Topic: Vehicle durability in 6th edition

[Lazarus]

I'm wondering what type experience people are having with Hull Points in 6th edition? In the few games that I have watched and played in, tanks in general die much faster than they did before.

Example: I shot a Dark Eldar Venom yesterday with a Vibro cannon doing a single glancing hit removing a hull point. I then got a penetrating hit destroying a weapon while also removing a hull point. This destoyed the vehicle since it only had 2 hull points.

I glanced a Ravager to death with 3 glancing hits.

My Warwalker was destroyed from a glancing hit and a penetrating shaken result as it also added up to 2 hull points.

I charged a skimmer with 3 Witchblades netting myself 6 hits due to the new rules. Despite the nerf to the Witchblade, I still landed 4 glances and a penetration which again, killed it before we even rolled on the damage table.


Cover is more readily available but if you are not lucky enough to make those saves, it seems as it they go down much faster now....

[tactica]

Heavy vehicles such as Battlewagons and Land Raiders actually seem a little more durable to ranged firepower anything that is like AV12 or less goes down very easy. Also just about anything in assault is real easy to kill, basically if a vehicles gets assaulted it will die.

The only vehicles that seem hard to take down are aircraft, when an opponent runs like three or more flying units it is a real headache to deal with if you are not set up for it.



 

[Guildmage Aech]

You seem to be pointing out that fragile vehicles are fragile. Units like venoms would often die to a couple of hits in 5th edition, and show me any vehicle that would enjoy being beat on with witchblades in the old rules!

Vehicles in general are slightly more fragile, although at the benefit of being more predictable. There are advantages such as no damage rolls on glances means support fire vehicles are actually more effective.

[Lazarus]

You seem to be pointing out that fragile vehicles are fragile.

Well, I was trying to point out actual game results instead of just theory hammer so I'm limited to the games I've actually played. I have indeed seen several other instances of vehicles being destroyed quickly.

Units like venoms would often die to a couple of hits in 5th edition

True, but they hardly die from a shaken + weapon destroyed result in the old rules did they?

Vehicles in general are slightly more fragile, although at the benefit of being more predictable. There are advantages such as no damage rolls on glances means support fire vehicles are actually more effective.

Yes, they are more effective assuming the opponent does not just strip away their hull points and kill them.

[Partninja]

What I am finding is that one just does not need to spam as much AT as before. Granted, this is due to the new hull points rules. Things like LRs, and wave serpents are still tough to take down, you just don't need to dedicate as much to do so. It's in a better place my opinion. Makes meching up  less viable, and gets more troopers back in the game.

[angel of death 007]

Beats the old way if you ask me.   I have fired a massed amount of fire power at vehicles the equivalent of a rhino before only to see bad penetration rolls mean the vehicle suffers nothing more than a glance or shaken, actually more like 6 glances which was ridiculous IMHO.

Or assaulting a vehicle with say 20-30 troops and because it moved fast it meant that you couldn't even land the hits in assault let alone take out the vehicles.   

Vehicles were way too powerful in 5th, especially if you factor in the amount of cover saves they got.  Granted there might be more cover saves now but they are weaker save values and vehicles are less resilient.  Basically you throw enough firepower at a vehicle you can shut it down.  The way it should be rather than you throw a lot of firepower at a vehicle and due to some lucky rolls the vehicle ends up with no damage.

[tactica]

Has anyone done the 'math hammer' on this yet?

I feel like Land raiders and maybe even predators and their like are now more durable to a lot of weapon types, at least from the front. Am I correct in saying this or is just my imagination?

[WisdomLS]

I find that it easier to put down a vehicle if you want to as volume of fire is now more of less guaranteed to take down a light vehicle.

Vehicle have gained a little durability as a side effect of being easier to kill and less useful, by less useful I'm refering to the changes to the passenger rules and the fact that they can't contest.
This has led to less vehicles being fielded and thus less anti-tank weapons being taken and thus vehicle have less things that threaten them.

Overall I really like the new balance 

[Lazarus]

I certainly see less vehicles fielded so far.....which tends to make me believe that they are indeed less durable than before. (shrug)

[Blood Hawk]

Vehicles were too good in 5th honestly, i mean every Imperial army I face at tournaments was either all in transports or terminator armor.  The new rules vehicles die much easier, which is probably what they were going for.

I consider it good change personally.

[Guildmage Aech]

True, but they hardly die from a shaken + weapon destroyed result in the old rules did they?

They could still die on one hit quite easily thou. I appreciated you're sticking to actual experience but your examples don't seem that different from what would be 'normal' previously.

I've only played on game of 6th ed too. A hammerhead exploded first time to a multi-melta hit and I ignored a devilfish, meanwhile three railgun hits bounced harmlessly of my predator (which probably went into shock from surprise!).

I think the big change is that vehicles can't be bunkers anymore. A light apc won't fortify an objective like they used to for example.

Yes, they are more effective assuming the opponent does not just strip away their hull points and kill them.

Its easier to get cover saves and you'd still need a lot of anti-tank fire to do that to many vehicles a turn.

Its not the end of vehicles or transports but a welcome rebalance for the other kinds of units. I think its a good change that mech isn't automatically 'the best'

[Lazarus]

They could still die on one hit quite easily thou. I appreciated you're sticking to actual experience but your examples don't seem that different from what would be 'normal' previously.

Sure, one shot kills happoen in either edition. My point was that overall, they die faster from the shots that do not kill them on one go. The examples I gave were certainly different than previously shown.

Any Weapons that were glancing only or AP - got a massive boost in effectivness for the new edition. Blast weapons being full strength is also a big boost. Combine that with at worst a 3+ to hit a vehicle in CC and it's hard to look at it any other way.

I've only played on game of 6th ed too. A hammerhead exploded first time to a multi-melta hit and I ignored a devilfish, meanwhile three railgun hits bounced harmlessly of my predator (which probably went into shock from surprise!).

Yeah, that is pretty shocking. I think Tau will be fun to play in 6th.

I think the big change is that vehicles can't be bunkers anymore. A light apc won't fortify an objective like they used to for example.

Agreed. I'm mainly seeing heavy vehicles or Flyers now.

Its easier to get cover saves and you'd still need a lot of anti-tank fire to do that to many vehicles a turn.

I've seen lots of firepower armies that have no issue removing vehicles from the board. Several in a turn if you want.

Its not the end of vehicles or transports but a welcome rebalance for the other kinds of units. I think its a good change that mech isn't automatically 'the best'

Agreed. I do not want one build to clearly be "the best". The problem is, I think we will see that anyways. In general, anything that can do a combination of large volume fire with some dedicated AT guns.

[jawmonkey]

One thing I haven't noticed yet is that a vehicle's ability to get an obscured cover save has increased. Hull points have made it so vehicles won't last as long, but really it's just forcing players to be more careful most times with their tanks. With the new rules I would dare say that a squad placed in front should allow a cover save to almost any vehicle excet a monolith or smilar (Haven't lined up warriors in frnt of a monolith yet though). Keep them in cover until the last minute. Stop relying so much on the tank wall or line and start adopting a wedge!

Still reading through the rulebook though, I'm at walkers...

[NightMoor]

In my games so far I'd say average AV11-13 vehicles seem to be in between the "slightly easier to take down" and "basically the same", mostly because while it's true that Hull Points make the damage you do to vehicles more consistently deadly, the weakening of the penetration table means that you don't quite see one-shot kills as often (particularly when talking about Missiles and other stuff worse than AP2).

That said, it's definitely much easier to take down stuff like Warwalkers because those glances are always golden against them.

I can also vouch first-hand for the usefulness of Haywire grenades - small squads of Swooping Hawks will be making it in to my Eldar lists regularly I think.

[Griff0rd]

In my tests I have noticed that they can go down faster, but also in some cases Eldar vehicles having the jink saves have made them somewhat more durable. In a couple cases where I would not have gotten a save in 5th edition rules I have been saved by the new special rule.

I will also say that Necrons and volume of fire are more scary to my rides.

[syth773]

That said, haywire grenades and melta guns are godly vrs any vehicle if they can get close to them.  Lost one monolith in a single turn to a bunch of swooping hawks with their nade launcher and fortune.

But again, as pointed out previously by Hymirl, a unit of swooping hawks was always a great way to take out that heavy vehicle anyway! the only trouble was people probably never experienced it because they were otherwise a "mediocre" unit choice and people were only looking for "the best".

[KJQ]

Yup. My Caestus Assault Ram is going to see a lot more play, loaded with TH/SS termies and that Large Blast Magna-melta is gonna put the hurt on a lot of vehicle squadrons.

[magenb]

I've found that single shot high S heavy weapons are no long a requirement and it has opened up other infantry option, especially against heavy armour (12+). Ontop of this, Mech heavy armies vs infatry heavy armies are no longer a one sided afair.

My war walkers so far have lived longer, although I see them becoming a target priority soon.

[Aben Zin]

I think that while it is easier to glance vehicle to death the new rules actually make them more useful while they're still alive- I was fed up with glancing hits consistantly stuning my Vindicator in 5th, at least now I can probably get a chance to fire it first!

[Shas'Oink]

I think that while it is easier to glance vehicle to death the new rules actually make them more useful while they're still alive- I was fed up with glancing hits consistantly stuning my Vindicator in 5th, at least now I can probably get a chance to fire it first!

THIS!!

Having played a few games I've found that all things considered vehicles are still pretty durable. Probably no less durable than before really.

For example, I recently played a game VS Valars blood angels with my Tau. A unit of broadsides shot at a land speeder squadron and because of the damage allocation rules - where you have to kill one vehicle before results are applied to the next, I was only able to destroy a weapon & immobilise one of the two! The second was then free to continue on his own! But a little later, a devilfish, managed to score two lucky glances on the last speeder and killed it! A perfect example of added durability and potential for glancing kills!

In the previous edition, I would have completely nullified the unit with the initial broadside volley! So, all things considered, +1 to durability for 6th!

One thing that I have been finding is that dedicated anti-tank weapons really are good anti tank weapons! Damage caused by an AP1 weapon will kill something (seeing as you only need to roll a 4+ to do so!) So, all that has really happened is that there are now multiple tactics that you can try in order to kill tanks... dedicated AT, mid strength volume or even close combat are all options that different armies can try.

But in all this we have to remember that vehicles are still not necessarily easier to kill AND that they are now much better at laying down supporting fire!