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Author Topic: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.  (Read 15410 times)

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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #40 on: April 1, 2010, 06:58:32 AM »
So yes I was using a little hyperbole there (well, more than little), and it is true that Matt Ward never literally says what I did in that post, but it is stated that they want to be like Ultramarines, and of course they never can, for their geneseed ... well you know. So the implication, a very strong implication IMO, is that they are somewhat crestfallen about their lack of Ultramarinehood.

I'd say it's more of a leap to suggest that they don't mind not being Ultramarines, based on what Ward has given us.

But I wouldn't say I'm angry about it, honestly and truly, I realize I can ignore it if I wish. The thing is just that I'd rather enjoy and embrace fluff than have to ignore it.

I wouldn't say it's implied at all, I think you're inferring quite a lot from very little in the text. I don't imagine Space Marines ever gettin "crestfallen" about things like that, and the background certainly doesn't say anything along those lines. Get annoyed with the background for what it says, not what you think it's suggesting.
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Offline Alpha Class Faye

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #41 on: April 1, 2010, 08:17:01 AM »
The problem comes from Matt Ward's patriotism and loyalty to the Ultramarines smashing against fellow lovers of their own customer chapters. Had he have put something like "Most chapters are envious of the countless battle honours the Ultramarines have won" then yeah, I can see the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and maybe the emo Dark Angels looking at it and going "Awesome kill streak, bro"

Alas no, he's leaning over your shoulder and writing the history for your own customer chapters now. The daemon army book is a joke, we all know, and a friend jokingly but accurately called it the Uwe Boll movie of army books.

I'm reminded of the tactic the Alpha Legion use to yell "For the Emperor!" to deceive their foes sometimes.

Maybe they just secretly want to be Ultramarines, because their primarch (sorry, one of their primarchs) was killed by Gulliman.

New war cries include "We wish we were Ultramarines" "We're almost the right shade of blue" and "I am so sorry for my portrayal in Dawn of War Soulstorm. Wouldn't it be nice if these Blood Ravens were Ultramarines?"

Don't get me wrong though - I love the Ultramarines. I love their novels, their colours, their Roman themes, the fact they give every new hive fleet a migrane. I just wish Matt Ward would stop coming into my house, taking a dump, and then not flushing whilst I'm out shopping and stuff.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #42 on: April 1, 2010, 09:08:43 AM »
Alas no, he's leaning over your shoulder and writing the history for your own customer chapters now. The daemon army book is a joke, we all know, and a friend jokingly but accurately called it the Uwe Boll movie of army books.

You've just made that up, he isn't doing anything even close to that
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Offline Alpha Class Faye

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #43 on: April 1, 2010, 09:28:47 AM »
That is how it comes across to me Chuckles. That is how it feels to me. Quite intrusive.

EDIT - Though alternatively I suppose one could design their chapter to look at the ultramarines nonchalantly, or with scorn and distaste rather than reverance.
« Last Edit: April 1, 2010, 09:30:29 AM by Alpha Class Faye »
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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #44 on: April 1, 2010, 10:26:11 AM »
I also thought it was stupid how they altered the way marines move though the ranks, making 'tactical marine' the top of the tree is retarded when they're the basic unit and ought to be at the bottom allowing members to be identifed for their skills with assault or heavy weapons and then be selected for a specialist unit.

But no, as soon as a marine gets really good with a jump pack they promote him out of the assault squad and into devestators, and no-sooner than he learns to be a scuptor with a lascannon is it taken away from him and given a boltgun. Genius. Not.
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Offline Aluinn

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #45 on: April 1, 2010, 03:05:26 PM »
I wouldn't say it's implied at all, I think you're inferring quite a lot from very little in the text. I don't imagine Space Marines ever gettin "crestfallen" about things like that, and the background certainly doesn't say anything along those lines. Get annoyed with the background for what it says, not what you think it's suggesting.

I can't imagine them doing so either, so that's where it becomes problematical for me. As far as me being wrong about what it seems to say, anyone's reading is an interpretation. It's not as though I'm the only one inferring meaning. Here is my train of thought on the matter:

Premise 1: Most Marines wish that they could be Ultramarines.

Premise 2: They can never be Ultramarines.

Premise 3: Wanting to be something that one knows one never can usually if not inevitably leads to frustration.

Conclusion: Therefore, non-Ultra- Marines are to some extent likely to be emotionally distraught about not being Ultramarines. (Marines may be stoic but they still essentially experience normal human emotional reactions to everything but the horrors of war, as far as I can tell from the fiction.)

Now I fully understand and accept that this may be different from the way you interpreted it, and I do not think my interpretation is somehow superior. However, I also dare say it isn't outlandish or crazy, and many other readers have independently come to the same conclusion, as demonstrated by this thread. Dismissing that as "deciding to get pissed" is a bit disrespectful, honestly. Not all of us are mad about it, we just don't like it, and anyway nerds have some prerogative to nerdrage every once in a while right? :)

You've just made that up, he isn't doing anything even close to that

I think Faye was saying that when he makes claims about how all non-Ultramarine Codex chapters feel about Ultramarines, it does kind of feel like he's telling you how your homemade Codex chapter is supposed to see them. If he had just listed the views of the specific chapters, i.e. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, etc. that would be one thing, but he painted with a bit broader a brush than that. From Matt Ward's writing it seems that if you made a chapter who didn't much care for the Ultras you'd be violating canon. Personally I don't mind violating canon, but I'd also rather not, all else being equal.

And yet there are many reasons that other chapters might not care for the Ultras, including the fact that their mini-empire and massive leadership role are slightly hypocritical given that the purpose of the Codex Astartes was to limit the power of the Marines, along with potential suspicion about them being absent during the Siege of Terra. (I know they had a decent excuse, but not everyone in-universe knows or believes that certainly.)

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #46 on: April 5, 2010, 06:57:02 PM »
Heres a marvellous peice of background fluff from the BA codex;

The Gehenna Campaign, p16
Dante and the 3rd battled the Necrons following the Silent King. The stalemate was broken when a Tyranid Hive Fleet entered orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common enemy. Following the final battle, Dante and the Silent King go their seperate ways, both forces now too battle worn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least in the Blood Angles case, the idea of turning on one time allies was rather distasteful.

 
Necrons? Allying with the marines? I imagine it was high fives and double teaming and everything.... if you didn't think fluff could get more ridiclous in Matt Ward's hands hes now adding a human side to the all hating relentless battlerobots of death. Great. I hope he writes their codex next just so I can see exactly how friendly and pals they want to be with everyone.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #47 on: April 5, 2010, 06:59:50 PM »
That could be an inkling towards the a potential future direction of the Necrons where higher lords have actual personalty compared to lower ones. Not that I'm defending that tripe.  :)
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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #48 on: April 5, 2010, 08:24:52 PM »
Heres a marvellous peice of background fluff from the BA codex;

The Gehenna Campaign, p16
Dante and the 3rd battled the Necrons following the Silent King. The stalemate was broken when a Tyranid Hive Fleet entered orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common enemy. Following the final battle, Dante and the Silent King go their seperate ways, both forces now too battle worn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least in the Blood Angles case, the idea of turning on one time allies was rather distasteful.

 
Necrons? Allying with the marines? I imagine it was high fives and double teaming and everything.... if you didn't think fluff could get more ridiclous in Matt Ward's hands hes now adding a human side to the all hating relentless battlerobots of death. Great. I hope he writes their codex next just so I can see exactly how friendly and pals they want to be with everyone.

Necrons temporarily allying with Marines to fight Tyranids doesn't seem that far-fetched to me - you simply stop pointing your gun at the shiny metal things and point it at the venom-dripping green things.  However, the part at the end is ridiculous - xenos are not "one-time allies".  Xenos are not allies.  The  fate of all xenos is death, and the angels of death are the Emperor's Space Marines.

A more reasonable story: after the Tyranids had been exterminated, the Blood Angels once again turned their guns on the murderous xenos, intending to purge the universe of their vileness.  The Necrons, however, simply faded away, denying Dante his final victory.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #49 on: April 5, 2010, 08:31:54 PM »
What makes me confused is that the Blood Angels didn't want to attack the Necrons after the fight was over.  The Imperium allies with xenos often enough, but the impression I always get is that the two allies will turn on each other the moment the common threat is gone.  The Imperium does occasionally let their one time allies go, if only because of battle fatigue.  I do like to see the Imperium applying common sense, but this is...strange, to say the least.

I recall the Ultramarines letting some Tau go after they had fought together, but I was under the impression that the Ultras let them go because they wanted to nuke the planet the Tau were on, which was full of Necrons, I think.  Allowing the Tau to leave unmolested meant the Ultra fleet could get on nuking the way larger threat without interference. 

The Imperium also lets the Eldar go a lot, but that may be because the Eldar are so good at shouting "Ninja Vanish!" and disappearing.  I also seem to recall the Tallarans making an alliance with the Eldar after a major war was fought on Tallarn.  Some sort of Chaos Portal opened and the Eldar came to help.  The two sides fought together and a pact was made to mutually defend the portal should it ever open again.

The thing is, though, Eldar, Tau, and I suppose the minor races mentioned in the new Bug Dex are all reasonable races.  Necrons have a history of not being reasonable at all.

Quote
I hope he writes their codex next just so I can see exactly how friendly   and pals they want to be with everyone.

Amusingly, the Tau tried to shower the Necrons with flowers and promptly got wiped out.  Maybe the trick to getting along with the Necrons is to beat them up and then they like you. 

Quote from: Rummy Bear link=topic=198933.msg2442680#msg2442680   date=1270508390
  That could be an inkling towards the a potential future direction of the   Necrons where higher lords have actual personalty compared to lower   ones. Not that I'm defending that tripe.  :)
 

I would not be surprised on your assessment being correct.  A lot of the more recent background puts the spotlight on Necron Lords, away from the C'tan.  C'tan are not even in the BRB.  We even have Necron Lords talking in expansion books now.  I'm not sure if giving the Lords personalities is good nor bad.  The Nercons need some personality now, though, I feel.  Others, of course, may feel otherwise, but Necrons as they are now are rather dull.
« Last Edit: April 5, 2010, 09:50:30 PM by Gornon »
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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #50 on: April 5, 2010, 10:58:39 PM »
The trick is having the personality being shown to be a BAD thing as that means you're more important to them than you thought. Silent creatures that stalk you without relent that suddenly offer comment? Good horror material.

In the example given, I'd hope that the Necrons would have phased out very shortly afterward with a "till we meet again" message rather than everyone has a cuddle with the tea and medals. In which book did they speak as I'm behind in my reading. If the answer includes Dawn of War anywhere I'd rather stay behind though.  ;)
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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #51 on: April 6, 2010, 12:45:25 AM »
"And in their waning years, Dante and The Silent King drank Cherri and reminisced about their trivial misunderstandings over the occasional game of Chess..." ugh. What's next? The Space Wolves become hippi pacifists who retreat to a commune?
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Offline Aluinn

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #52 on: April 6, 2010, 02:21:26 AM »
The horrible part of it is that the Blood Angels found "the idea of turning on one-time allies [to be] rather distasteful". Marines and Necrons both fighting 'Nids simultaneously is fine. The Blood Angels not pursuing the Necrons because they were beat up and probably couldn't catch them anyway would be fine. But the BA actually developing respect for murderous hate machines is a problem.

Unless the BA have no clue whatsoever about what the Necrons are or what they are wont to do to humans (including but not limited to flaying them alive and wearing the skin), I wouldn't think any moral concerns would hold them back from destroying Necrons, ever. As far as the ignorance angle goes, BA ought to know as much as any other Marines as far as I can tell, so that leaves ... bad writing.

Note this is coming from a Necron player. If I was completely biased by my armies of choice I might find this bit of fluff slightly flattering, but come on, the Necrons don't really have any redeeming qualities in the ethics department. All they have is a victimization complex from a damn long time ago, which, while it is plenty of justification for them, I doubt any living creature would ever be sympathetic to. As a further barrier, there are very, very few humans who even know anything about the pre-Necron Necrontyr.
« Last Edit: April 6, 2010, 02:26:57 AM by Aluinn »

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #53 on: April 6, 2010, 02:24:08 AM »
"And in their waning years, Dante and The Silent King drank Cherri and reminisced about their trivial misunderstandings over the occasional game of Chess..." ugh. What's next? The Space Wolves become hippi pacifists who retreat to a commune?

I chuckled I can also see this:
"Tired of fighting Dante and The Silent King discovered instead of fighting endless battles they found Warhammer 80,000, A miniatures war game." 
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Offline Alpha Class Faye

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #54 on: April 6, 2010, 05:53:28 AM »
Rule 34 on Dante and Silent King!

No, I jest, but yeah, it was pretty terrible, and I really hate Matt Ward's new Blood Angel codex. Mainly for the Mask of Sanguinius on Dante, that puts a "curse" on one of your HQ units. What kind of a curse hits your stats like that? Did he leave bread crumbs for the Swarmlord to accidentally wander into The Grudge's house? Sure Sarah Michelle Gellar's biomatter was fine, but then some pasty naked japanese kid takes a wound off of him? Pffft.....I compare this 'curse' to something like me breaking into my opponent's house 2 years before a game, putting bleach in his food on a daily occurance, and when we finally have our game, his brain is too damaged to think tactically. Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, a master of change, fate, and magic being cursed by a shiny mask?

/rant permenantly
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Offline Aluinn

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #55 on: April 6, 2010, 06:29:10 AM »
I compare this 'curse' to something like me breaking into my opponent's house 2 years before a game, putting bleach in his food on a daily occurance, and when we finally have our game, his brain is too damaged to think tactically.

Ah, remind me to never schedule a game against you.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #56 on: April 6, 2010, 07:55:20 PM »
Quote
The trick is having the personality being shown to be a BAD thing as   that means you're more important to them than you thought. Silent   creatures that stalk you without relent that suddenly offer comment?   Good horror material.

I agree.

Quote
In the example given, I'd hope that the Necrons would have phased   out very shortly afterward with a "till we meet again" message rather   than everyone has a cuddle with the tea and medals. In which book did   they speak as I'm behind in my reading. If the answer includes Dawn   of War anywhere I'd rather stay behind though.  (Image removed from quote.)

From Apoc: Reload:

"We are not creatures of flesh and emotion, but of circuit and reason.  We are the machine, and the machine will not be denied." -Necron Lord, designation 'Herald of Dismay', Damnos Incident.

Just two sentences, I know, but it is a Necron Lord talking.

Quote
Did he leave bread crumbs for the Swarmlord to accidentally wander into   The Grudge's house?

Good news.  The Mask only effects Indy Characters, so the Swarmlord (and other nid Monsters) and Greater Daemons of T (along with other GDs), along with, oddly enough, Imperial Guard Captains, are immune to its effects.
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Offline Scarr, the horned rat

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #57 on: April 6, 2010, 08:27:09 PM »
the next thing is surely going to be eldar joining dark eldar in battle against orks and space marines on the other side. what fluffy world we live in...
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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #58 on: April 6, 2010, 08:30:29 PM »
the next thing is surely going to be eldar joining dark eldar in battle against orks and space marines on the other side. what fluffy world we live in...

and the squats and the orks grew old by the fire together. whilst worshipping robutile gulliman (or however it's actually spelt
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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #59 on: April 6, 2010, 09:16:32 PM »
Good news.  The Mask only effects Indy Characters, so the Swarmlord (and other nid Monsters) and Greater Daemons of T (along with other GDs), along with, oddly enough, Imperial Guard Captains, are immune to its effects.

Yep IG commanders can laugh it off, but Abbadon the despoiler, mightest hero of chaos and blessed of the gods, genuinely 10,000 years old, surrounded by protective wards, retinues, and almost always tucked up safely on one of the most awesome starships ever ply the void apparently takes it. He takes it like a be-atch...

Yes, consistency. There is clearly no explaination as to why this item should justifably work the way it does. Its just a piss poor bit of writing on all accounts.
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