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Author Topic: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.  (Read 15405 times)

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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2010, 05:29:16 PM »
Different writers have different strengths. Matt's is not in the background department. Neither is Jervis'. Alessio is much stronger on the background stuff, slightly weaker from a rules perspective. Such is life, but I don't think it's legitimate grounds to hate someone, even in their capacity as a member of a company
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Offline Benis

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2010, 05:52:52 PM »
The issue is that he made it seem as though Imperial Fists, for example, find the Ultramarines way of doing things to be in all ways superior to their own, and venerate Guilliman as much as they do Rogal Dorn, and that is stupid.

This is not the impression I got from reading the codex so I guess it depends on how you view the material. But I would say that all Chapters (including the First Founding) venerate Guilliman as the author of the Codex Astartes and the unifier of the Imperium, they all most certainly have a high respect for the Ultramarines as well. Guilliman is with out a doubt honoured through out the Adeptus Astartes, which probably is unique amongst the Primarchs.

In the end it isn't really anything you have to buy into too much if you don't want to, like Gornon said, make your pick.

It is also a question on how the direction of the Codex background is steered by the company as a whole. All of the 5th edition codices make sure to contain a lot of "epic" victories and incredible feats so I'm not sure you can blame such occurrences on specific authors,more a trend of "wow, aren't we cool! Buy and play us!".

Offline malicant

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2010, 06:34:48 PM »
His fluff for the marine codex is pretty poorly written.  He uses a lot of big words that seem to just be there for the sake of it which, as any writer will tell you, is a major amateurs' mistake.  Also, the whole thing reads like it's saying all marines are ultra marines, just in different armour.  As someone above said, it's the product of a fanboy.

Offline NewHeretic

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2010, 06:39:55 PM »
You'd rather the codices were written by someone who is not a fanboy?  Maybe that's what happened to the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines. :-\

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Offline Awfully Dandy

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2010, 06:45:18 PM »
Different writers have different strengths. Matt's is not in the background department. Neither is Jervis'. Alessio is much stronger on the background stuff, slightly weaker from a rules perspective. Such is life, but I don't think it's legitimate grounds to hate someone, even in their capacity as a member of a company

Well you shouldn't really hate anyone, let alone a man who writes books about toy soldiers which doesn't meet your expectations.

As others have said it's the pushing of the Ultras. While we can all agree they should have a special place for being well one of the most if not the most influential space marine chapters, at the same time they are simply a chapter. I can't see why a first founding chapter wouldn't be proud of their own unique heritage and engage in a cult of Primarch worship. So I think they would see Guilliman as a important figure and all round good guy but not more important to them on a personal level then there own chapter heritage.

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2010, 07:01:28 PM »
Except that it is explicitly stated (in codices other than Mr. Ward's) that, with the exception of the non-standard ones like the Black Templars and Space Wolves, ALL Space Marines hold Guilliman in great regard due to his work on the Codex Astartes. Mat may have played that up a bit more than normal, but it is well-established.

Personally my biggest gripe is the completely arbitrary change to the progression of a Space Marine. It used to be that once you'd progressed past Scout you would get funnelled into whatever branch suited you most. Those Marines who liked combat the most became assault marines, those who liked shooting most became devastators, and the vast majority who were adept at both equally became Tactical Marines. The decision to change that is just...weird, and I personally choose to disregard it entirely because of how stupid it is. But I suppose that's the point; if you don't like a particular thing, just ignore it. There's no need to start hate campaigns about the author on those grounds.

It's also worth pointing out that the position of games designer is a beslubbering hard one, because you have to be a) a good fiction writer (or at least a tolerable one), b) imaginative (because it's extremely hard to write enjoyable and interesting background) and c) good at figuring out how rules are going to work out in-game. It's very easy to say "they did a crap job", much harder to do one yourself. Give Mat a little credit, he does a passable job on a regular basis, probably more than the vast majority of us could do.
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Offline augustmanifesto

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2010, 07:02:07 PM »
yeah, about this whole Imperial Fists (and others) want to be Ultramainres fluff fail...

I do recall that descendents of Dorn are pretty big on keeping a tightly knit brotherhood. The Feast of Blades is a good example. I also recall that the IF only cooperated with the Codex Astartes to avoid a second civil war. I also see in the SM codex a IF quote "The Emperor commands us. Dorn Guides us." notably not "the example of the Ultramarines guide us" or "that one fruity Ultra guy guides us" Same goes for their battle cry, "Primarch-progenitor! To your glory and the glory of him on Earth" or whatever.

It's especially absurd for ward to inject 'ultra-envy' unto the original Chapters, as some of their accomplishments outstrip the Ultramarines in some cases. Imperial Fists defended Terra...why would they be envious of a Chapter that didn't do anything during the Heresy? The Imperial Fists have the extreme-freaking mind blowing honor of calling Terra their home world, maintaining a chapter keep there, and having served as the Emperor's body guards. I mean, the Emperor gave Dorn a freaking death star to base his Chapter on. Do the Ultramarines have a 10,000 year old "I love you son, here's a moon sized space ship" present from the Emperor? No. No they don't. They have some wood elves-like solar system populated by love, faeries, and space unicorns where everybody is really polite.

Ward seriously has to be smoking crack. I hate that guy. I swear to God the black templars should gather all of their 4-6,000 dudes and just epically pwn the ultramarines out of existence.

for an accurate depiction of the ultramarines, go here http://masterdarksol.blogspot.com/2009/11/no-one-likes-veggies-and-dip.html

also:

Quote
It's very easy to say "they did a crap job", much harder to do one yourself. Give Mat a little credit, he does a passable job on a regular basis, probably more than the vast majority of us could do.

no. I could do a better job. If you do annoying stuff, you are responsible for that annoying stuff.
 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 07:11:22 PM by augustmanifesto likes nakedpower »
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Maybe the Emp was further away than Biff could imagine. And even more mega.

Offline Benis

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2010, 07:21:08 PM »
We're well into the depth of background here so it may be worthy of a split from the subject but...

Rogal Dorn did not oppose the Codex Astartes or the split because he felt it was somehow inferior or a bad move, he felt that it questioned his loyalty - Him! the stalwart defender of Terra?! - so it was not really an issue of strategy or organisation but one of pride. All the First Founding Chapters (and most of their 2nd Founding Successors) have a great pride in their heritage and their Primarch, brotherhoods of their own or close connections with their Brother-Chapters, but that doesn't mean that they do not venerate Guilliman or that they strive to be exemplars of the Codex Astartes:
Quote from: Index Astartes II, p. 17
Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of the Codex doctrine.

It is not something newly invented or a strange turn of the background, it has been there all the time. It seems that the Legion-fetish of 3rd and 4th edition has left some doubts on this issue though.

Oh, and don't forget who got the Imperial Fists out of the Iron Cage, the Ultramarines and Guilliman, that's who! ;)

Offline augustmanifesto

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2010, 08:05:30 PM »
nobody is disputing that Mr. ultra-fruity-primarch (that's his name, right? ;) )is respected. What is being disputed is that it is absurd to suggest that first founding chapters, or even other non-ultra successors, want to be ultramarines or should be judged relative to the ultramarines as some paragon of space marine-ality. Your points, save the last one, actually reinforce this  or are irrelevent to this matter (e.g. why dorn almost rejected the codex astartes, that the IF adhere to the astartes rididly now) :)

and the imperial fists didn't need the boys in blue to get out of the Iron Cage. They were doing just fine on their own, thank you very much  ::) lol
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Biff Puzzled his brains. He thunk fast. The Emp was the Emp, natch. Techs worshiped the Emp. Even Scum swore by the Emp...The Emp was megabossgod. Yet who was the Emp? Where was the Emp?
Everwhere. Nowhere
Somewhere.
Not Here...
So maybe nowhere near.
Maybe the Emp was further away than Biff could imagine. And even more mega.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2010, 08:14:28 PM »
You'd rather the codices were written by someone who is not a fanboy?  Maybe that's what happened to the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines. :-\

NewHeretic

Actually, I would want to see a Codex made by a 3 man band.  One fanboy, one fellow who does not care for the army, and one guy who does not care one way or the other.  That being said, I don't know how GW sets up their Codex teams.  The fan boy will add cool new things, the hater will weed out the cool new things and the neutral guy will act as a tie breaker and unbiased point of view.

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It's also worth pointing out that the position of games designer is a   beslubbering hard one

I agree.  The handful of scenarios I have tried to make or even helping remake the Tau dex over in the Tau forums has showed that to me.  It's hard to balance out everything.

It's also hard to write consistent background.  Even writing my own little tales about my Battle Sisters.  Its only one document, but keeping the details straight is hard and realistically in the context of 40k is even tougher.  Dates are even worse.

I think I'll agree with Chuckles and rescind my statement that I 'hate' Matt Ward.  I can't 'hate' the man as I don't know him personally.  I don't like his work at all, I find it too goofy and cartoonish, but I don't want him physically harmed (like I have seen some people suggest), nor do I think he is on proscribed drugs, nor do I want his job taken or his pay reduced.  Especially over a toy game.  I just want GW to sit him down and tell him to tone things down a bit.

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and the imperial fists didn't need the boys in blue to get out of the   Iron Cage. They were doing just fine on their own, thank you very much  (Image removed from quote.) lol

No, they weren't.  They knew they were entering a trap, but they were not going to get out alive if not for the Ultramarines.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 08:16:35 PM by Gornon »
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Offline augustmanifesto

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2010, 08:19:00 PM »
note the rolling eyes ;)
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Biff Puzzled his brains. He thunk fast. The Emp was the Emp, natch. Techs worshiped the Emp. Even Scum swore by the Emp...The Emp was megabossgod. Yet who was the Emp? Where was the Emp?
Everwhere. Nowhere
Somewhere.
Not Here...
So maybe nowhere near.
Maybe the Emp was further away than Biff could imagine. And even more mega.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2010, 08:21:18 PM »
I interpreted the eye rolling being at the concept of the Imperial Fists ever needing help, not at your statement itself.  My bad.
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Offline NewHeretic

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2010, 08:42:22 PM »
and the imperial fists didn't need the boys in blue to get out of the Iron Cage. They were doing just fine on their own, thank you very much  ::) lol
note the rolling eyes ;)

Was that a reference to Easy Company's comment about being rescued by Patton's tanks at Bastogne? ;D

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Offline Aluinn

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2010, 09:19:49 PM »
This is not the impression I got from reading the codex so I guess it depends on how you view the material. But I would say that all Chapters (including the First Founding) venerate Guilliman as the author of the Codex Astartes and the unifier of the Imperium, they all most certainly have a high respect for the Ultramarines as well. Guilliman is with out a doubt honoured through out the Adeptus Astartes, which probably is unique amongst the Primarchs.

In the end it isn't really anything you have to buy into too much if you don't want to, like Gornon said, make your pick.

It is also a question on how the direction of the Codex background is steered by the company as a whole. All of the 5th edition codices make sure to contain a lot of "epic" victories and incredible feats so I'm not sure you can blame such occurrences on specific authors,more a trend of "wow, aren't we cool! Buy and play us!".

Well I do wish I could interpret it the way you do, but to me it's so ham-fisted that it leaves out any other interpretation than (I'll quote it again for you although someone already did):

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever.  Yes, really!....With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations (Blood Angels) or stolid stubbornness (Space Wolves and Dark Angels) all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

And that's straight from the horse's mouth. You see, other chapters admiring the Ultramarines is fine. For them to be depressed because they can never be Ultramarines is most definitely not. I'm sure the Imperial Fists are too busy ruminating on how they had the nearly unmatched honor of defending the Imperial Palace during the Heresy to be crying about not being Ultras and plastering their walls with pinups of Roboute Guilliman. Yes they embrace the Codex Astartes, but they have also always (until Matt Ward) looked up to Rogal Dorn a hell of a lot more than Guilliman. He actually implies that their chapter cult would be worshipping the guy rather than (or at least as much as) their own Primarch.

That's just an example, the same goes for all the other First Founding chapters and their successors.

It even violates the rule of cool because no one who plays any of those chapters wants to imagine their Marines getting home from battle, locking themselves in their rooms, sobbing and cutting themselves because "they will never be Ultramarines".

Oh and as far as Mephiston, whoever asked why I think stats are tied to physical size: Strength and Toughness have always been tied closely to physical size. Why do Grots have S2/T2? Because they're small. Why don't Tau have S2? Because they're human-sized. If Marines weren't genetically modified and bigger than humans they could never have S4/T4. The threshold for your Lord becoming a Daemon Prince (large model) in the 3rd/4th Ed. Chaos Dex was having T5.

I could go on, but anyway you get the gist. Strength and Toughness are physical stats. A very, very few Marine special characters since 3rd Ed. have had a 5 for one or the other, but 6 for both is absurd. Not broken game-wise, but stupid and inconsistent.

I should add that I do not hate Matt Ward as a person, I'm sure he may be a very fine and amiable guy, I just hope that he either stops writing codexes or gets a lot better at it soon. 

Offline Rikerwota

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #34 on: April 1, 2010, 12:41:30 AM »
I have said it on more than one occasion due to many ribbing comments from locals at my gaming club... I, as an Ultramarines fan and Second Company player for more than 15 years am somewhat embarrassed by the amount of Ultramarines fan-teen-pop sensationy in the latest codex. We know all about the Ultramarines, let's hear more about the other codex chapters, like the Iron Hands or Imperial Fists etc.

As for Matt Ward, I don't really have much of an opinion. I tend to rant against the Codecies themselves, rather than the writers, as they need to have everything signed off from the top. I agree with the previous poster, CSM was FAIL in my books - the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. Here's hoping for the next one...

Offline Lorizael

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #35 on: April 1, 2010, 03:30:49 AM »
From the BA 'dex:
"Indeed it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels".

WTF?!?!?!

So, not the death of their Primarch and the start of the Black Rage/Red Thirst then? That's just a minor lasting effect compared to bloody Guilliman. Pah!

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #36 on: April 1, 2010, 05:48:42 AM »
We know all about the Ultramarines, let's hear more about the other codex chapters, like the Iron Hands or Imperial Fists etc.

For that matter, how about some more speciific Codexs on the various Chaos marines? (After, of course, DE and Crons get their long awaited books). Let's see...Black Templar, Dark Angels, Wolves, Smurfs, and now Stinky Blood. How about Codex Black Legion, 1K sons, etc....they are at least as diverse in abilities as the SM. A good World Eaters Codex would rock....
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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #37 on: April 1, 2010, 05:52:40 AM »
There's a fairly massive leap being conducted here. Matt said in an interview that "all other marines want to be like the Ultramarines", which is a statement that has a number of possible meanings, and people have read that and decided they want to be pissed off, and have therefore taken the statement to its logical extreme. "Want to be like the Ultramarines" does not mean

be depressed because they can never be Ultramarines is most definitely not
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Offline malicant

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #38 on: April 1, 2010, 06:09:15 AM »
You'd rather the codices were written by someone who is not a fanboy?  Maybe that's what happened to the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines. :-\

NewHeretic


Honestly yes I would.  Fans writing about their favourite setting generally produced fan fiction which is generally pretty bad.  I can't speak much for rules but I do have an interest in writing and mr Ward's fluff reeks of fan fiction. 

You see, fans will often write what they want to happen and not what should happen.  The characters they produce are often simply efforts to place themselves into the setting and this produces tripe. 

A good writer writing for 40k would show us both sides of the ultra marine coin.  Mat Ward decided it was ok to have the Iron Hands cull a planet for insurrection but no way would his idols do that.  No, what I would like to see is a dark side to the Ultra marines.  That shining, prim and proper image of their needs to be tempered with a bit of arrogance and cruelty, because it are the flaws that make a fictional character seem real. 

The codex implies, to me, that (and this has been mentioned) the Imperial Fists adopted the Codex Astartes because they saw that Gulliman was clearly a genius and their own method of war were flawed.  This contradicts what I understood to be the previous story; that Dorn simply relented to avoid conflict.  Gulliman was arrogant and wouldn't listen to what Dorn had to say, instead insisting that he knew best.  This isn't even suggested and instead, Matt Ward produces something bland and, to be honest, rather dull.

And Calgar absolutely screams "Mary Sue".
« Last Edit: April 1, 2010, 06:14:47 AM by malicant »

Offline Aluinn

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Re: Matt Ward. I gotta figure this out.
« Reply #39 on: April 1, 2010, 06:53:24 AM »
There's a fairly massive leap being conducted here. Matt said in an interview that "all other marines want to be like the Ultramarines", which is a statement that has a number of possible meanings, and people have read that and decided they want to be pissed off, and have therefore taken the statement to its logical extreme. "Want to be like the Ultramarines" does not mean

be depressed because they can never be Ultramarines is most definitely not

Well the quote (which also was already posted, but I'll use it again for emphasis) was:

"this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard. These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman."

So yes I was using a little hyperbole there (well, more than little), and it is true that Matt Ward never literally says what I did in that post, but it is stated that they want to be like Ultramarines, and of course they never can, for their geneseed ... well you know. So the implication, a very strong implication IMO, is that they are somewhat crestfallen about their lack of Ultramarinehood.

I'd say it's more of a leap to suggest that they don't mind not being Ultramarines, based on what Ward has given us.

But I wouldn't say I'm angry about it, honestly and truly, I realize I can ignore it if I wish. The thing is just that I'd rather enjoy and embrace fluff than have to ignore it.

 


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