, no hijab. The reason being that girls began to go in the burka. Which has to be black making school uniforms pointless. Now if one person breaks uniform, then where do you draw the line? So they would either lose school uniforms (a bad thing in my opinion for reasons of uniformity, unity and above all sheer stupidity of kids at that age). They could'nt ban just the burka, as thats not equal too. So they banned the whole lot. I can name one thing of each religion... Crosses, Burka, Hijab, Skull Caps, Hassidic Gear, Oms, Mehendi, Sikh turbans and Bodhisatvah. They are all banned. And they are all vital to a religion. Any other stuff that comes under is also banned. Its not targetting one people its the whole lot. On the downside it does curtail freedom of expression but so far its just in public schools.


I always thought you emigrated to another country because you like thier culture, way of life and wish to assimilate and become a member of that society.  If someone wants to maintain their national identity, why not stay in their home country?

Then emigrate to a country with customs closer to your own.  Why go where you are not watned in the first place?

Well its quite simple really. A lot of the immigrants in the UK for example are ex colonial slaves. Gandhi was active in africa before he became active in India, and he won equality in South Africa. A lot of other colonies suddenly had a assertion by the indian populations for equality. They got it. (They were taken there as slaves and prison labourers) So when these countries got their freedom, they immediately deported these asians. Now they did'nt know any country apart from the one that ruled them, so they came here to England and they could'nt be turned back. If these people integrated, England would be a joke. They brought the corner store culture back. They revolutionised bland english food (England's national dish is the curry, not fish and chips). They forced the changing of laws that made English businesses uncompetitive due to their rigid working times (Asian stores are 7 days a week and open till around 9) they forced sunday openings. They provided labour and skilled employment. would you rather these guys go to a mosque for a quiet prayer than down the pub to get smashed and watch football? They have integratted pretty well. And the vast majority are hard working quiet people but you get a few idiots who are the equivalent of council estate pillocks and thats what we get tarred as. A lot of Indians provide a very high level of skill in jobs that not many english people are willing to do. For example medicine students are'nt that well taught and indian doctors are better trained for teaching them the procedures the british ones. Indian doctors work on aspects that most people don't want to specialise in. Pakistanis run many stores, businesses and the like. A lot of their ability to do well comes from their culture of family pressure. And do you really want a country of robots, all doing the same thing?

Also to be fair if you want people who are like your people to come into the country, no one is going to come as every country is different to a degree. Hell there is so much difference in your own people, that perhaps you should ban travel while you are at it.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline downundercadet07

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2005, 12:28:16 AM »
I disagree-- It is against the law to wag out of school in France correct? I assume they have some sort of Truancy laws. So-- if you are a child-- you have to go to school, or you are breaking the law. If you are a little Muslim girl who follows the faith strictly, you have to wear the Hijab. Therefore you must either break the law by going to school wearing the Hijab, or break the law by not going to school. The little Catholic boy could were a crucifx though, and that would be fine, if I am understanding this correctly. Therefore--- Muslims are suffering from religious discrimination in France. They might not be the only ones, but they are. It is not legal for them to practice their religion. Unacceptable, in my opinion. Here in Australia, there was a similar problem, when some Muslim girl wouldn't wear a skirt during Ramadan, so she wore the uniform pants that boys wear instead of her uniform skirt. She got suspended, and they told here she could either wear this short little skirt, or stay at home. I don't see how this kind of stuff is legal personally.

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2005, 12:47:59 AM »
Comparing it truancy is a bit pointless really. They are two different things. Truancy laws are there for two reasons. One education and two responsibility for the child.

The term is no religious symbols at school, and that includes the crucifix. The simple procedure for the girl in australia (she was making an issue to be fair) was to wear a long skirt. there is no rule on the maximum length of school uniform, just the minimum.

The term is limit. If the Hijab is allowed then all the minor stuff is allowed. But then where do you draw the line? Basically its breaking down a barrier. I agree its an identity but people change.

If the banning of the Hijab is racist, then every country with crap or non existent vegetarian food should be counted as racist as well simply because one is an icon of a religion the other is stopping food to strict Hindus and Buddhists. So many of these little arguments are there that you may as well make sure there is no precedent so that you don't get crazy cases. I don't mind it personally as a equaliser. I mind it because it impingines on freedom of expression. Simple solution allow the item in question if it conforms to uniform colours. The complaints would stop.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline downundercadet07

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2005, 01:08:23 AM »
Earlier, someone said that only overt, obvious religious icons were banned, and someone could wear an inconspicous religious symbol, like a cross or a star of david on a necklace or whatever. Therefore, since some religions do not require the wearing of overt religious items, and some do, the government is discriminating against the religions that have a certain 'uniform' so to speak.

I'm not comparing it to truancy-- I'm saying that the girl in question has one of three choices--
1. Be a truant, and stay true to her religion, breaking the law
2. Go to school wearing religious garb, staying true to her religion, and breaking the law
3. Go to school not wearing religious garb, betraying her religion, and obeying the law.

I'm a little confused on your stance here-- are you saying a country that bans all religious items is no worse than a country whose citizens relieve themselves inside the nation's borders? Huh?

Offline Captain Leonidas

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2005, 01:19:00 AM »
What is going on the Netherlands? Some anarchists started the riots, not disenfranchised Muslims? Is that whats going down? Because the article you linked said the larrikins were yelling Arabic slogans. And are you saying that conditions are better in the Netherlands than in France? I wouldn't know, it is one of the few places that I have not been to yet.

My bad. Yes the arsonist (rioteer if you wish to say so) were shouting Arabic, or so what the news said. Muslims are pretty disfrnachised in Netherlands too but not to the level of France, since they were not compelled to riot in the end.

I said Anarchist were implied because there were burnt cars with the logo A for Anarchy sprayed on them.

Like I said, there were attempted imitations, but accordingly to their levels of integration, the reaction vary wildly. From French riots to only 2 burnt cars in Antwerp I believe.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2005, 01:48:59 AM »
No, i compared it to the non provision of vegetarian food. Hindus have a high proportion of vegetarians within their population. Buddhists are nearly 100% veggie, so they both have difficult food requirements anywhere in the EU. Put it this way, the only thing they can eat from any menu is potato chips and a few of the salads.  Is that racist? Nope, as i said where do you draw the limit? Would you tolerate the wearing of the burka in schools? And the withdrawal of girls from PE and games? If you preach equality then everyone needs it, so you lose the uniform and you start getting ghettoised by nature due to similarities and differences. And don't say you don't do that. We are talking about normal people if they are different we won't talk to them as we as a people are kind of scared of different stuff. Can the government afford to provide halal and kosher food seperately to students who require this? What about vegan meals? Once you start down this road you are going to go the whole way which may be more trouble than it seems.

And i did provide the alternative, they can wear these things as long as they maintian the school colours.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline Charon

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2005, 04:55:50 AM »
What is going on the Netherlands? Some anarchists started the riots, not disenfranchised Muslims? Is that whats going down? Because the article you linked said the larrikins were yelling Arabic slogans. And are you saying that conditions are better in the Netherlands than in France? I wouldn't know, it is one of the few places that I have not been to yet.

My bad. Yes the arsonist (rioteer if you wish to say so) were shouting Arabic, or so what the news said. Muslims are pretty disfranchised in Netherlands too but not to the level of France, since they were not compelled to riot in the end.

I said Anarchist were implied because there were burnt cars with the logo A for Anarchy sprayed on them.

Like I said, there were attempted imitations, but accordingly to their levels of integration, the reaction vary wildly. From French riots to only 2 burnt cars in Antwerp I believe.

Ouch can of worms...

The Netherlands was the most tolerant integrated country in the world until the murder of Pim Fortuyn in 2002.
he might have been extreme-right, but political killings are just not on in the Netherlands.
That event shock the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn
Then came the  brutal execution of Theo van Gogh by a Muslim extremist in 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29
This showed a big part of the autochtonous Dutch population that their culture of tolerance and liberalism was not appreciated by others who have never been persecuted in the Netherlands for any of their culture or believes.

The most scary thing was that while the Dutch autochtonous population isn't growing fast, while that of others is.
Dutch people are scared that they will lose their tolerant society, culture and identity and rightfully so.

Any disenfranchised Muslims in the Netherlands have nothing but their own culture to blame for their disenfranchisement, since they are not willing to change, whereas the Dutch state and society have supported their cultural identity through the centuries.
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Offline downundercadet07

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2005, 12:57:40 AM »
If France is like Australia, you are allowed to pack a lunch. And you are not allowed to skip school. Therefore, it would not be religious discrimination to not serve Kosher food, and it would be to require completely non-secular uniforms. Because you are legally required to not be true to your religion.

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2005, 10:59:33 AM »
Don't you mean it would require secular uniforms (secular means non religious) And therefore, like France the Hijab and Burka would be banned along with the Sikh Turban and Jewish skull cap unless they were part of the school uniform anyways (Like Manchester Islamic School for Girls has the Hijab as its uniform although the Burka is banned)

Incidentally its not just muslims rioting, its all the people of the marginalised areas as such. The french government is just blaming one people, but eyewitnesses state there are white french demonstrators as well.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline miclantecuthli

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2005, 11:46:20 AM »
There's a new topic where you can discuss the so-called religious discrimination in France. You can still discuss the riots, possible solutions or origins here off course.

I absolutely disagree with those who say that banning the Hijab (or burqa) is discriminating.
1) The hijab isn't a obligation for muslims!
2) Compulsary education does not mean that you have to go to school.
3) All religious symbols are forbidden

Incidentally its not just muslims rioting, its all the people of the marginalised areas as such. The french government is just blaming one people, but eyewitnesses state there are white french demonstrators as well.

And where did you read/heard the French governement blaming the immigrants or muslims? The debate and media attention indeed focusses alot on the muslim population, but can you proof that the French governement is blaming the muslims? Almost everyone knows that there are atheists and christians too, causing problems in the banlieus of France.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 06:09:00 PM by miclantecuthli »
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2005, 11:05:06 AM »
I think my answer got sent to the other thread in the cut.

Independant on thursday carried the story of certain government officials (name escapes me) blaming muslim community and the practice of polygamy (No idea why?)


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2005, 01:03:26 PM »
I find it very curious that the American media has translated "2nd generation North African immigrants" to "Muslim extremist youths."  My countrypeople never hesistate to criticize countries and cultures that have thrived for hundreds and even thousands of years (ergo, France and the Middle East in general) from the armchair of their scant two-centuries old country.  I wonder why they hesitated to call America a morally bankrupt, "failed state" during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, or during the bombings of abortion clinics.  No, America is not a failed state, but it would qualify as one using the reactionary perceptions of those that are decrying France as some sort of ruin.
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Offline downundercadet07

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2005, 12:17:30 AM »
Perhaps because Hurricane Katrina didn't reveal to the rest of the world any evidence of discrimination on the same scale as in France? For example-- Black Americans don't have an unemployment rate 30% higher than White Americans, but Muslim in France do when compared to non Muslims. Nor did the hurricane reveal a government who makes it a policy or repressing religious expression in public forums. The French Riots did. Are you suggesting that just because a country is not old it cannot criticize other nations for their discrimination of immigrants? That is not logical at all. I find it interesting that when something that cannot be in any way construed as Anti-American comes up, something that really has no revelance to America whatsoever, you use it as a means to bash the US. If you are going after the media, why don't you do a search on Hurricane Ivan, that hit and completely devestated many white communities last year, some people (my entire town as a matter of fact, and we have 250000 people) where without electrical power for nearly two and a half months, and it was a hell of alot longer before FEMA got to us than it was for them to get to New Orleans. However, since we were white, it wasn't a story.

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Riots in Paris
« Reply #94 on: November 21, 2005, 06:56:30 AM »
Erm... power is one thing, but food and drinking water and hell evacuation is another. Man can live without electricity hell he has lived without it for nearly 5000 years in civilised society before we got the stuff. He can live for a while without food, but lack of drinking water will kill him in a day or two.

If you look at the percentages of poor americans then why are black americans in the vast majority? 30% of black americans are below the poverty line (only 5% of white america is...) And the employment rate of white americans is 4% and black americans is 10% (roughly)

Unemployment is'nt the problem its the lack of money, its tyhe fact that black americans are still treated as psuedo slaves given crappy jobs. Instead of being slaves to people they are slaves to the american dollar. They need the stuff but they are'nt given enough so they continue to work in their crappy jobs. But this is'nt the discussion its france that is the discussion.

Unemployment rates amon white french (9 to 10% depending on source) among muslim french (13-15%)(BBC and Independant). The problem is when you look at University Graduate Unemployment rates. 5% overall but nearly 25% in African French (not muslim). Its therefore not 30% unemployment rate... Its a 15% please quote facts from unbiased sources.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

 


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