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Offline verdonian_XII

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New marine 'dex overpowered?
« on: October 24, 2008, 01:04:16 PM »
As a imperial guard player among the seas of Marineplayers i have started to wonder. Is the new marine rules really overpowered?
i see why peolple gets upset about them since a lot of "overpowered" things from prewious edition (mos notably last Ed Chaos 'Dex)
still i cannot see it is still overpovered.
apart from two things i cannot really see anything wrong with it.
Drop Pods, they have always been here but havent been use due to lack of the model, its scary since they can drop some meltas right onto my tanks land on it or next to it without suffering mishap, and then Freem e with meltas or flamers.

Sternguards (if that is that the ones with thunderhammers) can be a real pain it the arse since they can land a heavy CC blow on me and charge the round thay land by deepstrike! however that means they have to land within 6" of me and not within 1" of me so its not as scary as drop pods.

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Offline vendettaseve

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2008, 01:08:03 PM »
It is not overpowered,

Simply put, it has become much more tactically versatile and brought a new life to a once somewhat bland and samey army selection. Most notably it has brought alot more new and tactically diverse firepower.

Anyone who says its overpowered just need to stop crying and start scheming up a new army list.

And no, thats not Sternguard, its Vanguard or Honor Guard.

Offline Rahveel

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2008, 01:20:14 PM »
there are certainly some nasty tricks and combos in the new SM dex, but TBH, i find that I would rather fight the new dex than the old one. no more I6 libbys with uber-hoods and such.

many of the new options will probably see little use (honor guard, vanguard, MotF, LotD, and the TF cannon) while some (like the LS storm) will only see use in specific army lists. the real strength in the new dex is in its troops. IMO, tac squads benifited the most from the new dex, and encourage players to build a more ballanced list.

Offline malicant

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 01:28:01 PM »
Over powered seems to be a taboo word in here and rightly so as rarely is something blatantly over powered. 

The old marine dex sucked big time imo.  It was a marginal improvement over the old one before that but it was bland as hell and filled with crap that hardly ever got used.  The new dex is brimming with options.  When I first got it I was kind of over whelmed by all the different configurations I could take.

The problem with the new dex seems to be the potential for abuse.  It seems easy to create power gaming lists but I'm always of the opinion that no matter what GW do, some people will always abuse a codex.

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 01:44:07 PM »
Even the power lists aren't all the impressive.  DP armies which are lauded to be the end times, have glaring weaknesses.  The only viable abusive list is the Sali/Sister combo, and even that is only above average at best.

People are not used to marines being so varied, so they misinterpret it as raw power.  People are too used to facing off against the las/plas squads and just don't prepare for fact that marines aren't as vanilla as they used to be.

It is a good codex, but it isn't a broken codex.  Something really similar to this happened when the new ork dex came out.  Everyone was so used to orks being a joke that they were blindsided by a competitive new dex.  And screamed "Broken!" "Overpowered!", and now that the dust has settled we see that orks are a good army, but aren't as scary as first mentioned.

Offline verdonian_XII

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 01:55:18 PM »
i like to have intelligent responsens (dont we all) however i whould still like to see some non marine players opinion or someone to argument on the other side of the spectrum.

All lists vill be abused thats the way it gets when some sort of prize/glory is involved (or you are addicted to winning)

what i am worried about when new codexes is not that they willbe unbeatable, since as a guard player i assume evrything can be killed if i have enough guns pointed at it.

what  i am worried about is that a lot of people abusing the list and therefore take away the fun of gameplay.
so as long as people jst dont take all the strongest units, like 3 super imbah squad, and all freakin named charcters in the book.
i wont whine, and keep changing my army list

the one thing that whould destroy the game whould be that i cannot win with my firepower, when a massed gun-line cannot stop some guys racing unprotected inte my lines, then i'll get a new hobby.

The only list i call "cheesy" "overpowered" and "Out-right evil" is the speak freak orky list with their dang first round charge.
but that is only becouse it is so hard to counter with guardsmen.

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Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 02:26:11 PM »
Even the power lists aren't all the impressive.  DP armies which are lauded to be the end times, have glaring weaknesses.  The only viable abusive list is the Sali/Sister combo, and even that is only above average at best.

Well, I doubt that is the only one - for example, fleeting, infiltrating assault termies comes to mind, via Shrike, and I'm sure other combos will turn up.

That said, while the new codex certainly is powerful, I'm sceptical that is greatly more so than, say, the new ork codex.


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Offline Jerseyboy381

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 02:33:05 PM »
Not at all.  At least nowhere as overpowered as some other armies can be(::Cough::Eldar::Cough:: ), given the right power-gamer.  There are a few dirty tricks we got, but we lost some good stuff too.  Honestly I expectd more considering the "codex pole-vault" trend we've seen in both 40k and fantasy lately.  Often the most "overpowered" dex is the newest, but this time that's not the case.  Basically Marines got a bit more shooty, lost the few real CC monsters we had(Chaplain nerfs) but got some goodies to balance things out and allow people to still run 2 marine armies that don't look a bit alike.  I dd expect more, but having played several times now, I can say Marines aren't "overpowered" at all.  More accurately, we're more competative now, but we are far from the juggernaught people seem to see whenever they see power armor.  Sure there are a few exploits people will use to jack up their army, but who doesn't have that?  You honestly can't tell me that a 3 bassie guard player or one that fields a dozen sharpshooter lascannon teams at 1500 points isn't "overpowered".  Every army has some strategies that are seen as "overpowered", but once you can figure the weakness that strategy has, you're good.
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Offline Khaldun

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 05:31:48 PM »
I would have to agree with Jerseyboy - with the exception of his comment on the eldar - in that the Marines are not unbeatable.  It's just new, so you'll have to adjust your tactics.  Every race has 'combos' that are devastating if they work.  The marines have Shrike and his Termies and Drop pods followed by Vanguards, the Orks have 180 bodies for 1100 points, the Eldar have their tanks, etc...

There's an easy way to beat anything in any army - one just has to figure it out.
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Offline DoctorEvil

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 06:20:44 PM »
I think the appearance of the SM Codex being overpowered also has to do with the release of 5th edition, and this being the first Codex released under 5th (although the Ork Codex probably had 5th edition at least in mind when it was released).

I'm sure next year people will be complaining about the Guard being overpowered too :)

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 06:26:31 PM »
I played (and won) my first game against the new marines with my Grey Knights. Chapter Tactics is an annoying rule and Relic blades are nasty, but I really didn't find them to be more powerful. I really like the idea of the Orbital Strike, though he ended up killing his own dudes and none of mine. I am excited to go agaisnt the new Drop Pods and newer creations the list has access to. I personally found it to be very balanced.
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Offline Draza

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 06:50:23 AM »
I think the reason SM is getting a bad rap is because the codex turned out to be something we werent expecting. After all the codex's getting simplified and the view the SM codex would turn out like the DA/BA one, we all got a rude shock when Jervis took a 180 degree turn on creative direction and gave us the SM codex. Basically gave them a whole bunch of new units (which were needed, SM are boring as bat amphetamine parrot) and a whole host of special rules as well (that we've never seen before).
I'm certainly happy and hope they continue this direction, since the DA and Chaos codex's were way too bland. My only gripe is the increased roll of under-costed special characters creeping into the game.
Are SM cheesy? Hard to tell. Give it time and we'll see. Orks are currently dominating at the moment, so we'll see if SM can knock them off their perch.

Quote
Even the power lists aren't all the impressive.  DP armies which are lauded to be the end times, have glaring weaknesses.  The only viable abusive list is the Sali/Sister combo, and even that is only above average at best

*Shrike with fleeting terminators (assault) and ability to first turn charge with assault Marines.

*Vulkan+ 6 drop podding Iron clad dreadnoughts. Two twin linked heavy flamers each, with three of those bad boys dropping in first turn.

*Shrike (again) with fleeting, infiltrating scouts (6 of them). Don't know if thats cheesy but would be quite funny

*Out-flanking Land raider with assault termiantors (with whats his face on a bike)

Yeah, they're gonna be some fun combos to face :-[

Quote
I played (and won) my first game against the new marines with my Grey Knights. Chapter Tactics is an annoying rule and Relic blades are nasty, but I really didn't find them to be more powerful. I really like the idea of the Orbital Strike, though he ended up killing his own dudes and none of mine. I am excited to go agaisnt the new Drop Pods and newer creations the list has access to. I personally found it to be very balanced
Played against the new Marines twice. All I can say is that my opponent played what was essentially a 4th edition list, so I havent had an opportunity to see the new stuff in action (just the orbital bombardment). Gotta say, the new Machine spirit is awesome, ROW>psychic hood and the free weapons are no big deal. They're free for a reason, the other weapons are much better. Taking a missile launcher is all well and good until you face AV13/14

Quote
I'm sure next year people will be complaining about the Guard being overpowered too

If history repeats itself (aka Orks waiting 10 years), then Guard will be very happy. Fine by me, more variety on the table is a good thing

Offline verdonian_XII

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 08:27:45 AM »
im playing against the list tomorrow, ill probably lose, (i always loose against him) but i am exited to see the new marines.

Quote
ROW>psychic hood and the free weapons are no big deal. They're free for a reason, the other weapons are much better. Taking a missile launcher is all well and good until you face AV13/14


No big deal with free weapons? i pay xxx points to even get a missile launcher and xx points more to get a lascannon,
(not whinig but somehow marine (and csm) players seems to take their heavy weapons for granted especially the free ones)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 12:18:35 PM by verdonian_XII »
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Offline Mr.Tanks

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008, 10:33:12 AM »
I think it's quite powerful (NOT overpowered, I'm not whining), but I guess this is good as it represents how badass SMurfs are meant to be, I still hate them however, have always and will always hate them.
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Offline Snike

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008, 11:23:59 AM »
The new Marine Codex is powerful, yes, but overpowered? No. I can see a million and a one ways to beat their ass really badly. (Deepstriking Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants come to mind, as well as plasma Plague Marine + Rhino spam and huge broods of ass-cheap Spinegaunts.) Also, the army just jumped from a beginner friendly to a lot more pro army. It has more rules than most other armies, making it really hard for beginners to remember them all or use some of the new complicated units efficiently. I can see new players starting Necrons and Chaos far more often.
Also, the new Codex makes Marines really expensive. The normal Tac Marines are a point more expensive than they used to be, which, while it doesn't seem much, really is. While they are able to wield some nasty combos, they are almost all so expensive the opponent can wield a lot more smaller and not quite so nasty combos at the same time.
Also, you have to have 10 dudes in a squad before you can take any special or heavy weapons. This is, however, pretty much not an issue, as you have the combat squads, but it can make a Marine players life pretty hard. For example, using the basic equipment, we have a 10-man squad of Marines with a Sarge (no equipment), a Flamer and a Missile Launcher. No double special weapons, like with Chaos. Now, the Marine player can, during deployment, either split these squads, which makes both of the parts really vulnerable, or keep them in one squad, which makes either the heavy weapon or the rest of the Marines pretty much useless. They either cannot move or cannot shoot the weapon.
Also, the much feared Drop Pods are not that special. I think they are pretty much just as useful as Rhinos (at least Chaos ones), as they are unable to move, thus useless for the squad they were carrying after they have deployed, can't tank shock or ram. The only real bonus they have is the ability to deep strike Dreadnoughts, but that is a pretty risky business, as bad rolls (despite the Inertial Guidance System) can take the Dreadnought somewhere the player really didn't want it to, for example, right in the front of a Wraithlord or into the firing lane of an enemy heavy weapons squad.

Also, as someone already said, the Marine Codex is the first strictly 5th Edition Codex. I am sure every one of the new Codices to follow will spawn a thread similar to this.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:25:37 AM by Snike »
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2008, 04:03:57 PM »
The main problem, as has been said, is it is one of two codices (orks is the other one) that was really made for 5th. And, which two armies are dominating? :D Of course theyre going to be better, because they are up to date. I only have a few gripes, their named HQs being one of them. I really think the fact that they are absolute beasts in and of themselves and do a LOT to the army is a bit much, and fleeting terminators...just, the last thing I ever expected, from any army, ever, would be fleet on terminators. I also think the drop pods are a bit too cheap points-wise for their awesomeness...but GW is just trying to make loads of money. I'm not sure yet on my decision about being able to switch ammo-types on a per turn basis (the amount of ignoring cover is a bit asinine). Vindicares have become a no-brainer being able to move and shoot that gun of theirs, not sure how much I like that, most lists I've seen that aren't DP spam on 2-3 of them. The 3++ storm shields are also unfluffy for shooting and cc? I'm fine with the new LRs, I think they are appropriate, as are the new LD rules and combat squads and new units.

All-in-all, the marine dex is cool (and I HATE marines). However, against the most competitive armies, I do think it adds up to be a bit overpowered, and since they are much less fun then orks, they will take more amphetamine parrot for it.

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2008, 04:11:00 PM »
The main problem, as has been said, is it is one of two codices (orks is the other one) that was really made for 5th.
Remember, Daemons was a 5th ed codex as well.

Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 04:15:28 PM »
Oops, forgot, but again they do pretty darn well too.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2008, 09:32:57 AM »
   I believe that it is not that it is overpowered but that contrarily to most actual Codex the point cost of most units have been heavily adjusted/reduced (Bikes, Scout Bikes, Jump Packers) or boosted in efficiency (Tac squads, Scouts, Termies, Rhinos) to conform with 5th ed mechanics, and that with a greater insight from the game designers since they had more time to playtest and balance it (lol) with these mechanics and the latest 5th ed Codice in hand (Daemons, Orks).

   So since input was asked from non SM players, I'd say as an Eldar player that my main gripe over the new Dex(s) is not that it (they) are overpowered but that they are purely designed with 5th ed metagame in mind, making much of the older (read 1 year back) Codice kinda obsolete on many points which, IMO sux (since many some Codices just got some of their unit choice rendered overcosted and/or inefficient compared to the new metagame), but that's thats how it works and we'll just have to suck it in and wait for new Dexes.

   There are, I believe, some of the main changes that we will see in the coming years for the upcoming Codice - things that began with the Orks and Space Marines ones. (I do not include Daemons in there as in regard to many units and special rules in it, I do not believe that the designers had grasped 5th ed's rules and Codex interactions' subtleties yet when it was designed).

1) Hero Hammer is back, not in the sense that they win games by themselves (though some of the new ICs are quite hard) but it would seem now that ICs are what make or break armies with the last Codices.
   Note that the new high T and or ++Saves/FNP characters break from the last years Codices design by quite a lot. By combining very low saves with good ++ Saves and USR like Eternal Warriors and Feel No Pain the new IC generation are now much harder than anything from older Codices (or their earlier incarnations), where said ICs where designed with weaknesses built in (No ++ Saves come to mind) to compensate their strength - Compare Phoenix Lords, CSM characters and even ICs from DA/BA.

2) With Run, everything is much faster, thus the lowering in pts cost VS efficiency for Transports and traditionally Fast units (Bikes, Jump Packs) - These become cheaper and cheaper/more efficient or there would be no point taking them anymore - Compare to Jump/Bike units in the Eldar, CSM and DE/BA Codices to see what I mean.

3) Cover Saves ignoring weapons are taking a boost (I expect to see more of these in upcoming Codices) as well as Outflanking and Deepstrike capabilities, mainly due to the overall speed most units gained due to the Run rule, making Outflank/Deepstrike less of a game breaking factor since even gunlines would have their opponent in the face faster enough even without these.

   Seems that I finished on what I had to say (long winded isn't?), pray feel free to destroy me now... ;)

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Offline Lazarus

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2008, 11:42:10 AM »
Not overpowered but very competitive as far as I can see. I don't mind facing it for the most part.


A nast list I've been seeng is a white scars list that assaults you on turn 1 with scoutbikers and also dropping pods on your head. If you don't have initiative against this army you might want to use the reserves rule to protect your stuff.

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