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Offline Eadartri

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Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« on: February 18, 2015, 10:28:31 PM »
So what do you like or dislike about Storm Guardians, and is it enough to include or not include them in your army?

I like the hand to hand over shooting but have seen the power Rangers have. How do you run Storm Guardians or what do you prefer besides?
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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 03:20:37 AM »
I run them less often with this codex than the previous, just because bladestorm makes defenders that much more deadly an alternative.

They have their uses though, but only because of their special weapons:

1) only effective way we have of getting flamers on the board (other than the Wraithguard D-scythes, which have a different purpose). flamers are of course excellent for taking down units that rely on cover saves like rangers or ratlings.

2) Give them 2 fusions and a warlock with spear, and you have a cheap anti-tank unit that is also objective securing.

Both of the roles above though, can be handled by other mainstay Eldar units -pserpent shield for the ignores cover, and fire dragons / wraithguard / wraithknight / hornets / seer council can all do number against armour

Obviously they need a waveserpent, and they would generally be 3rd on my list of troop choices to put in a wavesperpent.
I only own 3 waveserpents, and since it's rare that an elite unit doesn't also need a ride, they don't get much use for me.
But it's not unknown for me to field 3 troops in my serpents, in which case I like the stormies for the variety / tactical flexibility -I don't like doubling up on units.

Other downside to them is they are not good enough in assault, and tend to suffer heavily from getting shot up the previous turn plus overwatch before they even get there. Playing them as an assault unit rather than a special weapons team seems to be a common mistake.
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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 06:56:29 AM »
I like them. Back in the day when you could select destructor for the warlock the triple flamer threat was nasty. But despite that unreliability of getting destructor I still like them. Bladestorm on the pistols, plus 2 flamers + a warlock for psychic support makes them pretty good for assisting another unit in clearing off isolated enemy infantry units on top of objectives. I think they'd be great coming out of a Dark Eldar raider, but if you don't have DE allies I'd pop them out of your Wave Serpent along side  Dire Avengers, shoot their pistols/flamers battle focus out of LOS, into cover (with conceal from the warlock) or at least out of charge range then move back out the next turn and assault perhaps with assistance from the Avengers.

Not a game changing unit but two rounds of shooting from the pistols and flamers then charging they should be able to take out a squad of Marines, Guardsmen heck even other Eldar infantry units. They are hampered like every Eldar assault unit by the mechanics of disembarkation but if you practice setting up that turn-after assault they should be a good little utility unit. A Raider is perfect for them however as the raider is cheap like the unit and a squad of storm guardians should go relativley unnoticed.

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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 12:40:48 PM »
I like them, but I tend not to use them these days.  I don't usually think of them as a melee unit even though they're packing pistols.  The reason I take them (when I do) is their special weapons. As previously stated, a double-flamer or double fusion + spearlock loadout is a great way to ignore cover or bust tanks respectively.  Now that said, if you really want to use them for melee, the runes of battle table is full of options that help with that.  Some powers let you soften up the enemy so that the lacklustre power of the stormies has more effect. Others toughen the stormies up so that they can tarpit a bit.  Sticking them in a raider just seems ridiculously squishy to me though, and I'd much rather use that raider to carry one of our elites. 

Avengers are tougher and tarpit better with the right exarch loadout. Rangers are cheaper. I don't use jetbikes, but they're faster and arguably harder to kill.  defenders can sit back on an objective or deliver way more fire power the turn they pop out of a transport. So unless I really like storm guardians for fluff reasons or really want to do the fusion gun + singing spear combo, I usually don't field them these days.

Offline davethemadorc

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 04:30:20 PM »
rapidly coming around to the opinion that with the advent of 7th and the new codexes for orcz / tau / necrons and de - that eldar T3 troops are a real liability -
working on getting gjb numbers right - think 6 is too many and 3 not enough ! - going to run 5 squads of 4 next game !

still think a 'boosted' unit of storm guardians has a use - but 6 fire dragons is cheaper and they have 3+ armour !

Offline Eadartri

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 07:52:04 PM »
Two things: Yes, I always had great success with Fire Dragons, and the fusion gun option looks good for Storm Guardians. Also, I like the 3x20 with Avatar idea. Seems like dynamite to me. Sounds like a lot of great styles.

Am I wrong or did they use to be an Ulthwe option only? Either way, they seem to be the troop type of choice. (I have run Defenders, Rangers and Avengers). But I guess it depends on one's play style to a degree and other force organization slot choices. Thanks.

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Offline Fenris

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 10:35:12 AM »
I think the stormies are on the edge of being shelved. This is due to CC is not in favor in 7th ed rules, and overwatch hurts them really bad, especially with bolters punching through their mesh armour.
This means they are neither good on foot (unless they have extensive character support) and embarked in a vehicle that do not allow them assault from they are even more out of favor.
Sure they have some nice special weapons, however taking either the fusion guns or the powerswords makes them overpriced aspect warrior wannabe's, so it's basically only worthwhile to take flamers.
The battle focus is also a less useful ability for them, since if you are within shuriken pistol -range or worse flamer-range, you really can't run away out of countercharge range anyway.

They have some good uses though, against things like assault terminators, and MC, they still can fill a role by tarpitting these in CC.
They are not much more expensive than the DAVU when put in a serpent, and has more bodies if left on an objective,and they can also harbor a warlock which did not get the power you wanted in a seer council. However these things are just as true with the defender guardians.

Maybe something good can be done with large stormie units with the new shadowseers, within an Avatar's fearless bubble.


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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 12:16:30 PM »
I find the "overwatch kills them" argument to be odd, honestly. Unless you're tangling with Tau or lots of flamers, the losses from overwatch should be fairly mild. A whole tactical squad firing overwatch still only kills about 2 Storm Guardians on average, and that's assuming everybody's alive and still has a bolter (not that storm guardians would assault a full tactical squad well--just putting it up there for numbers).

I play an assault-exclusive Khornate force (no shooting support really to speak of) and overwatch has denied me an assault *maybe* twice, all time. I lose 3-4 bloodletters to it per game, on average.

I just don't think the "overwatch" angle matters for much except against very specific targets (i.e. Tau). 

Offline davethemadorc

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2015, 07:25:41 AM »
i used to run [occasionally] multiple storm guardian units back in the day - that was when they were truly overpointed at bs3 - but the ability to get 4+ cover saves  or maybe better and to make them 'fearless' meant they had some utility.

they are still 'fun' or 'fluffy'  but at well over the price of six fire-dragons cannot compare for overall 'comfort' - they will die in droves to Necrons / Tau / DE while if you are 'lucky' the dragons 3+ armour might keep a few alive a turn longer.

if you need to pack out serpents with cheap infantry - imo the minimum DA squad is just as good

Offline Fenris

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2015, 10:29:37 AM »
@Wyddr: 2.22 kills on average, that usually are the 2 flamers, problem is these are wounds taken in your turn, when you should be delivering wounds, not receiving them.

rant:
[Spoiler]
However on the charge the stormies should be at their best since they are supposed to be a CC unit, in a unit of 10 stormies there will only be 8 left that can produce 1.33 wounds on the charge.

Even against a combat squad this would be bad, and I haven't even taken the return attacks of the marines into account, 9 marines statistically kill 2 guardians.

Of course the stormies should be shooting on their way into CC, with 2 flamers hitting 3 models each that's another 1.5 wounds(including pistols and their pseudo-rending).

Against 10 marines the result would be 1.5 marines killed from 9 marines shooting,and 2 guardians killed from overwatch, then 1.33 more marines killed in CC and 7 marines strikes back for 1.5 more dead guardians.
To sum that up that's 3 dead marines and 3.5 dead guardians at optimal conditions for the guardians, during the eldar player's turn.


Against a combat squad it's still 1.5 wounds from shooting so only 4 marines overwatching, that kills 0.89 guardians. In CC the guardians will kill basically the same 1.44 kills, so 2 marines swinging back for 0.44 wounds.

Sure the guardians wins by 3-1 in their turn, but with just a little deviation from the statistics the marines still will prevail in the end despite optimal conditions for the stormies.

A couple of pot shots from outside rapid fire range could the turn before could easily tilt this in the marines favor.

The argument "but the stormies will be in a serpent the turn before" well how then are they able to assault at all?
[/Spoiler]
end of rant.

The use of stormies is of course to go after your opponents specialized units, such as assault terminators or scouts. Against most troop choices stormies will suffer, IG, marines of all flavours, tau, DE, they will even struggle against orks, crons and nids.

The stormies will even be outnumbered point for point by everything except marines and crons.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 10:31:42 AM by Fenris »
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2015, 12:44:53 PM »
So, by your own numbers, overwatch *occasionally* makes a difference *if* you roll a statistically unusual number of hits.

So using it as a primary argument against taking Stormies seems a bit odd, as I said. And even then, this is working on the assumption that you are tasking a team of storm guardians to take on ten marines all by their lonesome, which is a rather stupid thing to do in the first place. Eldar need to work in conjunction, so assuming a Storm Guardian charge without support seems silly--the fact that they probably stick in combat is significant in and of itself. The scenario I presented was just to point out how *little* overwatch really matters--something your own calculations bear out.

Now, as for "how to deliver them," that certainly is a problem. Of course, it's a problem for all Eldar assault units and it also is a soluble problem if you build a list around diverting firepower away from the assault units (wholly doable, if tricky). In a list like this, Storm Guardians actually have a pretty solid niche, in that they are much less obviously dangerous than Scorpions or Harlies, but they are reasonably effective enough to threaten weakened units (which is the kind of enemies they should be facing by the time they reach them).

Toss in some modest combat support (a Warlock, perhaps) and they can do a pretty decent job in a number of situations. Overwatch will rarely matter. 

Offline Fenris

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM »
No, stormies will loose more models than they kill when they charge into a full unit of marines, this makes stormies loose against a full unit of marines no matter what they do, a warlock does not make much difference other than allowing them to cost the same.
10 stormies + warlock 135p
10 marines 140p

Aginst a combat squad, with optimal conditions for the stormies, they will win, but just barely, a small deviation from statistics will make the stormies still loose against a 5 man combat squad.

"In a list like this, Storm Guardians actually have a pretty solid niche, in that they are much less obviously dangerous than Scorpions or Harlies, but they are reasonably effective enough to threaten weakened units"

This is just an, my big brother is stronger than your big brother, argument, and simply does not work in an enviroment of equall points armies.
It's pure psychicological manufactoring, it's on the level where kids say "my toy soldier is better than yours" because it is bigger.

Local superiority does not work either on a general basis, since the stormies are no faster than the marines, well if they where only to shoot they could have a small advantage in movement due to battle focus, but then you are better of using normal guardians as you are not using their ccw.

2x10 marines and 5 terminators wins over
2x10 stormies + warlocks + 10 scorpions
9/10 times if each army if run properly and statistically.

Even if 1 unit of stormies and the scorpions takes care och one of the marine units, your second unit of guardians will be slaghtered by the other two units that by this very definition will be pitted against eachother.

Therefore stormies are inferior to marines in most cases, mainly because stormies can't use all of their abilities simultaneously, without paying an overprice for power weapons.



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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2015, 07:23:58 AM »
Fenris I don't think any veteran Eldar player would assault a 10 man tac squad with Storm Guardians. Like everyone was saying previously Stormies are great for sweeping small squads of Marines (5 or less) off of objectives, or for going after lone unsupported squads of Guardsmen, Termagants, Fire Warriors etc. (10 or less) off objectives late in-game. Flamers, pistols and charge should do the trick. Not an auto-win unit but a good cheap, versatile unit that can help out in a pinch in the waning phases of the game.
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Offline davethemadorc

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2015, 06:56:34 PM »
the problem with almost all foot guardians isnt their points drop, or their bs increase, its the fact that you cant predict which warlock powers they get or even if they will work !

at high point games [above maybe 2/2.5k] i think they have utility

below 2k they have to be selected for 'fluff' because dragons are better for fire-power and anti-tank and warlocks or scorpz are better for combat  [or even half a dozen shining spears]

its a shame really because they have bladestorm and battle focus ... but if you want guardians just put them on bikes !

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2015, 08:49:19 PM »
the problem with almost all foot guardians isnt their points drop, or their bs increase, its the fact that you cant predict which warlock powers they get or even if they will work !

at high point games [above maybe 2/2.5k] i think they have utility

below 2k they have to be selected for 'fluff' because dragons are better for fire-power and anti-tank and warlocks or scorpz are better for combat  [or even half a dozen shining spears]

its a shame really because they have bladestorm and battle focus ... but if you want guardians just put them on bikes !

I don't really have a problem with guardian defenders.  If you want 10 shuriken catapults, guardians provide them more cheaply than avengers and with basically equivalent effectiveness if you're coming out of a transport.  The big gun can help you star cannon terminators to death or pop open vehicles at a distance. With a warlock, you can give them shrouded pretty reliably.  To me, defenders became pretty snazzy in the latest book even if I would like to see them go a more wargear-heavy direction.  Storm guardians are different in that they don't hit hard enough to be a melee unit, and they don't have the range to sit in the back.  To me, they're less shooty defenders that can take a couple quite nice special guns.

If we had an assault transport (that didn't require allies to take), their number of melee attacks combined with warlock powers and shooting might help them out.  As is, they're basicaly ~100 points for a couple of flamers or meltas.  Which really isn't terribly. It's just that we can probably get more for less from other units.

Offline davethemadorc

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2015, 07:21:12 AM »
guardian defender blobs have their own issues:
they need an avatar if you are running more than one;
they pay a huge points tax to 'just' get two long range weapons - although the number of bodies can be useful
[just as example point for point they get horrendously outshot by tau !]

dont get me wrong - ive run blob armies with an aviator and some boosts - they can be 'fun' 'fluffy' and effective . but in the high ST / high T meta - with flyers and FMC they arent a reliable core unit

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2015, 09:02:20 AM »
The main thing to remember about Storm Guardians is that they are primarily a delivery system for the specialist weapons.  Their assault role is secondary to that, and should only be employed when mopping up remnants of squads, or weak opposition.  This is why going toe-to-toe with a full squad of Marines isn't recommended, and is also, therefore, not the best example to highlight their strengths or weaknesses.

The main thing is to get them into a position where their Flamers or Fusion Guns can have a decisive impact.  For example, if their Fusion Guns manage to open up that transport, so that the infantry inside can be targeted by your anti-infantry weapons, then the Storm Guardians will have done their job.  Similarly, if their Flamers burn through a mob of Orks or Guardsmen holding a crucial objective, then they will also have done their job.  Keeping the specialist weapon Storm Guardians alive is, therefore, the most important thing in my view.
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2015, 05:06:58 PM »
So, then what would the ideal loadout for the Stormies be?  Do you specialised them (dual fusion/flamer), or do you take advantage of the fact that they are Eldar who don't HAVE to specialise and take one of each?

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2015, 10:27:37 PM »
So, then what would the ideal loadout for the Stormies be?  Do you specialised them (dual fusion/flamer), or do you take advantage of the fact that they are Eldar who don't HAVE to specialise and take one of each?

Back in 5th, I usually specialized, but I could go versatile (destructor warlock with singing spear, flamer, and fusion gun) if I really wanted to.  These days, the lack of reliable powers on warlocks means that I feel compelled to go one way or the other.  When I take stormies, I usually go dedicated anti-tank because I can guarantee a warlock with a singing spear will be in the squad.  I suspect double-flamers would work, but I have other ways of getting ignores cover and anti-infantry guns.

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Re: Storm Guardians: Likes and Dislikes
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 04:15:57 AM »
Hi all.

For me Stormies have become a special terrain unit. I use them on boards which are heavy on woods or represent a village etc.
They are a very nice (and fluffy) mop up and support unit for my cc components. Does it work well? Ehm, depending on my rolls it does or not.

As to load-out I go for versatility most of the time. If points are available I even add swords.
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