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Offline bebe

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1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« on: July 27, 2009, 09:05:34 AM »
This is the list I use for competitive play at 1500 points. I do have a more casual list with fifteen WG that I prefer to play but if I'm going against stiffer competition and want to use a Wraith list, I fall back on this. I will freely confess that I've played less games with this list than with my casual list but it only heightens my appreciation of the differences between the lists and demonstrates the increased flexibility of this build. I was not going to post the list but since I've been busy commenting on other threads referring back to it I might as well present it and hear all the criticism as once!   

1500 Pts - Eldar Roster - Craftworld Gro-Galdr
 
Farseer Chaeli, (Eldrad Ulthran 'counts as') @ 210 Pts
w/
10 Wraithguard @ 396 Pts
   1 Spiritseer; Witchblade; Conceal
 
5 Dire Avengers @ 60 Pts
Falcon @ 180 Pts
   Holo-Field; Spirit Stone; Missile Launcher; TL Shuriken Catapult; Pulse Laser
   
Yriel, Prince @ 155 Pts
w/
10 G Storm Squad, Flamers(x2) @ 237 Pts
   1 Warlock; Witchblade; Destructor
Wave Serpent; Spirit Stone; Shuriken Catapults; TL Shuriken Cannons
 
1 Wraithlord; Flamer (x2); Wraithsword); Scatter Laser @ 120 Pts
1 Wraithlord; Flamer (x2); Wraithsword; Bright Lance @ 140 Pts
 
Total: 1498
Kill points: 9
Models: 33
 
Notes:

This list is designed to have a very strong Wraithwall supported by two mechanized troop choices that can be used as an anvil on the flanks and hopefully grab an objective late game. It is not an easy task building a competitive Iyanden list that incorporates Wraithguard. A mounted squad of Wraithguard are always a possibility but they are not scoring and really not that 'killy'. Taking Wraithguard as a troop choice seems to make more sense.
 
The Storm Guardians with Yriel forced me to do without the Avatar which can be a very mean addition to Wraithwall with Eldrad in tow. The Eldrad/Avatar combo is well known. I have opted instead to use a ghetto Seer council of Yriel and Storm Guardians. This allows me some flexibility protecting Yriel and provides him with a transport if needed. Yriel at any time may be detached from the Storm Guardian squad and the serpent can be borrowed by the WG. I could have used Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent but in 5ed the ability to ignore cover saves is quite useful. A list without flamers feels a bit naked. It is not an easy squad to use. You cannot assault after disembarking so you have to plan carefully when setting up your attacks. Guardians do not have a good save. You need to rely on a turbo-boost save and mobility and terrain to keep these guys alive until games end. I also lack the points for a Singing Spear in the squad so I’m relying on getting close with my WB if I have to take a tank down.
 
The Davu Falcon, although used primarily for objective grabs can be used to snipe with the pulse lasers and EML when necessary and will be hidden behind the WS. It will be a small part of the mech wing to be sure but can soften up a target and is another hard target for the opponent to consider. My DA will never leave the transport unless it is destroyed. DAVU are essential ti this list. I need a second scoring squad that are near impossible to take down. Holofield Falcons simply survive especially when arriving turn three from reserves.
 
The Wraithwall itself will form a rock hard center with Eldrad using whatever psychic powers appropriate to the occasion. He can guide the WLs and fortune the squad of WG he is attached to, he can use Eldrich Storm when needed and can take out PFs and characters with Mind War or he can fortune the Wave Serpent. Again, EML/BL WLs would seem useful in this list but points simply prohibit their use. So I’m relying on getting those WLs into cc to take down tanks. In fact WLs are better tank hunters when attacking them in cc then when shooting at them but the BL is nice insurance and Wraithcannons certainly help.
 
The list is tight. I would have liked a little extra AT but will rely on my characters, MCs and Warlock to hopefully take out a tank when needed. In fact any one of my squads has the capacity to do so. It is hard with Iyanden to get the right blend of AT and horde control. My SG often as not will be gone before the game ends along with Yriel. They will be targeted after my opponent assesses the threats on the table - my WG and DAVU falcon are more difficult to deal with so they become the easiest squad to take down. But that is okay. That's their job. My WG are quite difficult to destroy and I’m not offering up my DAVU falcon for an easy kill.

I started testing the list against SM ( a rather conclusive victory), Orks (a close loss to a bike heavy list) and Tau (a close victory against an opponent I’m familiar with). I have now played half a dozen games with variants of this list and find that it has the capacity to compete albeit with the traditional shortcomings of a heavy Wraith list. Yriel often as not weill be gone before the end game but he does his job before going down and is well worth the investment.

Let summarize what this list is about ... it exemplifies a style that showcases some mobility and great survivability over the ability to annihilate your opponent. You most definitely need to focus on objectives and steal the game away from your opponent late in the battle. It is a 5ed list and you need all three troop choices to be competitive.

Don't believe that the WG will not get a chance to take down tanks. Land Raiders, Chimeras, Valkyries and Rhinos are rushing forward into range. Your wall is slow but your opponents need to deal with it with the tools they have and want to get close to use their terminators, melta guns and powerfists. Play smart.  Load them on a wave serpent if you have to and go after a flank and an objective.

Yriel is a funny character as he is great in a squad but has his uses running solo as well. You need to know what you can sacrifice to guarantee the late win. Yriel is undercosted. With the new defenders react rule the Yriel bomb is quite potent and his ability to strike first with five attacks against most anything makes him a cc monster. There are good reasons that we see Eldrad/Yriel in competition lists. These are without question the two best ICs in the codex ading a great deal of flexibility and power to any list.

I need two squads left scoring at the game's end. You can contest with a tank or even your WLs. Have a plan and follow it. I am not bothered by losing one scoring troop or Yriel if they do their job first. I'm not implying that you should be reckless and give up easy kill points but if you have to make a sacrifice do it. My plan is to survive , not to massacre my opponent. If I end up clearing his side it is a nice result but clearly the army is designed to take control of key objectives.

Now for the weakness the list has ... anniliation. It simply is not to win that battle. It can handle all the objective scenarios, it fares well with KPs but it will not decimate many opponents. Then again your opponent will hard pressed to wipe you out as well.

The fluff for this force may be found here

http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=183170.0
 
Any comments are appreciated... 

Iyanden – Surviving after the fall. Lamenting the past

The Song of Gro-Galdr

The dome above the spirtseer
Is crackling at the seams.
Upon the runes of death
The ghostlight brightly gleams.
When every IllMureead is squashed
With their nightmares and their fears,
The only sound in space to hear
Is silence as it drowns the screams.

Between the infinite circuit of fate,
The seeds of wrath are sown,
And watered by the deeds of those
Who know and who are known;
Wraithbone is a deadly friend
When one casts the runes.
The fate of all Iyanden rests
In in the hands of the  SpiritSeer.

Resurrection will be my epitaph.
As I sail a cracked and ghostly path
If we make it through the Warp
We laugh.
I fear tomorrow we will weep,
Yes tomorrow we will weep.


EDITED to clarify list and correct spelling errors - if I'm going to be rated I'm doing it up right!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:38:51 AM by bebe »
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 09:37:15 AM »
Looks good.

I'd seriously consider giving the stormies some special weapons....that's one of the main reasons that we take them....

Lazarus.
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Offline Starrakatt

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 09:38:47 AM »
Like you said, a tight list but it is hard to come up with a competitive Wraith army at 1500 pts, I have nothing much to add to the composition since it is evident that you made all efforts to squeeze in as many stuff as you could. ;)

However, Eldrad may not be as necessary in there as there is no other unit to Fortune (Avatar) but he make a great 'champion' to walk along with the Wraithguard, and his ability to snipe pesky powerfists or boosted characters in assault units, or at the very least try to trim down some powerful units at range make him very versatile. So in the end it a question of personal choice I guess, same with Yriel or the Avatar.

About Yriel, I wouldn't dismiss the opportunity to run him along with the Wraithguard for a good CC scrap - Fortune + Wraithguard + Eldrad + Yriel make up for a unit much more resilient than a Council against shooting, albeit much weaker against many powerfists units and only a wee bit softer against Rending units, given only 6s will wound, and of these you will try to contact as many Rending models with Eldrad and Yriel to benefit from their ++ saves.

Another tactic I used with great success against mech armies is spreading the Wraithwall into a wide formation and sweep the board with the Farseer (Eldrad), Yriel, and Spiritseer spread out in the unit so the Wraithguard can multiple Assault different vehicle/units with the Witchblade wielder trashing AV while the WG take on WS models. Especially useful if you manage to hit one or two CC weak squads with a minimal number of the WG and hope NOT to kill too many (or none) in your Turn while you destroy one or two vehicle - This way you stay in CC while in the opponent's Turn and your IC have to Pile In in CC with the infantry as they aren't locked against no WS vehicles, so you can possibly easily win CC and have a free consolidate move.

Other than that, you know which units you need to be careful against, I won't extend on this either.

Wish you luck in your battle, and if at all possible try out that one in some tournament and give us some feedback. :)

   Starky

P.S. The Stormies' special weapons aren't listed, I assume they are Flamers... (Ninjaed by Lazarus)

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Offline moc065

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 10:34:48 AM »

1500 Pts - Eldar Roster - Craftworld Gro-Galdr
 
Eldrad Ulthran @ 210 Pts
w/
10 Wraithguard @ 396 Pts
   1 Spiritseer; Witchblade; Conceal

Solid group although it is a little out of sorts for an Iyanden force to include Eldrad... I do like it though and it could be magic if used well.
 
5 Dire Avengers @ 60 Pts
Falcon @ 180 Pts
   Holo-Field; Spirit Stone; Missile Launcher; TL Shuriken Catapult; Pulse Laser

I am not a huge fan of Min/max units especially when they are so small; but this one does have its place for scoring factor, resilience, etc...
   
Yriel, Prince @ 155 Pts
w/
10 G Storm Squad @ 237 Pts
   1 Warlock; Witchblade; Destructor
Wave Serpent; Spirit Stone; TL Shuriken Catapult; TL Shuriken Cannons

I would prefer to see better weapons on the Serpent, and some special weapons within the Strom squad... you might also consider something like this. {EDIT - now that I do the math, I see that you included the cost for Spec Weapons.. so the choice of Destructor vs Embolden and Spear is completely user optional.}
(125) 10 Stormies, 2 w/flamers... + warlock with embolden and spear...
(110) Serpent with Stones and tl-shuricans....
    As it keeps the flamers for horde use, while adding a AT component... The trick in most instances is to leave them in the Serpent after moving... then on the next turn, pop them out - advance - shoot - and assault.... they can be effective vs many smaller MEQ units, and even equal to average sized horde or GEQ units.

 
1 Wraithlord; Flamer (x2); Wraithsword); Scatter Laser @ 120 Pts
1 Wraithlord; Flamer (x2); Wraithsword; Bright Lance @ 140 Pts

These can be solid; but they can also be predictable as they need to stay close to the Farseer or Warlock to be most effective... this can cut your options slightly, so give it a little thougth prior to game play and you should do well.
 
Total: 1498
Kill points: 9
Models: 33

Solid 1500pts list, and I would actually like to see Starky, Gutstikk, Goofycommy, etc actually do a rating on it, as it has serious potential for an Iyanden/Ulthwe style list...

Thanks for sharing, and many enemy would have huge problems to deal with this sort of resilience.

Cheers

 
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Offline Dunedain

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 01:07:38 PM »
get flamers for the storm squad. You could make the points by dropping the wraithlord's scatter laser to a shuriken cannon.
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Offline bebe

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 07:32:26 PM »
As has been mentioned there are flamers in the Storm squad. I jsut forgot to write it out.

I play a few tricks with the Storm squad. I generally start Yriel with them but I will on occasion drop them off by an objective with the Wraithlords nearby and have my WG + Yriel + Eldrad mount up. I also have used Yriel in the wall as mentioned by Starky rather then put him in the serpent. I'm still playing around with this list.

Now Eldrad is near essential in the list. i need to double fortune often ( the WG squad and the Serpent both benefit ). Yriel likes being fortuned if in range, etc. Divination is very useful at times as well but not enough to take Eldrad. The third power cements the deal though. Both Mind War and Eldrich Storm are so useful in a list like this. So yes, i could use a standard Seer but why when I can use Farseer Chaeli, (Eldrad ‘counts as’). My fluff supports a very strong Farseer for the list anyway. 

I've only used it six times and I really would rather go with the mounted WG and a regular seer for all my veteran's night games as this is the list I'm most familiar with. That said I've played the Wall long enough to adapt quickly to new nuances ( my Avatar and sig is homage to the Wall). But I want to thoroughly test out the parameters of this list to see if it merits bringing to a 'cheese fest'. We have those nights where everyone brings their meanest, nastiest lists to prepare some of our group for GTs. 

As for batreps - I've mentioned this before - I'm terrible with them. I always get the sequence of events wrong and I never take notes. I'll try to write something up if I get a chance.

Last, feel free to rate this ... I've no problem with that as ultimately it can only benefit the readers. I would warn players though, that this list is not for someone just starting out with WG. I find myself at the wrong end end of the stick playing lists like these often enough and I'm experienced with it.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 08:04:42 PM by bebe »
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 09:23:03 PM »
reserved for rating. It's got some interesting choices for so small a point level. For now I'll just say that the formatting is very nice, and that's mostly the reason I'll be doing a review  ;). I'm glad to see the explanations for things though, since running Yriel essentially by himself like that is not something I see done too often [though that's exactly the way I used to field him, lol].

I think the list has decent potential if used well, and the AT shouldn't be too big a deal. You could always swap a flamer in the ST guard for a melta if you needed to; that would give you two solid AT shots from that team [three if you could scrounge points for a wychblade].

Anyhow, I'll pm you once I've replaced this text with your review.

--edit: rating below:
background - 1.0
composition - .75
utility - 1.0
flexibility - .75
ingenuity - 1.0
Quote
Load them on a wave serpent if you have to and go after a flank and an objective.

Nice addition, don't think I've seen this tactic mentioned before. Probably was discussed in Iyanden POC thread, but if so, I missed it.

Total score - 4.5

You've certainly covered the bases here. I didn't do a full write-up because, for the most part, it's self explanatory. Composition you missed points for total lack of elite and fast attack units, flexibility because your whole army is largely dependent on Eldrad and, to an extent, Yriel, and because you really have only a single battlegroup you are more limited in your options for engaging the enemy. But you have to make hard decisions, and I think yours were well-made, considering you've scored in the top tier for my rating system. Well done, and a nice read too.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 03:51:33 PM by Gutstikk »

Offline bebe

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #7 on: August 2, 2009, 10:57:23 AM »
Okay this is for Starky ... I tweaked the list for a local tournament and dropped the characters so thee would be no whining from fluff nazis and so that my comp scores ( yes, they did that here ) would be better. I actually prefered the new list over the old one so it worked out very well.

1500 Pts - Eldar Roster - Craftworld Gro-Galdr

Farseer Chaeli, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing  125
w/
10 Wraithguard @ 399 Pts
1 Spiritseer, Singing Spear, Conceal
Wraithlord, BL, Wraithsword, 2x flamers 140
Wraithlord, BL, EML, 2x flamers 155

Autarch, Fusion Gun, Ppower Weapon, Mandiblasters @ 95
w/
11 Storm Guardians, 2x Flamers @ 245
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lances, Shuriken Catapults, Spirit Stones

5 Dire Avengers @ 205
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lances, Shuriken Catapults, Spirit Stones

Vyper, Shuriken Cannon, EML @ 75
Vyper, Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser @ 70

Total: 1499
Kill Points: 11
Models: 35

Now I played three games. One was against Orks, one was against SM and I drew one Necron list. I went 2-0-1. It was highly amusing to me that the list I ended up drawing against was the Necron list which is really not a tournament level list.

I started everything but my wraithwall in reserve all three games as a lot of scenarios favored shooty lists and I was not about to expose my transports and vypers first turn. The SM was a drop pod/Vulcan list that failerd miserably against most of my list. They could not dent my wraithwall and my mech wing and Storm Guardians ( yes - you heard that correctly) absolutely shredded them piecemeal. On tuern three I was mounted and he was without transports. My biggest surprise were the Vypers that managed to survive all game and the fact that my Autarch was not swept away with my Storm Guardians. Coming in from reserves and being able to hide those Vypers and then soften up a target for the Storm Guardians was key.

The Ork list was trukks and one squad of the obligatory Nob Bikers and some deffkoptas. Again the key here was taking on the list piecemeal. Sustained fire with all I had against the Nob Biker squad killed off as few before they hit my wall and I think my opponent was surprised how my Writhguard and Wraithlords were able to handle the remnants. This lseft me with the needed firepower to take out ther trukks and flame and shoot the small boyz mobs at will and the deffkoptas look a lot more threatening than they actually are. I was very happy that I filled my lists with BLs and EMLs in this game. With most of the weapons shooting at BS4 they did alot of damage. I did not miss guide or doom on the Seer.

Ah, Necrons. I was pretty sure I had enough to negate WBB roles and handle them but it turned into an interesting battle and only contesting objectives helped me in the end. He had a Deceiver which is just scary, warriors and lots of Tomb Spiders making scarabs. I was surprised how hard was targeted his castle and taking down those MCs and only his lack of mobility stopped him from winning the game. I could not phase the bugger out and I was not eager to assault those Spiders. Now the conventional winning Necron list should have Destroyers and Warriors no? WTF. I just was not prepared for that list. I would rather have faced Lash Princes or Abaddon.

All in all a good tournament if ...
1) I honestly do not know how some people design their scenarios. Why not stick to the BBG and roll guys instead of making up missions that favor certain builds?
2) Scoring for comp is silly. I played a themed list and still got penalizwed by the SM player who frankly was a bad loser
3) Do people know we are playing 5ed now? There were way too many lists that worked in 4ed but do not work in 5ed.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2009, 05:58:18 PM by bebe »
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Offline Starrakatt

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #8 on: August 2, 2009, 04:56:36 PM »
Congrats for the good results beb, happy to see that Wraith lists (well, yours at least) can somewhat manage their own in tourneys.

I haven't face a Drop Pod list yet, but on paper a wraith list is tough enough to withdstand their arrival and hit back. Hard. And you also seems to have rolled well enough in that one.

Ork Bikers I faced once and defated in CC with a Fortuned WG/Farseer/Yriel/Swordlord/Harlies combo counterattack - admiteddly, it was a full squad and I only managed a single kill and some odd wounds before they hit me, shooting sucked, but it again prove it can be done, but gods that they are hard unit, good for you to manageing it. :)

AS for the Necron MC list, I also faced on once against Gutstikk abd only won through Phase Out because I got some good rolls in the end and apitalized from a mistake, for I was effectively beaten - Just saying that some 'out of teh box' builds can be quite surprisingly nasty.

Quote
All in all a good tournament if ...
1) I honestly do not knowe how some people design their scenarios. Why not stick to the BBG and roll guys instead of making up missions that favor certain builds?
2) Scoring for comp is silly. I played a themed list and still got penalizwed by the SM player who frankly was a bad loser
3) Do people know we are playing 5ed now? Thwere were way too many lists that worked in 4ed but do not work in 5ed.
1) Originality I guess, some will favore some builds, some will be something else...
2) Ditto, it would seems that Fortuned Wraithguard, two WL and Yriel are overpowered and cheesey... while the guy with double lash/Plague Marines/Land Raider got a better score. ::)
3) I guess some DO know... Those who actually WIN...

Thank you for somewhat sharing your tourney results with us, and out of curiosity how did you score?

   Starky

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Offline bebe

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #9 on: August 2, 2009, 05:55:22 PM »
Quote
Thank you for somewhat sharing your tourney results with us, and out of curiosity how did you score?

I told you I wrote the very worst tournament reports. Don't know why it matters how I scored but I ended up third with the second best record ... not too terrible I guess but I'm not keen on tournament play by and large so it matters less then actually enjoying the games. I went out because someone here ( wink ) wanted some kind of tournament report. By and large I will only play with a group of veterans four five times a month.

It was a six strong bike mob but I really poured everything I had into them first and took out three bikes and I have no idea why after all the incoming fire he took first he figured he enough left to deal with my wall. I guess he figured he would take down the two WLs fast. I also had my Autarch in the fray. Admittedly I rolled well and also fortune helps. 

Yep, Necron MC is really tough. This fellow made no apparant mistakes either but was the best game of the day anyway. Good sport and knowledgeable and he went one win with two draws.

A few scenarios were bad. They seemed designed to penalize solid mech builds taking away their biggest strengths. Not that I should complain playing a Wraithwall. Maybe because in 5ed they are so much better they felt they should even things up but that is just my opinion.


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Offline Starrakatt

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Re: 1500 Craftworld Gro-Galdr for review
« Reply #10 on: August 2, 2009, 07:41:12 PM »
Quote
Thank you for somewhat sharing your tourney results with us, and out of curiosity how did you score?

I told you I wrote the very worst tournament reports. Don't know why it matters how I scored but I ended up third with the second best record ... not too terrible I guess but I'm not keen on tournament play by and large so it matters less then actually enjoying the games. I went out because someone here ( wink ) wanted some kind of tournament report. By and large I will only play with a group of veterans four five times a month.
I wonder who's that barstard is, going against your free will like that...  >:(

Nonetheless, third is quite good, especially if you don't play very often.

Quote
It was a six strong bike mob but I really poured everything I had into them first and took out three bikes and I have no idea why after all the incoming fire he took first he figured he enough left to deal with my wall. I guess he figured he would take down the two WLs fast.
Too much success may lead to delusion I guess, I was hit by that once or twice myself...

Quote
A few scenarios were bad. They seemed designed to penalize solid mech builds taking away their biggest strengths. Not that I should complain playing a Wraithwall. Maybe because in 5ed they are so much better they felt they should even things up but that is just my opinion.
Possibly, but with one or two like that it may reduce mechanised armies to a more manageable level for all comers list, footsloggers and hybrid players, dunno, depends of the local tourney players I would guess.

But I'm with you on tournaments, I go there to have some fun, but all the better if I win. :)

   Starky

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