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Offline Farseer Jenkins

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mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« on: May 31, 2009, 10:10:06 PM »
Seer Council  w/ Eldarad  10 Warlocks
3 Warlocks normal as equipted
5 Warlocks w/destructor
1 Warlock w/enhance
1 Warlock w/embolden
Wave Serpent w/Brightlance Spirit Stones Vector Eng.
Total points:

Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Total points:

Fire Dragons 9 w/Exarch dragon Breath flamer
Wave Serpent w/Brightlance Spirit Stones Vector Eng.
Total pts:

Falcon w/Sh. Cannon Spirit Stones Vector Eng. Holofield
Total points:

Dire Avengers 5
Total points:

Storm Guardians 10 2 w/flamer
Wave Serpent w/Brightlance Spirit Stones Vector Eng.
Total points:

Storm Guardians 10 2 w/flamer
Wave Serpent w/Missle Launcher Spirit Stones Vector Eng.
Total points:

Total Points: 1990

Took second place in a RTT with this list in march. Please rate this list.

Offline enlg

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 10:41:37 PM »
there are 5 avengers who seem to do nothing at all. troops are very weak, seer council does not carry enough CC ability to be competitive imo. storms are not good objective takers.

not a huge fan, also so many twin-lances are too expensive

Offline Sydonia

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2009, 11:14:05 PM »
I actually really like this list.  I know the troops appear to be weak but the serpents make up for it.  I feel like taking Starcannons instead of the EML or maybe even the BL (on the troop serpents) could be a better option for more anti-infantry which I feel is the weakest point of the list.  Sure the Seer Council and Fire Prisms could handle it, but the Anti-Tank seems well covered.  Having the Two Prisms makes for a wonderful swap between anti-tank and anti-infantry...depending on the situation.  I just would like to see another assault unit like Banshees in the mix.  Again though I really like the list, but it's a lot like the lists I take so I'm a little biased...rock on man.

Edit: I may swap out the Falcon for another good CC unit.  Harlies could be fun.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 11:15:47 PM by Sydonia »

Offline bloodflow

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2009, 11:26:19 PM »
I think you have way too many warlocks with Eldrad.  Dire Avengers should be fielded in groups of 10 with exarch and exarch powers.  Lose the falcon.  Falcons are overpriced, you could spend the points on a close combat unit which you will need.  You really should have some banshees, to soften up units that have decent armor/inv saves.  Eldrad and the warlocks, lack the punch to do that.  I think you really dont need to run vectored engines on the wave serpents, but I guess it is how you play them.  They are pretty resilient on their own right, plus when you move flat out you can benefit from the cover save.  I am a big fan of star engines.  Split up the bright lances, throw in EML, Scatter lasers, or star cannon.  You need some type of anti-infantry.  Good luck! :)
However, in Wonder Woman # 34, written by Gail Simone, Dinah Lance, the Black Canary, mentions Power Girl as the top bosom of DCU, comparing her assets with a "national treasure"

Very nice indeed.

Offline Satanic Joker Jester

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2009, 11:57:48 PM »
@ Enlarging cloud... that seer council isn't competitive?  Are you kidding me?  That squad, though extremely costly, is a monster and can take on..well basically anything,

hmm i like the list a lot,  I'd say give a spear or two to the seer council though, just for those times when you'd rather not assault a tank ( risk being in an explosion and possibly taking wounds )   

Its a full mech list...why would he field avengers on foot?  they would stick out and not be nearly as effective.  The 5 man squad is simply to capture objectives, nothing more.  As for anti infantry, he's well covered, between the seer council, and flamer guardian squads, by playing smart and with good positioniong/timing, he can devastate horde armies,

Also, the vectored engines on the Falcon...Doesn't seem all that important.. Spirit stones on the prisms might be nice instead of that?  Just so if you should happen to not be able to move, you could reposition or move 24 to get that cover save in the following turn,  i think that may help you out and increase the durability..but in most cases the prisms will get destroyed if fired at so,  up to you.

A strong list,  Definitely like it.  If you were to drop vectored engines, possibly a few dragons, you could maybe squeeze in an autarch with fusion gun, he can go with the fire dragons and help out with your reserve rolls, that would be beneficial

*edit, if you dont like that idea, finding points to include Destructor warlocks with singing spears ( spears not needed though really ) to go with the flamer guardians, that would really help out they're damage potential and horde control, not to mention destructor can hurt rhinos etc as well, and most walkers ( back armor etc )
« Last Edit: June 1, 2009, 12:00:09 AM by Satanic Joker Jester »
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Offline bloodflow

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #5 on: June 1, 2009, 11:38:12 AM »
I never said it was not competitive!  :P It is a very uber unit coupled with doom, enhance can do some serious damage.  They can hunt all types of armor, etc.  Eldrad is best use to cast his psychic powers and bring some balance o the Eldar army.  If he is constantly tied up in assaults, he will be seriously less effective.  Also, if they happen to come across Termies, they may hit and wound easily, but that 2+ armor save, is really going to keep them in the fight.  Fortune helps, but I believe Banshees would be great for this role.  The fact that he took 2nd at a RTT is fantastic!  Great Job!  Also an Autarch with a fusion gun would be very beneficial, give him some wings, so he can leave the fire dragons and shoot other armor.  Good luck and good list! :D
However, in Wonder Woman # 34, written by Gail Simone, Dinah Lance, the Black Canary, mentions Power Girl as the top bosom of DCU, comparing her assets with a "national treasure"

Very nice indeed.

Offline Farseer Jenkins

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #6 on: June 1, 2009, 11:48:23 AM »
The Dire avengers are to go into the falcon for a durable scoring unit late game, (with them in it the falcon basicly becomes scoring.

Offline bloodflow

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #7 on: June 1, 2009, 11:59:13 AM »
Wouldnt a warlock and guardians in a wave serpent be a tad better?  5 dire avengers without an exarch really doesnt provide much of anything.  Since I havent played a list quite like yours, falcons never do it for me.  Anyway, good job, it is a very nice mech list.
However, in Wonder Woman # 34, written by Gail Simone, Dinah Lance, the Black Canary, mentions Power Girl as the top bosom of DCU, comparing her assets with a "national treasure"

Very nice indeed.

Offline Satanic Joker Jester

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #8 on: June 1, 2009, 12:05:22 PM »
even if tied up in an assault, Eldrad can still fortune + mind war,

Well, even vs termies, who have either a 5+ invul or 3+ invul ( if they are assault termies ) I would still prefer the seer council for the sheer amount of armor saves you will be forcing,
another day, just breathe.

Looking for a new army project...
Eldar         Necrons
6-0-1       4-1-1

Possible, that it could all be wonderful~
Sweet the sound, as all the stars come crashing down~

Offline bloodflow

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #9 on: June 1, 2009, 12:16:37 PM »
Unfortunately, mind war is done in the shooting phase, instead of firing a weapon, so thats out if he is locked up.  Fortune, yes, which will be needed.  I am just saying he could have a more balanced army with less warlocks and the points spread elsewhere.  He could cut 5 warlocks and throw Yriel in there for some real fun!   ;D  Just sayin'  Vectored engines are just not needed.
However, in Wonder Woman # 34, written by Gail Simone, Dinah Lance, the Black Canary, mentions Power Girl as the top bosom of DCU, comparing her assets with a "national treasure"

Very nice indeed.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #10 on: June 2, 2009, 07:40:19 AM »
I made some corrections to the format, this is kinda the general standard we expect of lists for asked for Rating. Some kind of introduction, background and general tactics are also generally required, you may want to take a look at the Big List thread to see what is the standards we ask before Rating.

Now that being said, this is an Ulthwé list (incidentally my second Eldar army of choice) and I would leave the list to Gutstikk to Rate for he is involving himself in the Ulthwé POC just now, but a Gut Score won't be generous with your list as is, I suggest (again) that you write some background and Tactics involving that list to get the best of it. ;)

Now, is this list finished or are you open to suggestions to get it even better? I understand you made second in a RT, congrats for that, but I see a few points that could get improved, and Rating will not be made until possible changes are made.

HQ: 695 pts
Eldrad Ulthran - x pts
10 Seer Council Warlocks - 320 pts
- 3 Warlocks normal as equipped
- 5 Warlocks w/destructor
- 1 Warlock w/enhance
- 1 Warlock w/embolden
- Wave Serpent w/Brightlance, Spirit Stones, Vector Eng. - 165 pts

ELITE: 321 pts
Fire Dragons X 9 w/Exarch Dragon Breath flamer - 156 pts
- Wave Serpent w/Brightlance, Spirit Stone, Vector Eng. - 165 pts

TROOPS: 559 pts
Dire Avengers 5 - 60 pts

Storm Guardians X 10, 2 w/ flamers - 92 pts
Wave Serpent w/ Brightlance, Spirit Stone, Vector Eng. - 165 pts

Storm Guardians X 10, 2 w/ flamers - 92 pts
Wave Serpent w/Missile Launcher Spirit Stones Vector Eng. - 150 pts

HEAVY:
415 pts
Fire Prism - x pts
Fire Prism - x pts
Falcon w/Sh. Cannon Spirit Stone, Vector Eng. Holofield - 185 pts

Total Points: 1990 pts

Okay, here we go for Starky's moc-score:

1.. Anti-tank potential: Most of the units in that list have some AT capabilities and the range/mobility to bring it to bear, although I feel that some modifications could be done to improve this a bit, so overall Good 0.8
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: There is some combo available to deal with MEQ in this list, although all fragile and can be easily enough neutered given concentrated effort. However, the large number of Templates combined with Doom will see off even SM, so Above Average 0.7
3.. Anti-Horde potential: The sheer number of Blasts and Templates, combined with Doom should wipe off hordes from the tabletop quite efficiently, Very Good 0.9
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: Mostly short and long ranged firepower with little middle ground, but the list have great mobility and can bring it's shorter ranged weapons to bear where it count, so Good 0.8
5.. Assault potential: The Seer Council, Eldrad, Doom, Fortune have a good CC potential there, and despite not being very good at it, two Storm Guardian units supported by Doom are not to be sneezed at against a weak CC opponent, Above Average 0.7
6.. Scoring Units / point level: Three Scoring Unit at that point level is quite low considering the vulnerability of these units and not great, but the mechanised nature of the list and contesting possibility offer excellent possibilities, so Above Average 0.7
7.. Durability or Resilience: Double Fortune, lot of Fast Skimmers, Vectored Engines, mobility... I really think Holofields on the Prisms would be a better option than spamming V-Engines, but the list is Good in that regard, 0.8
8.. Flexibility: The entire list is a fast reactionary force easily able to outpace opponents bring the fight where it hurts the most, Good 0.8
9.. Mission Capability: Good in that regard, although Tank Shocking and KP denial isn't optimal (no Holofield on Prisms) and Assault could be more diversified, but overall Good 0.8
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: This list, although configured as a Reserve List, isn't really one with the lack of an Autarch. However, Eldrad's Divination rule compensate for first Turn AT vulnerability. Synergy is certainly there, although three HS choices may hurt in composition tournament wise, but the flavour is definitely Ulthwé, so Very Good 0.9

Rating = 7.9/10 Others may score it differently; A good, competitive list, mechanised is certainly one of the best way to go in 5th ed and it sports one of the best CC unit in the game, although I see the heavy use of Vectored Engines as overpriced it is certainly a form of KP denial. This list could do with a power weapon armed Autarch at least, if only for Reserve potential and could give a well needed boost and flexibility to the overall army.

   Starky
« Last Edit: June 6, 2009, 08:36:45 PM by Starrakatt »

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Offline Farseer Jenkins

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #11 on: June 2, 2009, 10:36:32 AM »
I am always up for suggestions.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #12 on: June 2, 2009, 02:26:49 PM »
Alright then.

Why give the EML Serpent to a Storm Guardian squad and a Brightlance Serpent to the Council and Dragons?
I would swap the former for one of the later, considering that the Council and Dragons are the ones who will have to close fast with the enemy, so their Serpent having the best guns are as important, especially the Council who may well get it's Serpent shot down or destroyed in CC when positioning for an Assault.

You have 10 pts left, so I would drop 1 Destructor from the Council, leaving you with 20 pts, which I would invest in a second Embolden and Enhance for insurance policy.

Vectored Engines are good for Skimmers that will brush in close with the enemy, such as the Council and Falcon/Avengers, but that useful for the other tanks who usually stay at range or do mop up duty.
You could save some points there and use them to buy a single Holofield for a Prism: There's always one who is more exposed than the other, survival and KP denial here.

Alternatively, you could entirely drop the EML on that Serpent and go with basic twin-Shurican to get more pts - An option I would favor for the Council's transport.

Are you the one for using Reserves, as is: Keeping a single Serpent in Reserve to Score/Contest late in the game? If that's the case, swapping V-Engines for Star Engines for that Serpent is a great way of buying versatility and extra speed.

Other than some minor tweaks that I've mentioned, I think your list could hardly get better without drastically altering it.

   Starky

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Offline Farseer Jenkins

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #13 on: June 2, 2009, 07:46:21 PM »
Thank you very much for the advice. Now the real question would you play a drastically differant list?

Offline stezerok

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #14 on: June 2, 2009, 08:26:10 PM »
Alright, so here's the rating that you requested:

Mechanized “Seer Council List”

Strategy: Fire Prism disrupts enemy infantry from distance, Waveserpents peck away at tanks until Fire Dragons hit, Seer Councils drop, press “win” button, Flat Out troops last minute. Three Troops allow for control of majority of objectives in all game types combined with enough units to contest/kill any remaining enemy objectives/units. 13 KP’s is on the high end, however a couple of these units will likely prove impossible to kill either due to their own innate toughness (namely Seer Council, HoloFalcon), or due to being sheltered by Skimmer transports. Player will just have to watch exposing weak units at the wrong time.

.9

Composition: Unit selection is fine. Seer Council Super Unit is mounted and ready to go, Troops are stowed away, and Fire Dragons are taken to ensure Super Tanks go down. Prisms disruption is also perfect for the scenario. Each Troop unit lost will be devastating blow in scoring games, though most likely the enemy will be a bit preoccupied by the massive seer council with Eldrad heading their way. There is a clear lack of CC, however this is greatly mitigated by the fact that Seer Councils are incredibly tough, and everything is mobile.

.8

Efficiency: Option selection is a little scattered, and not quite optimal. The enormous amount of Destructors on the Seer Council is surprising but I hardly think this is a disadvantage, as what can honestly survive that many wounds being placed on a single squad without severe damage? Even Terminators will take a good number of casualties, and the Destructors don’t detract from the squads CC capabilities. They do detract from points that could be spent elsewhere, but whether those 20-30 points are NEEDED elsewhere is another question. The large amount of Vectored Engines is largely wasted considering, those boats want to be firing their Bright Lances at Land Raiders/Battle Wagons/Leman Russ’ and thus the destroyed/immobilized result is moot. The EML on the Waveserpent should be upgraded to a BL as it’s better AT, and a single TL small blast won’t add too much anti-infantry, which should be left to the bs 3 Falcon with shuriken cannon, though Scatter Laser/Shuriken Cannon would be optimal for that role. Most essential however is giving Holofields and Spirit Stones to both Fire Prisms. Despite their long range, Fire Prisms are still not invulnerable, even if you have other big units to distract your opponent. Any AV 12 vehicle with no real defenses pounding the enemy at range is going to look like the perfect target in Kill Points. Lack of DestructorLocks on the Guardians is also slightly disturbing, as when they do finally drop they really want to make sure whatever they’re fighting is dead, but then again maybe all of your DestructorLocks are in the Seer Council ;)

.7

Theme: The Ulthwe theme is an admittedly strong one in the tournament environment. In the end whether you’d like to call it Ulthwe due to the Seer Council and the Guardians, or Saim-Hann due to the numerous Skimmers, this list is designed to really mess up the opponent and make the best of what our current codex has to offer. As far as your Ulthwe theme is concerned it has two of the most important elements, which are Guardians, and Psykers. Some players would argue that the presence of any aspect warriors at all becomes “unfluffy” for Ulthwe, but this just simply isn’t true and so Dire Avengers (or ‘Black’ Guardians as you would) and Fire Dragons are fine. My only criticism with this list in particular is a lack of creativity. Though I don’t mean to sound offensive, the fact is that lists like this have been cropping up all over the place, and they are rather formulaic when it gets down to it (hell I wrote a similar one not too long ago!). So you may want to be careful as in some comps players may write you off as simply using Craftworld Ulthwe as an “excuse” to use Eldrad and the Seer Council…

.7

.9 Strategy +.8 Composition +.7 Efficiency +.7 Theme divided by 4 categories =.775 total out of 1

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Offline Farseer Jenkins

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #15 on: June 3, 2009, 07:19:51 AM »
Thank you very much that was very informative. Great writeup.

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

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Re: mech Seer council Ulthwe 2000pts
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2009, 02:43:03 PM »
Sorry it took me so long to get this review done... overseas deployment sucks.   :P

Chaplain Swordwind Rating:

Durability: 1/2

If the Fire Prisms had Holo-Fields on them, I probably would have upgraded this to a 1.5.  Without those upgrades, only a few of your units qualify as "tough" by my way of thinking, leaving the rest vulnerable to piecemeal distruction.

Flexibility: 1.5/2

This list does not rely on any one unit to win the game, and thanks to everything being mounted, you have many options for deployment, as well as the flexibility to change your game plan as needed.  The only potential trouble I see is the fragility of your scoring units.  You cannot take advantage of your Guardians' anti-infantry capabilities without dismounting them, and that of course leaves them vulnerable.  If you keep them mounted all game, they do not contribute to your attacks against the enemy.  That leaves you down over 10% (by points) of your combat power. 

Lethality: 1.5/2

Roughly half of the units in this army could almost be accused of "overkill" against their designated targets.  The rest, while not that deadly, are capable of inflicting harm as well.  The points invested in the skimmers, which are useful but not all that deadly (Prisms excepted), would be better spent on more combat power if you wanted full credit for this particular component of my rating.

Mobility: 2/2

Everything is mounted in fast skimmers, making this the easiest part of this army to rate.  Mobility is definitely one of the strongest assets of this army.

Synergy: 2/2

The units in this list do an excellent job of covering each other's weaknesses, and they also provide redundancy where it is needed.  The whole of this list is greater than the sum of its parts.

Total: 8/10

It looks like a good, competitive list overall.  I can see how you could place 2nd at the RTT with this.  Good Job.
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