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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2017, 06:29:30 AM »
G'day Fenris. I don't think there is any system that can be balanced. Some people will always find ways to sway the pendulum their way. Some will find a way to create cheese. Some of us will find a way to counter both. The only way for there to be a totally balanced game is for all the armies to have the same rules/weapons/wargear, and we know this is not what we want.

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2017, 07:01:49 AM »
Retreating will go both ways though. No more tarpitting Dreads and similar stuff with a bunch of cheap Grots or whatever  :D

People have voiced their concerns with falling back in the FB comments and GW said "in order to retreat, you'll have to survive the combat phase though". From how it sounds, retreating may well lead to the (belated) destruction of that unit and not being able to anything in the following turn, you'll have to have supporting units nearby or else the reatreating unit will simply get shot to pieces and/or get hacked down for good in the following combat.

It's very "Rogue Traderesque" (sp). I'm rather optimistic about it.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2017, 08:36:11 AM »
I do think, though, that it does make assault trickier than it currently is (and it's already pretty tricky). If they remove overwatch, then this will be a wash, I think. There's a bunch of other things they can do, too, to give assaulting a boost. Like everything else, we need to wait and see. I can totally understand how assault-army players would be nervous.

I would be nervous, too, as a Khorne Daemons player. Of course, I almost never wind up locked in combat since everything dies when I assault it. Except for Dreads. It will be super nice to be able to fall back from dreads.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2017, 09:11:27 AM »
Seeing the new move out of combat rules, I'm fairly confident CC armies just got their final nail in their coffin. Even if you can assault from transports and reserves and jump into new combats and continue, it still does not add up to the power to retreat after a single round of combat.

The only fix would be 24" assault moves for everyone, and since the attacker hits first, just gang up on one unit, then consolidate into the next and it would throw the pendulum far into the opposite direction.
Having any resemblance of balance under these rules will be nigh impossible.
Maybe that is the thing for GW, if they can't fix it, wreck it.
I was positive to 8th ed before these things came out, but now I just started to lean the other way.


You have the new rulebook already then? That's the only way I can see you being confident assault is dead. All I have seeb so far is teasers of rules.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2017, 09:32:18 AM »
Oh, hey--just occurred to me:

You don't have to fall back from Dreads. You can actually hurt them now. They're T7, W8, 3+ Sv. Get enough hellblades and...well, that's doable.

I dunno, maybe. Again, we need the whole book. And the Codexes (which seem to be very much alive, thank you!). 

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2017, 11:17:03 AM »
Just a couple of reminders to everyone:

1. Please remember to avoid off topic one liners (I've removed one such post).

2. Watch the stats.  As much as we all want to know the answers, let's just link to GW material to see them, rather than writing them all out here.

Thank you :).
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2017, 12:07:39 PM »
@Saim-dann: Good day to you too :) You are correct, however I think it would be nice to have less smelly cheese to make it harder to find. Also unnecessary randomization I've got my fill of, already in 6th &7th ed. Noone where I play uses mysterious objectives because of it.
I'd rather have flamers do 4 hits flat, and just for kicks, if the target unit has less than 4 models, the superfluous hits will hit the closest unit friend or foe. ;)

Also with the removal of templates/blasts, movement trays may actually become a thing, as there is no need to spread out the units.
Edit: I'd actually rather have the foot of gork return. ;)

@Killersquid: I just can't see any rule that would balance the move out of combat.

@Everyone: How about the psykers, seems like business as usual to me:
New Warhammer 40,000 – Psychic Phase – Warhammer Community
Almost like rolling against Ld again, except each spell sets the value.
Smite for everyone is just weird though.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 12:10:53 PM by Fenris »
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Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2017, 12:13:11 PM »
@Everyone: How about the psykers, seems like business as usual to me:
New Warhammer 40,000 – Psychic Phase – Warhammer Community
Almost like rolling against Ld again, except each spell sets the value.
Smite for everyone is just weird though.

Agreed! Not quite sure what to think of the mortal wounds thing at this point. I'm skeptical about it for a couple of reasons

- every Psyker gets it
- easy to cast
- inflicting mortal wounds
- spammable (?)

Again, without knowing exactly how things will work it's tough to make a prediction (but still fun). Thinking about all my Farseers, Warlocks, Shadowseers... I guess Eldar could dish out a good amount of mortal wounds as longs as I get LOS. On the other hand, this might be an answer to all those crazy Invul-Reroll combos out there.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2017, 12:26:54 PM »
Psychic powers are essentially going to work in much the same way as they do in Age of Sigmar.  That's okay by me in terms of the mechanics, since it will eliminate a lot of ridiculous randomness of the psychic phase, but the trade-off is that diversity is likely to be reduced.  On balance, I'd say that this is a pragmatic decision.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2017, 12:54:37 PM »
The psychic thing seems okay to me, though a lot of unanswered questions:

1) Where will the psychic phase fall? Before or after movement?
2) Do higher level psykers get to add anything to their psychic test (I would presume mastery level, but still)?
3) Do you get to select powers from a list, do you have a set number of powers (as in AoS), or is it still randomly generated?

I really hope we still have a list of powers from which to choose. I do *not* want to return to the bad old days of 4th/5th Edition psychic powers, where you had a very narrow range of choice and almost all of them were pretty lousy.

Smite looks like a reasonable power for everybody to have. D3 moral wounds isn't that much. Hopefully the higher-end psychic powers have a bit more punch than that. Though, I suppose an army full of horrors could put some nasty pain on the enemy, given the number of smites they could conceivably get off. (assuming, of course, Horrors are even still defined as psykers) 

Offline Calamity

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2017, 01:49:40 PM »
With their new psychic powers system they've literally done every single thing I hoped they would.  ;D

And not to brag, but I did the same thing with my own homemade system.  I even named the basic power smite.  8)

Anyone worried about the idea of smite, don't be.  It can be used to represent the pysker using whatever powers they have to simply kill.  A pyromancer could shoot fireballs, a telekinetic pysker could hurl a boulder at the target, a telepathic pysker could fry their brains...it's all in your imagination.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:51:07 PM by Captain Calamity »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2017, 02:09:25 PM »
Anyone worried about the idea of smite, don't be.  It can be used to represent the pysker using whatever powers they have to simply kill.  A pyromancer could shoot fireballs, a telekinetic pysker could hurl a boulder at the target, a telepathic pysker could fry their brains...it's all in your imagination.

Yup, totally agreed here. There isn't much reason each and every basic psychic attack needs to be completely different.

That said, I do still hope they keep a variety of attack powers around for flavor. Things for killing vehicles, for instance, or for hitting multiple units at once.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #92 on: April 28, 2017, 02:42:12 PM »


@Killersquid: I just can't see any rule that would balance the move out of combat.
.

But you don't have the full rules. You don't know the penaltys that fleeing from combat could cause.

It's extremely short sighted, and premature to announce that close combat is dead on hints of rules. It's the same to make any grand generalizations at this stage.

Wait for the full rules to be released and play a few games.


Quote
The psychic thing seems okay to me, though a lot of unanswered questions:

1) Where will the psychic phase fall? Before or after movement?
2) Do higher level psykers get to add anything to their psychic test (I would presume mastery level, but still)?
3) Do you get to select powers from a list, do you have a set number of powers (as in AoS), or is it still randomly generated?


1) They said that psychic phase happens at the same time. Between movement and shooting.

2) Master levels only dictate how many spells you can cast/ dispel a turn.

3) who knows.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2017, 03:09:06 PM »
1) They said that psychic phase happens at the same time. Between movement and shooting.

Wait, where did they say this? Not in that article, surely. 

Quote
2) Master levels only dictate how many spells you can cast/ dispel a turn.

Well, first off: how can you be sure that's all they do?

Second, assuming you're right:
Booooo. Boo, I say. Well, unless you can try to cast the same power multiple times.

Who in hell is going to bother with a hard-to-cast spell, then (an 8+, say)? You'll never get it to go off reliably, not without some kind of buff. Granted, maybe all these powers will be easier to cast than that, but given that the bottom end is a 5...

IF they don't get a buff, hopefully the difficulties do not stretch too high. Say 5s for the equivalent of WC1 powers, 6 for WC2, 7 for WC3 or something. 

Of course, there's only so much we can extrapolate right now, and it's reasonable to expect the psychic phase to get a bit of a nerf, but if I can't get powers (all of them) to work at greater than 50% odds, I'm not that enthused of making an army full of psykers (i.e. two of my standing armies).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 03:10:59 PM by Wyddr »

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2017, 03:50:17 PM »
Check the post on their Facebook page. They are responding to questions there.


Also, I'm going to put it out there, rolling two dice looking for a 6-8 is more reliable then the warp charge mechanic. At least all your psychers will participate instead of most being warpcharge caddies for one or two guys.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2017, 05:05:55 PM »
If it's like AoS, then psykers will come with specific powers. Hopefully smite doesn't take up one of those slots if all pyskers get it.

I'm also going to assume that multiple psykers in the same unit can't cast the same power more than once...Multiple D6 smites that ignore armor and invul saves sounds super OP. Possibly some other mechanic might prevent this.

I'm with Irisado - it worries me, like in the case with my eldar, what seems like fewer options will lead to blandness.

also curious if this means "BRB" powers that everyone shares are going away. Hope so, and everyone gets unique powers.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2017, 05:21:42 PM »
I can see them doing a 'rule of 1' sort of thing. One of each power attempt per turn.

I'm going to now make assumptions based on Age of Sigmar.


I can see each psyche getting powers on their datasheet, or a table of powers for their faction to choose from. Going to guess at initial launch, each psyker might have their own power and when their codex is released they'll have a table each psyker can additionally choose from.

I can also see the Rulebook powers staying, as they are rather ubiquitous. Probably still in tables, but like in AoS you can either pick or roll (your choice).

So, each psyker may have a combination of datasheet power and/or rulebook power and/or codex powers. Just perhaps not all three at launch.

I'm excited to see what'll happen.

I'm just so happy that folks won't be taking units just for adding more warpcharge. The psychic phase will really speed up with psyker heavy armies. It's been really frustrating waiting for 20-50min for folks to finish their psychic phases each turn. Warpcharges were neat, but scaled so poorly lol.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2017, 06:16:48 PM »
That's true about everybody getting a shot in this new phase. I still think high-level casters should be more reliable.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2017, 06:26:47 PM »
That's true about everybody getting a shot in this new phase. I still think high-level casters should be more reliable.

Agreed, and that's what their wargear or specific data sheet can help with.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2017, 06:56:20 PM »
Just seems easier to just let them add their mastery level. Worked fine in WHFB.

 


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