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Offline Lazarus

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2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« on: February 2, 2008, 07:51:16 AM »
Army size
2,000 points

Army type
Competitive Hybrid eldar

Opposition:
Take all comers tourney list


The list
(210) Eldrad

(155) Avatar

(76) 3 guardian jetbikes w/ shuriken cannon upgrade

(76) 3 guardian jetbikes w/ shuriken cannon upgrade

(144) 6 pathfinders

(153) 10 guardian defenders w/ bright lance + warlock w/ conceal, ss & pistol

(113) 5 fire dragons + exarch w/ dragon's breath & crack shot

(113) 5 fire dragons + exarch w/ dragon's breath & crack shot

(260) 7 harlies+troupe master w/ power weapon, shadow seer and deathjester. 5 kisses total in the unit.

(70) Vyper w/ scatter laser & shuriken cannon

(220) Falcon w/ pulse laser, scatter laser, shuriken cannon, holo field, spirit stones, vectored engines & star engines

(220) Falcon w/ pulse laser, scatter laser, shuriken cannon, holo field, spirit stones, vectored engines & star engines

(190) Fire prism w/ prism cannon, shuriken cannon, holo field, spirit stones & vectored engines.


2 HQ
4 TROOP
3 ELITE
1 FAST
3 HEAVY

51 models
12 scoring units



The hybrid list is primarily a VP denial list that is very strong at grabbing objectives.

VP denial in this list is found with the 3 upgraded skimmers, a fortuned avatar & Eldrad, peek a boo shooting bikes, pathfinders hopefully in hard cover, harlies being untargetable (and if in danger will become fortuned) Guardians w/ conceal that also may be fortuned.

How this army works.

Eldrad
I usually try to screw my opponent up before the game begins with divination. I'll often set up a grav tank on a far flank in the open to attract some heavy AT units - I'll then later refuse that flank stranding my opponent. OR, I can often throw a falcon out front to reduce my enemy's capacity to deploy in certain missions only to whisk it back to safety. Eldrad's other job is to fortune the Avatar making him near unkillable and keeping the foot element of my army fearless. Depending on the mission & opponent Eldrad will either sit with the harlies or guardians and fortune them as well. I'll usually opt for the guardians to take advanatage of conceal and the fact that the harlies cannot be normally targeted. If I think my opponent can get to the harlies w/ fast movers / deep strikers then I might opt instead to fortune them. Eldrad's third power is usually guide on the first turn or two and then probably doom for the remainder unless opportunities present themselves. (Eldritch storm for spinning tanks etc.)

Avatar
Do I really need to say anything? A scoring unit that keeps my guys from running away? Eldrad and the Avatar are what make the other half of the Hybrid list. A fearless resilient base coupled with hard core skimmers. The opponent can no longer ignore this guy. It's also nice to have a BS 5 melta gun (lol)

Guardian jetbikes
These are my fast movers and objective grabbers. I can also use them to block access points on vehiles and annoy people with their shooting & assault move. They play well with the VP denial theme.

Pathfinders
With Godzilla lists being popular I find these guys pretty usefull. Doom makes them do really well vs. their targets and If I run up against a MC list I'll likely fortune them to make sure they last. Also, as infiltrators they can be usefull in certain missions to either keep the enemy infiltrators away of to harrass a flank. They are also usefull in those annoying tourney missions where only compulsory TROOP choices & scouts may start on the board.

Guardian defenders
I use a unit w/ a bright lance for this particular list. At these point levels I will sometimes run into AV14 tanks and it's nice to watch the other guy sweat a little. In this case guide will often be used on this unit. The guardians also perform admirably under the power of doom as well with their catapult fire. Their main task is to stay near the avatar and harlies making deepstriking a little risky for those trying to drop by the harlies. The warlock can provide a little AT punch in CC if need be. (seeing lots of defilers in chaos lists). Also, it's hard to field Eldrad without some guardians. 3 units total makes this a little easier on the comp score.

Fire dragons
2 units in falcons with great versatility. I can kill pretty much any tank with reliability (save for a monolith & some skimmers) and I can also deal with infantry quite well. A favorite tactic of mive vs. CC armies like nids / orks is I'll often bait them with the falcon and take the charge followed by the dragons getting out and toasting all of the bunched up guys with the heavy flamer. Priceless. Embarked dragons play into the VP denial engine as well. I'll usually only disembark to trade for something worth more than their 113 points.

Harlequins
This is the only type list (hybrid) that I'll run the harlies on foot in. I already have two slow walking elements in Eldrad & the Avatar so the speed is not an issue. My mobile walking firebase is pretty dangerous to get next to. The jester gets to annoy people with his pinning shuriken cannon until it's time to get busy. This is the only build that I take the jester in. (counter assault)

Vyper
A throw away unit for the most part due to it's survivability. I'll mainly use it to pop light vehicles due to it's S6 and high rate of fire (7 shots). Occasiaonally, I'll save it as a scoring system for objectives if the situation warrants it.

Falcons
Objective grabbers, dragon delivery system, VP denial and some occasiaonal firepower makes the mech part of this list as tough as the foot slogging part. I will often use the falcons (on turns they are shaken) as road blocks for the enemy making it difficult for them to get to my ground units until I want them to be engaged.

Fire prism
The prism can fill many of the rolls of the falcon except for troop delivery. It's main job however is to hang back and pound stuff with it's main gun.



I've had tremendous success with this list (and others similar to it) winning about a dozen tourneys. I don't currently play the list any more unless it's a hardcore type event. I've been really diversifying my lists of late.


Escalation can be a little annoying but it's not that bad. My tanks not starting on the table mean that I don't care if I go first - I'd probably at this point prefer to go second. I'd likey hide the rest till the meat of my list showed up. Eldrad + Avatar combo are a lot less effective in this situation. Escalation is certainly the weakpoint however. Sometimes, I have traded the Avatar for Yriel and switched up my ground elements a bit (warlock w/ embolden for example). This helps with my reserves & possible choice of deployment. It is not as powerfull as the Eldrad & Avatar combo though...

Also, I always start the Avatar behind cover in case I don't go first. Wouldn't want him gunned down before fortune is up and going. It doesn't matter if he makes it to combat or not. His fearless bubble is where he shines not to mention a ranged attack. As a SCORING unit your opponent must deal with him eventually. Any shooting going into him usually just feeds the VP denial even further.


Fluff
I put this last for a reason. As most know our craftworlds are basically all vanilla now. There are no more craftworld rules or regulations on unit choices. You field what you want. This is no fluff bunny army. It's for top level competition but trying to keep some semblance of fluff (Ulthwe for Eldrad & a decent ammount of guardians) - it still does pretty well in comp scoring.

The army is done in an Ulthwe scheme but is different enough that I could call it somethnig else if I wanted to - a varient perhaps. 1/3 of the models are guardians and that doesn't count the pilots and gunners of my skimmers. There is no council but then again practically no competitive Eldar lists will field one other than perhaps a bike council which is still rare. Eldrad takes the place of the council admirably if you ask me.


Lazarus.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2008, 03:40:59 PM by Lazarus »
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #1 on: February 2, 2008, 10:09:07 AM »
That's a nasty list, very solid.  I like symmetry and would suggest a second Guardian squad, but the reasoning behind the Pathfinders is solid and there are enough additional anti-tank units that the second Brightlance isn't necessary. 

It's a mean list and you know what you're doing, especially with Eldrad.
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Offline moc065

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #2 on: February 2, 2008, 03:13:48 PM »
Quote
The list
(210) Eldrad
(155) Avatar
(76) 3 guardian jetbikes w/ shuriken cannon upgrade
(76) 3 guardian jetbikes w/ shuriken cannon upgrade
(144) 6 pathfinders
(153) 10 guardian defenders w/ bright lance + warlock w/ conceal, wb & pistol
(113) 5 fire dragons + exarch w/ dragon's breath & crack shot
(113) 5 fire dragons + exarch w/ dragon's breath & crack shot
(260) 7 harlies+troupe master w/ power weapon, shadow seer and deathjester. 5 kisses total in the unit.
(70) Vyper w/ scatter laser & shuriken cannon
(220) Falcon w/ pulse laser, scatter laser, shuriken cannon, holo field, spirit stones, vectored engines & star engines
(220) Falcon w/ pulse laser, scatter laser, shuriken cannon, holo field, spirit stones, vectored engines & star engines
(190) Fire prism w/ prism cannon, shuriken cannon, holo field, spirit stones & vectored engines.

Total 2000

2 HQ
4 TROOP
3 ELITE
1 FAST
3 HEAVY

51 models
12 scoring units

Something it Wrong with the math or the Numbers for your Guardian unit.... (I'll assume the 148 part is correct and do my evaluation on it).

List has been fixed - Lazarus

OK, just to give the list a Scoring as to its overall potential for success with the folowing in mind.
Anti-tank -- Every unit actually has some some Anti-tank potential and at least 65% of that would be considered viable. -- Excellent (1)
Anti-MEQ -- With 7 units with AP=3, Rending, the amount of mass high strength shooting, Doom, etc, this list can certainly deal with MEQ. -- Excellent (1)
Anti-Horde -- Good amount of Long and Mid Range shooting and some really nice combonations. -- Good (.9)
Ranged Firepower -- Again plenty of long and mid ranged to go with its speed -- Good (.9)
Assault -- With only 1 dedicated assault squad You must use the CC ability after the enemy assaults. -- Average (.7)
Scoring Units -- 12 Scoring units is Good at 2K, especially considering the speed, combo's, and VP Denial potential of those units. -- Excellent (1)
Durability -- With 1/2 of the army being very resilient I would say that it is certainly durable. -- Good (.9)
Flexability -- Due to the synergy of the different units, Combo's available and its ability to react to change. Excellent (1)
Mission Capabiliy -- Certain missions could catch this "off guard", but overall its very well rounded. Good (.9)
Overall Dynamics and Theme -- "Hammer and Anvil" with most units being capable of several functions. Excellent (1)

Overall Score -- 9.3/10 Others may score it differently; but this Hybrid army has the potential to do well with just about anyone at its helm.

PS.. This is the highest score that I have ever given a list.

CaHG
« Last Edit: February 4, 2008, 02:32:55 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #3 on: February 2, 2008, 03:29:21 PM »
Posted by: Mr.Peanut

 
Quote
I like symmetry and would suggest a second Guardian squad

I have run up to 3 foot units in the past with good success.

Quote
It's a mean list and you know what you're doing,

Yeah, mainly why I stopped playing it. (lol)


Posted by: moc065

Quote
Something it Wrong with the math or the Numbers for your Guardian unit.... (I'll assume the 148 part is correct and do my evaluation on it).

Ooops, it's not correct. I was trying to do a bunch of different things while i was doing this - took a unit from the wrong list (several varient lists of this) - the unit is actually only supposed to be 10 guardians + warlock w/ conceal ss/p  bright lance. Cost should be 153 which means I'll drop a harlequin's kiss to make up the points. I'll adjust the list.

Quote
Assault -- With only 1 dedicated assault squad and few that can have a supporting a role this is where the list could suffer the most. -- Below Average

I don't think you give this enough credit here. I have caught demon bomb armies full on and killed them with this sort of list. Eldrad & the Avatar are simply unlikely to die and the harlies will be able to catapult from unit to unit as need be while my tanks run interference (blocking). Fearless means I'm not going anywhere and doom helps out the CC that needs it most....

Quote
Durability -- With 1/2 of the army being very resilient I would say that it is certainly durable. -- Good

I'm surpised that you don't think more of the "durability" of the list considering it is a hardcore VP denial system.


Not trying to pick apart your assessment though....just a bit surprised. I don't play this list anymore for a reason. (lol)

Edit: List fixed


Lazarus.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2008, 03:32:38 PM by Lazarus »
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Hypopheralcus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #4 on: February 2, 2008, 04:13:54 PM »
I don't know, your HQ's and the guardians seem kinda misplaced to me. The avatar can only make one avatar fearless, eldrad is too slow to support the rest of the army proplery. I would be interested how you plan to use them.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #5 on: February 2, 2008, 04:22:49 PM »
Posted by: Jago

Quote
I don't know, your HQ's and the guardians seem kinda misplaced to me

How so? An Ulthwe list w/ Eldrad & an Avatar...

Quote
The avatar can only make one avatar fearless,

I don't follow this....

Quote
eldrad is too slow to support the rest of the army proplery.


Did you just look at the list or did you read the desrciptions of the unit applications?

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline moc065

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #6 on: February 2, 2008, 04:38:21 PM »
Your return comments are valid; and I too would play this list with relative ease (inluding Assault and its durability). But at the same time I did the review from the laymens point of view, and I see in this list the potential for the untrained, impatient, or over agressive general to be cought short. Thus I scored those 2 out of 10 things as low as I did (plus the fact that the Guardian unit could have been totally differnent as well). Don't get me wrong Lazarus, I wouldn't enjoy playing against you with this list; but I certainly could take advantage of others if they used it.

CaHG
« Last Edit: February 2, 2008, 05:20:59 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Hypopheralcus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #7 on: February 2, 2008, 04:57:11 PM »
There's been some time between reading your initial post and answering so maybe I just forgot parts of it in the meanwhile.

I meant the only squad that benefits of the avatar's fearless bubble was the guardians, but well now I can see its use. Especially against other fast armies it's good to keep one's back clear.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #8 on: February 2, 2008, 05:40:16 PM »
Posted by: moc065

 
Quote
I did the review from the laymens point of view, and I see in this list the potential for the untrained, impatient, or over agressive general to be cought short.

Of course, it makes sense as I myself would not always be playing this list. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Quote
Don't get me wrong Lazarus, I wouldn't enjoy playing against you with this list;

But I'm a nice guy.  ::)
Don't worry, the list is retired.



Posted by: Jago

Quote
I meant the only squad that benefits of the avatar's fearless bubble was the guardians, but well now I can see its use.


All 3 units of guardians (till the bikes go far), the harlies as well as Eldrad himself. Also, I often am not unloading the dragons till turn 3 or so and the Avatar has worked his way at least 18" (more if I get off an assault) towards the enemy and likely supports them now too.

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #9 on: February 2, 2008, 06:48:17 PM »
Okay, I think it'll help to have my critique posted in this thread - you've been project-ed, you know, so while it's relevant I'll take a wander through it using the system I always use:

1-Background    Some info about the army, enemy, theatre and strategy
2-Composition   Weighted distribution amongst FOC slots
3-Utility            Units are suited to their task/not overupgraded
4-Flexibility        Army shows variety and units are versatile
5-Ingenuity       Strategies, Combos and backup plans have been considered

Each of the above five areas can earn up to 1 point each, for a maximum score of five. A score of 3 indicates a solid list, with scores of 4 or higher being very good/excellent.

Each section receives one of the following scores:
0.0: Little thought given to addressing this area
0.5: Moderate thought given to addressing this area
1.0: Thorough thought given to addressing this area

So, without further ado:

Background: 1
Each set of units has a good deal of description accompanying it detailing its usage, the army as a whole is presented in light of the arenas it is typically fielded in, an account for terrain strategies is given as well as consideration of the different missions it is fielded within. It is listed as a take-all-comers style - and since it is a retired list, it will not have to worry about any opponents anymore.

Composition: 1
The army is a little top/bottom heavy, to be fair. However, there are units represented from all areas of the force organization chart, and the units selected cover a broad range of potential enemy threats and playstyles. The units each fit different roles strongly while supporting the key design consideration of victory point denial. With most of the bases here covered, the weight given to the top and bottom of the army is not so bad. Additionally, the army list is at the intersection of two typical Eldar designs; the synthesis here is effective, well-executed, and relies on some units not typically committed to those forms.

Utility: .5
HQ:
Eldrad and the Avatar are used in their typical role as supporting elements of the army, and since both cannot be adjusted in any way, they are as much bang for the buck as they possibly can be.

Elites:
Here is a spin not commonly seen; two sets of dragons on a falcon with a harlie squad on foot [with a deathjester!] As the harlies are stated to provide counter-assault, the deathjester and non-kiss harlies are good investments. Since the point of this unit is to remain at full value throughout the game, having a lot of points tied to it makes sense; of course, it also gives the opponent even more incentive to destroy the squad outright. The fire dragons are in their mixed format, meaning they are not optimized, but remain effective.

Troops:
Two inexpensive jetbike teams accompanied by a small pathfinder team and a solid squad of guardians defenders. The bikes and the pathfinders are both tailored to be about as effective in their goals as they possibly can, kept cheap and to the point. The defenders add some nice AT to the list, though this is probably not a necessity. The spear in a defenders squad can also be an unnecessary expenditure, and conceal may not be an optimal power for a unit that spends much of its time in cover anyways.

Fast Attack:
A single vyper, built as a light-vehicle hunter and possible scoring unit. While the config is all right, it is not optimized for its occasional objective-grabbing role and has more points spent than necessary on a throw-away unit.

Heavy Support:
A full compliment of grav-tanks with virtually all the trimmings [though I do notice the lack of star engines on the prism, which doesn't need them!]. Lots of solid fire support and the expenditure on the vehicle upgrades makes good sense in light of the list's main strategy of victory points denial. The falcons could probably fare just as well with a second shuriken cannon over the scatter laser, as chances are they'll be in range of most enemy anyways.

Flexibility: 1
Almost every unit in this army can deal with any threat presented by an enemy, and they can do so in a wide variety of ways due to a good selection of different unit types being present. This means that no one part of the army is an absolute necessity and, furthermore, the vulnerabilities of some of the elements are not repeated too much throughout the list [meaning no one unit will be capable of owning all of your force]. Good options available in every game phase, allowing for a very proactive playstyle even when fielded defensively. A good job covering all of your bases.

Ingenuity: 1
You have a good idea as to how you want this army to play and have designed it to be very capable in that format [denying victory points while still making strong grabs for objectives]. More importantly, you have included some thought in your design about what you can do in situations that are not favorable to your playstyle, or how to change your actions up when you are incapable of performing a unit's main function. Also, you have included reasons for leaving out some of the other options you could have tried instead. I would still like to hear more about some of the tactics employed as backup plans, but this is one of the better accounts I've seen included in an army list. Nice job.

Summary: 4.5 [excellent]
The army list is well-written, the implementation of its elements are not left up to the reader to figure out, an account is given of how the army came into being, where and how it is fielded, units have been selected carefully and though units are not all optimized to their roles utility is traded for flexibility, and some contingency planning has been done. Finally, other players could probably use the army list presented here themselves, following guidelines given, and have a similar level of performance. A very thoughtful and well-presented army list.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #10 on: February 2, 2008, 07:41:11 PM »
Posted by: Gutstikk

Quote
The fire dragons are in their mixed format, meaning they are not optimized, but remain effective.

Altough I agree that they are not "optimized" (vs. vehicles) I think that this is their best build for the falcon. (for take all comer tourney play)

Quote
The defenders add some nice AT to the list, though this is probably not a necessity.

Agreed. The BL is only in there to perhaps get a tank at range without having to waste one of the dragon units for example.

Quote
The spear in a defenders squad can also be an unnecessary expenditure

Agreed. However, I had 3 points left with nothing to spend them on....

Quote
and conceal may not be an optimal power for a unit that spends much of its time in cover anyways.

Normally, I'd agree with you and put them in cover saving the points. Often, a unit used in that fashion would get the embolden warlock instead to keep them from running as the Avatar leaves them and to help re-roll priority tests. However, the unit's function in this list is to accompany the avatar & eldrad towards the enemy. Conceal (fortuned hopefully) makes them alot more survivable on their way to target as I can't guaranteee I'll have cover all the way to target.

Quote
A single vyper, built as a light-vehicle hunter and possible scoring unit. While the config is all right, it is not optimized for its occasional objective-grabbing role and has more points spent than necessary on a throw-away unit.

likely so. I had actually thought of replacing the vyper with 3 more jetbikes w/ a cannon upgrade but I'd have to find 6 more points to do it with. Before, it wasn't an option as I didn't have enough bikes painted for tourney play. Make one 6 man unit and one 3 man unit...


Quote
I would still like to hear more about some of the tactics employed as backup plans,

Do you mean tactics vs. individual opponents or mission types? This could get lengthy pretty quick. (lol)

Lazarus.

 
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #11 on: February 2, 2008, 07:53:03 PM »
Quote
Do you mean tactics vs. individual opponents or mission types? This could get lengthy pretty quick. (lol)

Specifically how you would play the list differently when you look at the table and your first thought is "I've lost;" when players can overcome that by rearranging their playstyle on the spot it overcomes the psychological causes of defeat. Also, any weird combos you pull off are nice to include as well. I kinda figured on the advancing guardians, though it is just as easy to have them deny VPs by holding them back...

The section on utility is all about getting the most from a unit for the least points and having it streamlined to its function as much as possible. I feel it is easier to have an excellent score of 4 or higher from me with a moderate Utility score than it is to do so with a moderate Flexibility score. Often players with inflexible unit builds do not have contingency plans at all...

The system is basically designed so that a score of 4 points or more is an excellent score because players all have different needs and skills, and this allows a player who does not want to include any background information about the list or any alternative tactics to still get a decent score on an army list where the list itself, and not its application, is what the player wants reviewed. A .5 in background for saying "The list is all-comers tourney material" and a .5 in Ingenuity for some simple statements about which units will do what will allow a really solid list to score up to four.

It is not just the fire dragons, but the aggregate total of the elites, the storm guard, the falcons and the vyper that lost you that .5pts, and your list is better without having earned them - that's why a 4 is generally high enough. The 5 will often not be attainable due to differences in design priorities between myself and the player posting a list I review.

There's probably been 2-3 other lists that have scored this high, out of probably 20 or so that I've done, for whatever that's worth...

Offline TheEldarGuy

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #12 on: February 2, 2008, 07:55:52 PM »
A nice intinidating list making sure the opposition pick their targets correctly; with a wrong choice of target selection, your opponent will find him/herself in a world of hurt.

I can see you being very successful with that list, it seems to suit your style considerably (of course I haven't played you but from our post/counter-post discussions I can see this is you down to a tee).

I think if your opponent comes out with 8 to 10 squads of Marines scattered with Dreads and a Librarian - that'd probably be a close match I'm betting.

If I had to score it I'd put it in the 8.5 out of 10. I'd say my main point of contention is the reliance on Harlies as your only CC offering, this makes the list a bit short to be comfortable (from my point of view) in Close Combat.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 2000 point competitive hybrid eldar
« Reply #13 on: February 2, 2008, 08:08:44 PM »
Posted by: Gutstikk

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Specifically how you would play the list differently when you look at the table and your first thought is "I've lost;" when players can overcome that by rearranging their playstyle on the spot it overcomes the psychological causes of defeat. Also, any weird combos you pull off are nice to include as well. I kinda figured on the advancing guardians, though it is just as easy to have them deny VPs by holding them back...

Ok, I'll try to post some stuff up later but I'm getting ready to take the wife our for her birthday at the moment. :)

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It is not just the fire dragons, but the aggregate total of the elites, the storm guard, the falcons and the vyper that lost you that .5pts, and your list is better without having earned them - that's why a 4 is generally high enough. The 5 will often not be attainable due to differences in design priorities between myself and the player posting a list I review.

I wasn't fishing for that last .5 with any of my replies. I was only trying to offer some insight into why I made the choices that I did. The list I posted is a variant of many different lists that I've played over the last year or so at lots of tourneys. Elements of this list saw 9 games worth of 'Ard boyz play as well (undefeated). The list could still honestly be tweaked slightly to suit the preference of the person playing and still do pretty well I think.

I think both of your reviews are amazing in detail & consideration. I only wish that my reviews were as good on the few times that I take the time to give them.

My only worry with this project is that people will latch onto what they preceive to be the "toughest" tourney list and we'll start seeing this as a cookie cutter template with full instructions on how it works and against what with contingency plans as well. Before, someone might have copied a list they saw on a forum and then tried it but without the same success that the original author might have enjoyed.

I'll be posting a fun & fluffy army as well so I don't look like a complete bad guy.


Thanks for the reviews guys. :)


Posted by: TheEldarGuy

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A nice intinidating list making sure the opposition pick their targets correctly; with a wrong choice of target selection, your opponent will find him/herself in a world of hurt.

I'm a big student of target priority. You're spot on that they had better pick the right ones and maximize their chances whenever possible as I won't give them many opportunities.

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I think if your opponent comes out with 8 to 10 squads of Marines scattered with Dreads and a Librarian - that'd probably be a close match I'm betting.

I'm nearly undefeated in tourney play vs. standard marines so far....

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If I had to score it I'd put it in the 8.5 out of 10. I'd say my main point of contention is the reliance on Harlies as your only CC offering, this makes the list a bit short to be comfortable (from my point of view) in Close Combat.


I agree it would be nice to have an extra CC unit in there but it's simply not possible while still keeping this play style. It does much better (in my hands anyways) than the CC elements would suggest





Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

 


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