Topic: 3x 1500p lists covering Ulthwé, Alaitoc and Biel-Tan (using the new codex)

[Fenris]

I've been tinkering around with what I can do with my current models, and came up with three lists I'd like to try out, I think they are quite fluffy, but should still be able to give most lists a challenge even in a competitive environment:

Ulthwé:

Guardian Battlehost:
130 Farseer
-Jetbike, spirit stone of anath'lan.
90 10x Guardians
-EML.
+120 Wave Serpent
-Shuriken cannon.
90 10x Guardians
-EML.
+120 Wave Serpent
-Shuriken cannon.
90 10x Guardians
-EML.
+120 Wave Serpent
-Shuriken cannon.
40 Vyper
210 3x War walkers
-6x BL.
30 Vaul's wrath support battery
-Shadow weaver.

Seer Council:
195 Eldrad
100 Farseer
105 3x Warlocks

Outcasts:
60 5x Rangers

1500p


Alaitoc:

CAD:
HQ:
140 Illic Nightspear
TROOPS:
120 10x Rangers
65 5x Dire Avengers
+120 Wave Serpent
-Shuriken cannon.

Aspect formation:
193 9x Striking Scorpions
-Exarch, claw.
+120 Wave Serpent
-Shuriken cannon.
130 5x Warp Spiders
-Exarch, powerblades, TL-spinners.
175 5x Dark Reapers
-Exarch, starshot.
+120 Wave Serpent
-Shuriken cannon.

Aspect Formation:
105 5x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch, sunrifle.
105 5x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch, sunrifle.
105 5x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch, sunrifle.

1498p

Biel-Tan:

Guardian Stormhost:
100 Farseer
72 8x Storm Guardians
- 2x Powerswords.
72 8x Storm Guardians
- 2x Powerswords.
72 8x Storm Guardians
- 2x Powerswords.
40 Vyper
60 War walker
30 Vaul's wrath support weapon battery
-Shadow weaver.

Heroes:
98 Autarch
-Chainsword, Catapult, Wings, banshee mask.

Aspect host:
85 5x Howling banshees
-Exarch, executioner.
193 9x Striking Scorpions
-Exarch, claw.
90 5x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch.

Aspect host:
120 5x Fire Dragons
-Exarch.
135 5x Dark Reapers
-Exarch.
105 5x Warp Spiders
-Exarch.

Dire Avenger Shrine: Edit: Aspect host:
75 5x Dire Avengers
-Exarch.
75 5x Dire Avengers
-Exarch.
75 5x Dire Avengers
-Exarch.

1497p

Which list would you most rather face?
Which list would you most rather play with?
Which one is the most fluffy/competitive?
Other thoughts?

[Partninja]

I'm not sure about the Ulthwe list. I feel it doesn't have enough meat to it. It will have a lot of power in the psychic phase for sure, but I feel like it won't offer too much anywhere else. What are your plans for it exactly?

[Fenris]

The idea with the Ulthwé list is to have an invincible unit, with psykers going to to the middle of the board, with either fortune, sanctuary, invisibility and protect, they should be tough enough to just sit there. With whichblades, and Eldrads staff they should be ok in CC against most opposing units.

The jetseer will either join the council or move around casting powers depending on which powers he get's, if the council is ignored, they will still be providing the jetseer with warp charges.

The Vyper and the artillery are just formation tax, but can be used to harass things, they will usually start in reserves to not give away first blood.

Rangers will grab a home objective.

War walkers will scout forward, and shoot the heaviest tank they can find, guided by the council or the jetseer they should be destroying a tank each turn.

I know the seer council would do better with more warlocks, but I just don't have the models yet, maybe it would be better to disperse them to the guardian units?

The guardians will (unless facing flyers) be sitting in their serpents until about turn 4, when the serpents will unleash their shields, and the guardians will make the final push for taking objectives.

For 1750p or 1850p games I will probably ally in some DE reavers as a bodyguard for the jetseer.

[Partninja]

Interesting. I still feel it doesn't have enough punch. I would drop 1-2 wave serpents, run the guardians on foot with warlocks in the squads, and run the Avatar to support them. Maybe fit in an aspect formation with Banshees and Reapers.

[Ciliano]

I tried to build an Ulthwé list on 1500 points myself - was quite similar as yours - and came to the conclusion that the Council is just too heavy pointswise. Note that you need at least 5 Warlocks in this council. As you are very short in points, I would recommend to not take Eldrad but rather invest in more firepower. If you treat the Vyper and the Support Platform as "tax", then you might choose the normal CAD instead. But you can expand these units to solid cornerstones which start to have an impact on the battlefield if you invest just a bit more - a second platform, a decent weapon for the Vyper (a handful of points for a Starcannon!). I second partninjas proposition to run the Guardians on foot, it will enhance your psychic power even more - but if you don't have the Warlocks, then the Seer's Council might not be the ideal formation for you to choose. One can represent Ulthwé very close with the normal CAD but I can see why you want to take the Council

[Grizzlykin]

Well there is a few things i would concider on the ulthwe list, dropping one or more serpent, push the vyper up, take a 2man warlock conclave in the base and go for eldrad as a standalone in the heroes formation. Eldrad with one unit, warlock with the two other guardian unit, farseer zipping around casting power. I would concider trying to include an aspdct shrine in there as it would bring some nice punch to the list.

For the alaitoc list. I would rather have the eldar detachment. I would therefore go for guardian host, with some heavy hitting walker. I always had an image of alaitoc being guardian and walker oriented with the ranger as support. So i would have illic in the heroes formation and a unit of 10 ranger to have with him.
Get some starcannon or eml (to your liking) in the guardian units and some bl in the walker units, star canon on vyper aswell and shadow weaver for platform. I you have spare point after this either concider some serpent for the guardian or think about some aspects shrines (better in my opinion if that work point wise). Thats where i would head if i was going for alaitoc.

For the biel tan list i don't know if you prefered not to put one or did not want to put one but, with bieltan i think avatar is a must have, in my opinion. Even if i say that i don't know where i would shave the point for this. That's the only things that tickle me with the fact that your shrines are in too few member in my opinion. This squad are too small, they wil get shred to easily i think.

There you go

[Fenris]

@Ciliano: You are correct, I had to rewrite the ulthwé list, I don't want to go unbound. I have therefore re-written the entire Ulthwé list, but I will have to go get some more warlocks for it. here's what I came up with:


Ulthwé draft2:

Guardian Stormhost:
130 Farseer
-Jetbike, spirit stone of anath'lan.
107 8x Storm Guardians
- 2x Powerswords, 2x fusion guns
+ Warlock.
107 8x Storm Guardians
- 2x Powerswords, 2x fusion guns.
+ Warlock.
107 8x Storm Guardians
- 2x Powerswords, 2x fusion guns.
+ Warlock.
55 Vyper
-EML.
210 War walkers
- 6x Bright lance.
90 Vaul's wrath support weapon battery
-D-cannon.
+ Warlock.

Seer Council:
195 Eldrad
100 Farseer
175 5x Warlocks

Dire Avenger Shrine: (Black guardians)
117 9x Dire Avengers
117 9x Dire Avengers
75 5x Dire Avengers
-Exarch, Powerweapon & shuriken pistol.

1500p

Still no Avatar in this list though, the reason I'm not running 30 Guardians + 30 storm guardians is because I do not have the models, sure I could proxy my 25 Avengers as guardians in friendly games, but I wouldn't bring that to a tournament.

@Grizzlykin:
I think I've fixed some issues in my draft2 Ulthwé list
In the Alaitoc list I thought it would be too much guardians using either of the hosts, still I could easily swap those avengers for one unit of guardians, I just didn't have the points for them, when I decided to take wave serpents over war walkers. Maybe I should drop 2 serpents and add a unit of 3 walkers, and use the spare points for trading the avengers into guardians?

For Biel-Tan as well as for Ulthwé I would love to bring an Avatar, I used to runAvatar + Eldrad back in 2nd ed. Due to force majure my Avatar was sadly destroyed, and since the avatar has not really been competitive, I haven't got myself to buy a new one. The FW avatar looks really nice though. As for fluff reasons a 1500p army may not be a battle mayor enough to warrant an avatar. I am also pressed on points since I want to bring lots of aspect onto the table, and I think the Avengers need to have at least 2 units, also the "unmatched agility" bonus also seems too good to pass for most of the aspects, that's why the guardians host is there. I may still be convinced to drop it though, a CAD with 2x Avengers, then taking the aspects hosts as formations does not sound that bad. However if I want transports, they will eat up about the same points as the guardian host.
If you want me to I can make an mechanized or at least semi mechanized Biel-Tan list as an alternative.

Edit: Oh, and thank you for all your comments so far, please keep them comming

[Grizzlykin]

The new ulthwe draft really does look better to me so on my end it's a go (but oh damn so many psyker that make for 20 +1d6 warp charge /o/... \o\... \o/ ).

In the alaitoc list walker would make more sense fluff wise than serpent to me, but i think that's because i have an image of walker being something for alaitoc (don't ask me were i got that idea i don't remember). If you want to stick with a cad wich make sens when you think about it, i would make the following change: take out two unit of swooping hawk. Make an aspect formation with dire avengers x2 + dark reaper, and an other one with swooping + warp spyder + scorpion. Then had to your cad some ranger as troop choice fill in the point with war walker, you can keep a serpent for one of your avenger squad as they won't  have the move speed bonus from the war host, it might come in handy. Not sure if it would work, might need some tweeks left and right but i think it makes sens fluff wise.

As for the biel tan list, i hear you about the avatar that is something i can understand but his aura power got so much better i think it would be great to try it out. I don't  know about that mechanised list but why not. I pref the unmatched agility to the objective secured this days. That only personnal liking that did not get to be tested it out yet.

[Fenris]

@grizzlykin:
Ulthwé: Yeah it's 19 +1D6 I think, should be rivaling tzeentch summoning lists. I'll need to find some other toy warlocks for proxy, and/or buy a box of 2 farseers + 3 warlocks, and use them all as warlocks.

Alaitoc:
You are right about the walkers, and I may have gone a bit crazy with the 3 hawk units, I just miss the pathfinders I think. I've taken things into considerations and came up with this:

Alaitoc draft2:

CAD:
140 Illic Nightspear
120 10x Rangers
90 10x Guardians
+120 Wave serpent
-Shuriken cannon.
210 3x War walkers
-6x Bright lances.

Aspect Formation Melee:
210 10x Striking Scorpions
-Exarch, claw.
130 5x Warp Spiders
-Exarch, powerblades, TL-spinners.
95 5x Dire Avengers
-Exarch, Diresword & shuriken pistol.

Aspect Formation Ranged:
105 5x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch, sunrifle.
105 5x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch, sunrifle.
175 5x Dark Reapers
-Exarch, 5x starshot.

1500p

I would be fine using a single big hawk unit, but the formations requires me to take the aspect units 3 by 3.

Here is the semi-mech Biel-Tan:

CAD:
108 Autarch
-Powersword, Catapult, Wings, banshee mask.
75 5x Dire Avengers (goes in falcon)
-Exarch.
75 5x Dire Avengers (goes in falcon)
-Exarch.

Aspect Formation Melee:
85 5x Howling banshees
-Exarch, executioner.
193 9x Striking Scorpions
-Exarch, claw.
125 5x Warp Spiders
-Exarch, powerblades.

Aspect Formation Ranged:
120 5x Fire Dragons (goes in falcon)
-Exarch.
175 5x Dark Reapers
-Exarch, 5x starshot.
169 9x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch.

Falcon Cloudstrike:
130 Falcon
-Bright lance.
130 Falcon
-Bright lance.
130 Falcon
-Bright lance.

1500p

[Nythrulas]

I tried a 1000 point Ulthwe list with three formations:

Seer Council:2 seers, 5 locks, all with spears

Dire Avenger shrine: (Black Guardian Elites)
3x7 Avengers, +1 Exarch

Heroes' Path (Harlequins): Shadowseer is lvl 2 with mask

I've played two games with this list, one against necrons, and one against traditional mech eldar

Against necrons, doom and three squads of super avengers obliterated a warrior squad, while the Solitaire mopped up the other.  Death jester scared off the Immortals and the praetorians with overlord... while the seer council walked through wraiths and scarabs.  Dude was tabled by turn three... and I think I lost four avengers and a warlock.

Second game against eldar: Solitaire instakills a wraithlord, before bounding across the field to kill ANOTHER wraithlord... then jumping back to sweep a squad of dark reapers.  He's beautiful.  My Death jester had earned enough of a reputation at this point to warrant the attention of my opponents wave serpents, and died to S6 before getting to do anything.  Seer council flat shut down the opposing farseer, then spent the game being invincible, spearing tanks and generally being scary, while the Avengers woyld shoot up the creamy centers of the downed serpents.  Tabled by turn 3, j lost the Death Jester and two squads of avengers (dark reapers got a few shots off).

I'm very, very pleased.

[Grizzlykin]

@grizzlykin:
Ulthwé: Yeah it's 19 +1D6 I think,

+3 don't forget the formation bonus ^^ and yeah i mis calculated it's  19 not 20.


 

Alaitoc:

[...]

I would be fine using a single big hawk unit, but the formations requires me to take the aspect units 3 by 3.

Yeah nothing to say about this.
I Would try to get a bit more dire avengers in if possible but things are pretty nice as they are now. Maybe by cutting the serpent... don't know. I don't like serpent on guardian, that's stupid i know but foot dard with back up tank is my idea of eldar army, i would rather give the serpent to the scorpions, (maybe), or save the point for more punch else where. Totally not sure of that one.

Here is the semi-mech Biel-Tan:

CAD:
108 Autarch
-Powersword, Catapult, Wings, banshee mask.
75 5x Dire Avengers (goes in falcon)
-Exarch.
75 5x Dire Avengers (goes in falcon)
-Exarch.

Aspect Formation Melee:
85 5x Howling banshees
-Exarch, executioner.
193 9x Striking Scorpions
-Exarch, claw.
125 5x Warp Spiders
-Exarch, powerblades.

Aspect Formation Ranged:
120 5x Fire Dragons (goes in falcon)
-Exarch.
175 5x Dark Reapers
-Exarch, 5x starshot.
169 9x Swooping Hawks
-Exarch.

Falcon Cloudstrike:
130 Falcon
-Bright lance.
130 Falcon
-Bright lance.
130 Falcon
-Bright lance.

1500p

Man i love that, so nastyyyyy. Deep stricking your unit and taking them behind will make wonder^^ i think that's good that you have the autarch allow better roll for the deep stricking falcon that list have my go. More bodies in the avenger squads would have been nice i think, yet don't know where you could save points, and they would not fit in the falcon anymore.

[Fenris]

@Nythrulas: Yes, harlequins and eldar seer council is very a powerful combination. The new necrons are said to be powerful, I bet they are against AM and SM.
However the list you just played against them is probably one of the worst the necrons can face. No vehicles to gauss to death and no reanimation protocols when you get overrun in CC. If you want a more challenging game I suggest you try to play the same list against AM or Screamerstars with fleshhounds and heralds casting cursed earth on everything, or flying nids.

@Grizzlykin: The reason the guardians got the serpent is because the guardians are the weakest unit, and it provides the serpent objective secured. I think it will go down turn 1 anyway, since it's the only skimmer in the list.

About the Falcon cloudstrike, I think it would be wrong not to try to deep strike them at least once, I was thinking the dragons could open up a transport, and then have the Avengers battle focus around the wreck, to shoot any survivors, while the falcons clear the area around them. The avengers would also be able to cover for direct counter assaults against the dragons. I would have preferred having holofields on the falcons to protect them further from assaults, but I just couldn't find the points.

[Grizzlykin]

well the list seems fine as you sate it i did not tought much about the battle plan and now it make sens. Well i'm looking forward to see what you are going to do with those list, if you can get some game in, please tell us