Topic: "Knives in a Gun Fight"

[Ragewind]

My CC army is as follows, maybe you guys can get some ideas from it.

Points = 1843

Lord( Destroyer Body, Gaze of Flame, Solar Pulse, Phlyactry, Cronometron) + Warsytche

Lord (Destroyer Body, Gaze of Flame, Phlyatry, Res Orb) + War scythe

Wraiths x3
Wraiths x3
Scarabs x10

Warriors x10
Warriors x10

Flayed Ones x6
Flayed Ones x6
Pariahs x5

Tomb Syder x2
Tomb Syder x2
Tomb Syder x2

First off I attach both the lords to the wraith squads and Turbo boost them along with the scarabs towards one section of the army that they will hurt the most.

Flayed ones Outflank and hopefully join up with the Lords, otherwise they are a great distractions performing a pincer attack.

The Pariahs and the Warriors walk in a V formation behind a line of Tomb Spyders forming a larger V, since the spyders are monstrous creatures they block LOS and my enemy can no longer target the Warriors or vulnerable Pariahs/ typically the V formation runs forward letting the souless ability of my elites do some dirty work for the CC squads, and with the Sypders spawning scaracbs they now become a T6 units with 3+ saves and 5 Wounds!! by the new rules for mixed units.

Also its SUPER important to use the Solar Pulse on the first turn to save your Lord a world of hurt from shooting attacks, works like a CHARM! Also on Dawn of War this effectively gives you 2 turns of Night Fighting.

I have even killed a enemy Night Bringer between some Spyders and a Lord w/ Wraith Retinue. Let the Bloody Harvest BEGIN!

[Aluinn]

I don't know about the solar pulse. Keep in mind that it does not actually induce night fighting conditions, but only makes the enemy test if they shoot at the Lord with the pulse or a unit he's joined. Now sure this protects a unit of Wraiths, but you have two, and present plenty of other targets to boot. With other units you might do well putting the solar pulse lord and his squad in front and another one behind to get cover, but Wraiths don't benefit from cover saves at all.

Also, with true line of sight, note that your opponent can see around and possibly even under Tomb Spyders, so they may not be completely reliable in that role. They are still good for other reasons of course, but your enemy only has to see one Warrior of a unit to fire at them, and an arm or a leg will do. 

But I really don't mean to criticize too much; it does look like a very strong list overall and resembles pretty closely the other close combat Necron armies that I've seen performing well.

EDIT: I forgot to mention also that this army is worth 16 Kill Points, which is a lot. You may want to consolidate some things into larger squads, like taking a single unit of 10 Flayed Ones instead of the two smaller units, and sadly to take less Tomb Spyders. I like them too, but KP punishes you for taking them pretty harshly.

[Liquid Shadow]

...and with the Sypders spawning scaracbs they now become a T_ units with _+ saves and _ Wounds!! by the new rules for mixed units...

Just wanted to point out that while the Scarabs do count as having the same toughness as the Spyders (at least while you only have one swarm out at a time), they don't get to use the Spyders' saving throw. Read pg 25 'Complex Units' and it explains that part.

[Velox Letum]

Out of curiosity how are the scarabs getting t6?

Tomb spyders have 2 wounds and scarabs have 3, page 19 says the majority is used.

Wouldn't this just reduce the save and toughness of the spyder?

[CrownAxe]

They changed it for 5ed

now its by model majority, not wound majority

[Velox Letum]

What page does it state models instead of wounds? I must have missed it.

[BearBitesHurt]

I'm not too crazy about your wargear choices on the lords.  Why not give one of them the phase shifter?  Phylactery is a waste of points IMHO.

So does this list win a lot?

[Changeyname]

What page does it state models instead of wounds? I must have missed it.

as you said, its on pg 19
it says majority toughness hence wounds dont factor into it, look at the models present and work out how many of each toughness are there, use the majority

[Gutstikk]

A lightning field would be worth losing the solar pulse for. This enables the Lord to join with the scarabs, and thereby stand a chance of eliminating things like Harlequins, Wyches, Hormagaunts and etc., without suffering death by armor save. The rest looks doable, though I'd also consider losing some scarabs to add some more flayed ones. Depending on how you advance these squads may need to last over a couple turns of attrition, and numbers is all that's gonna do it for them. Having both Destroyer Lords up front is better for the wraith teams but worse for the Flayed Ones/Warriors, who may need the orb just as much - the tradeoff being, do you put more beat into your stick, or keep your line advancing with impunity? I would say having the spyders provide 4+ cover helps with this somewhat, but not completely.

Overall the list looks pretty good; how are you dividing your force? Flayed Ones/Spyders/Pariahs,2 Lords/2 Wraith teams, and Warriors?

[Jarkeler]

Your entire list is a foot-slogger besides your two Lords. Take the Destroyer bodies off of them, and you save points for more Warriors/Flayed Ones. And give both Lords a Res Orb. This way they can advance behind your lines, along with the other fear-units (Flayed Ones and Pariahs), and blanket your line with Res Orb coverage. This way also, makes sure that the Lord gets into CC the same time as your Flayed Ones and Pariahs, using the fear combo to it's max (Pariahs negating leadership to 7, Lord further reducing it by one with Gaze of Flame, then the enemy squad having to take a Terrifying Visage test for the Flayed Ones).

Overall, this is the last I'm going for, except for waaayyy less Tomb Spyders and more Warriors.

[Gutstikk]

Your entire list is a foot-slogger besides your two Lords

Actually, he does in fact list the following in his army:

Wraiths x3
Wraiths x3
Scarabs x10

Now, dropping the destroyer lords makes this whole offensive section much less effective. Three wraiths in CC might win fights against MEQ's, but don't count on it - 24 attacks -> 12 hits -> 10 wounds -> 3 failed saves. Then, assuming 10 marines, the wraiths get hit with 20 attacks -> 10 hits -> 5 wounds -> 1-2 dead. Very close. And that's bog standard marines, no CC special weapons [bolt pistol and ccw as standard].

Now, 2 destroyer lords with warscythes will statistically drop an extra 2 models on the charge, making that quite a nice victory. It's even more important against terminators, or say, fortuned warlocks which are swiftly gaining in popularity. Plus, with the scarabs, and the simple addition of a lightning field, he has some nice answers to units that dish it out but can't take it.

As for the footslogger section - it could benefit from the Lord, but definitely two is overkill, and unnecessary. The 6 tomb spyders will take care of quite a few combats all by themselves, and the Pariahs will only help them do this. The flayed ones are there to be annoying mostly and make this setup perform better against larger numbers of enemies. The warriors I don't see as really being part of that battle group at all - when I use similar lists, I try to keep my warriors out of the fight as long as possible, and generally this is the way to avoid phase out with such an army.

Putting the second lord on foot could be good but is more likely to be bad, as it leaves his whole fast attack section without a lot of brilliant options. I would aim to keep at least 1 destroyer lord in this list.

[Jarkeler]

Wow, sorry. Completely skipped over the Fast Attack section. Well, disregard my post. Two Destroyer Lords with 6 Wraiths and 10 Scarabs will do nicely.

[Ragewind]

Your entire list is a foot-slogger besides your two Lords

Actually, he does in fact list the following in his army:

Wraiths x3
Wraiths x3
Scarabs x10

Now, dropping the destroyer lords makes this whole offensive section much less effective. Three wraiths in CC might win fights against MEQ's, but don't count on it - 24 attacks -> 12 hits -> 10 wounds -> 3 failed saves. Then, assuming 10 marines, the wraiths get hit with 20 attacks -> 10 hits -> 5 wounds -> 1-2 dead. Very close. And that's bog standard marines, no CC special weapons [bolt pistol and ccw as standard].

Now, 2 destroyer lords with warscythes will statistically drop an extra 2 models on the charge, making that quite a nice victory. It's even more important against terminators, or say, fortuned warlocks which are swiftly gaining in popularity. Plus, with the scarabs, and the simple addition of a lightning field, he has some nice answers to units that dish it out but can't take it.

As for the footslogger section - it could benefit from the Lord, but definitely two is overkill, and unnecessary. The 6 tomb spyders will take care of quite a few combats all by themselves, and the Pariahs will only help them do this. The flayed ones are there to be annoying mostly and make this setup perform better against larger numbers of enemies. The warriors I don't see as really being part of that battle group at all - when I use similar lists, I try to keep my warriors out of the fight as long as possible, and generally this is the way to avoid phase out with such an army.

Putting the second lord on foot could be good but is more likely to be bad, as it leaves his whole fast attack section without a lot of brilliant options. I would aim to keep at least 1 destroyer lord in this list.

You hit it on the nail, and someone mentioned switching out the Solar Pulse with a Lighting Field which I DO use on occasion./ Against things like Tau or Marines with Las and Plas I find the Solar Pulse to me more useful.

Today I got a 5 squads of 10 warriors and a Destoyer lord in combat with my CC units due to having them spread out. The game ended quickly after that for my opponent.

Also the Spyders don't grant a 4+ cover save unless the model is tall enough to shoot over them which is mostly just tanks. Most infanty models even those on bikes are not high enough to shoot over them thus granting my models immunity vs shooting.

The warriors are there because I HAVE to take them, sometimes I hang them back but mostly they follow close behind, besides the kinda intimidating for my enemy so see so many models moving towards him.

[Gutstikk]

Check out the LOS section in the 5th ed rules again. The base the spider is resting on doesn't block LOS, just the spyder body. Since you can't overlap the jetbike bases, and they are significant;y bigger than the spyder itself, and since the spyder is liable to be up in the air... it should be difficult to completely block LOS to every model in the units behind them.

I liked the Solar Pulse at first, till I realized that when the opponent fails the vision check they are allowed to target a different unit instead. Unlike Eldar harlequins, this means I am spending points so that the opponent can still try to shoot my unit, and if they fail to see them there are no real bad consequences [except maybe positional difficulties]. It can prove useful though, and if you face a lot of las/plas could be helpful early on... it'd be your call.

The warriors are there because I HAVE to take them

Your playstyle seems quite similar to my own. It's nice to see more CC Necron players out there.

[Ragewind]

Check out the LOS section in the 5th ed rules again. The base the spider is resting on doesn't block LOS, just the spyder body. Since you can't overlap the jetbike bases, and they are significant;y bigger than the spyder itself, and since the spyder is liable to be up in the air... it should be difficult to completely block LOS to every model in the units behind them.

I liked the Solar Pulse at first, till I realized that when the opponent fails the vision check they are allowed to target a different unit instead. Unlike Eldar harlequins, this means I am spending points so that the opponent can still try to shoot my unit, and if they fail to see them there are no real bad consequences [except maybe positional difficulties]. It can prove useful though, and if you face a lot of las/plas could be helpful early on... it'd be your call.

The warriors are there because I HAVE to take them

Your playstyle seems quite similar to my own. It's nice to see more CC Necron players out there.

The killer thing here is because you measure LOS from the models point of view the spyders will almost always block LOS. Take for example a space marine drawing a diagonal line from the space marine to try and look under the spyder will get you nothing but dirt. The closer you are the harder it is to do this.

The spyders indeed use the big bases but if you turn them sideways with claws extended then you have a larger range of blockage, then it also comes into play on how you modeled your spyders. Two of mine are ripping a space marine Termie apart and can afford more LOS goodness on virtue of that alone.

Even if you cannot completely block the units behind (which is possible in some circumstances) you still grant them a 4+ invul save vs shooting and most of your force will be necrons anyway so will be afforded the WBB roll.

   8
  8 8
 8 8 8
11111

In the above crappy diagram you can see with some proper positioning of the spyders (number 8 ) its possible to completely block the warriors behind (Number 1), this works best if you enemy is not spread out too much, but even if they are you only need to face the Heavy Weapons capable of killing your troops with one shot.

[BearBitesHurt]

The spyders indeed use the big bases but if you turn them sideways with claws extended then you have a larger range of blockage, then it also comes into play on how you modeled your spyders. Two of mine are ripping a space marine Termie apart and can afford more LOS goodness on virtue of that alone.

Well, no, actually it doesn't.  The LOS rules also specifically state that all the extra stuff you put on your models doesn't block LOS(ie: rocks, bushes, Terminators.)

[Ragewind]

The spyders indeed use the big bases but if you turn them sideways with claws extended then you have a larger range of blockage, then it also comes into play on how you modeled your spyders. Two of mine are ripping a space marine Termie apart and can afford more LOS goodness on virtue of that alone.

Well, no, actually it doesn't.  The LOS rules also specifically state that all the extra stuff you put on your models doesn't block LOS(ie: rocks, bushes, Terminators.)

Well it was more of a after thought, I don't think it has ever actually come up. I suppose spreading out their legs would help if you are not proficent in setup or practice, however this delves into the realm of modeling your guys to take advantage of the rules, if it works for you great otherwise no worries, you're mileage may vary.

[BearBitesHurt]

Yeah, that's territory it's best to stay out of if you're worried about the perception of your sportsmanship.

Otherwise you see a lot of crouching and prone infantry models.  Just a little too powergame for my taste.