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Author Topic: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC  (Read 5102 times)

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Offline Sarkrim

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Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« on: January 15, 2016, 06:39:50 PM »
It's an attempt at using the Pale Courts Battlehost and the craftworld traits to turn a warhost into a pure aspect warrior army that still packs a punch.

Battlehost:

Autarch, Shard of Anaris, Swooping Hawk wings

9 Dire Avengers, Exarch with power weapon and shimmershield

8 Dire Avengers, Exarch with power weapon and shimmershield

8 Dire Avengers, Exarch with Dire Sword and Shuriken Pistol

Auxilary:

Wraithknight, Ghostglaive/Scattershield, 2 Scatterlasers

Aspect Host 1:

5 Warp Spiders, Exarch

5 Warp Spiders, Exarch

5 Warp Spiders, Exarch

Aspect Host 2:

10 Dark Reapers, Starshot Missiles, Exarch

10 Swooping Hawks, Exarch

9 Swooping Hawks, Exarch

The basic idea is a Biel-Tan list and since I've grown tired of jetbikes and to some extend Warp Spiders, I decided to take full advantage of the options the Pale Courts offers.

Potential changes would be to drop the shard on the Autarch and take a power weapon + some other ranged weapon instead. However as he's going to be deep striking with with 10 man Hawk unit, making them fearless is somewhat useful.

The Dark Reapers, 10 might be a tiny case of overkill and it should probably be adjusted down somewhat. As for the DA exarchs, they could be dropped fairly easily I feel, but it just feels wrong to not have exarchs with them when the rest of the army does. As for their choice of weapons, it's what I got models equipped with and we will be going with a very strict wysiwyg. Meaning if the model is not equipped with the gear the list says, it gets removed.

While I have enough anti air between the hawks and potentially the reapers, I would love to be able to find the points to add a Crimson Death for complete and total air superiority. The Wraithknight doesn't need much in terms of comments. He adds a healthy amount of punch to the army and is frankly a fire magnet. Expensive for that yes but outside grav weapons he should still be standing after the first couple of turns.

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2016, 08:02:14 AM »
I love this list Sarkrim. I think you've got everything covered. I wouldn't worry about Crimson Death. Those 2 squads of Hawks with their 18" movement should have you covered with the Dark Reapers as back up. Believe it or not I ran a 10 man squad of Reapers a couple of times. Was it overkill? Probably but they did extremely well. If you did adjust the body count, I'd only go so far as to get an Aegis Defense Line with an Icarus for the Exarch for those Ignore Jink lascannon shots.

You've got infantry melting small arms fire, anti-tank covered by the Hawks, Wraithknight and Spiders. Anti-air duties covered by the Hawks and Reapers as back-up. I think this list is gonna do very well against Battle Company, Grav-Spam and Skyhammer because you just have tons of units with and a lot of wounds.

My only other suggestion would be to add a power spear or power sword to the Swooping Hawk Exarch who's gonna be paired with the Autarch (who could use a power weapon perhaps) just in case you need to move a unit off an objective. That 18" movement with the Autarch and Exarch in there is perfect for removing a combat squad.

Anyway looks good to me man, let us know how it does!
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Offline sunstrider

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 12:42:21 PM »
Yeah my only point of contention in your list is the relative lack of shots in your DIre Avenger squads. Since cover is so abundant these days (at least on the tables on play on), I find the contribution of the shimmershield to be underwhelming compared to even just a Avenger Shuriken Catapult on an Exarch. So if I were you, I'd focus on getting your Dire Avenger squads to full strength first, then focus on upgrades.

Also, I'm curious what your reasoning behind have such large squads of swooping hawks and dark reapers (not that there NEEDS to be strong reasoning or any reasoning behind your choices). The most common ways to employ dark reapers is a small squad of 5 w/exarch+EML and swooping hawks is a small squad of 6 w/exarch. I'd say those are points optimal ways of employing each unit, but certainly not the only ways. Would you say your squad configurations bring something to the table that those don't?

Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 04:21:55 PM »
With regards to the Dire Avengers, the unit sizes are like that due to me not owning more than that of them. It's also why the exarchs are equipped as they are. I tend to play it very strictly wysiwyg and with the hobby budget, for the forseeable future, having been spent on some 30k salamanders I'll have to settle for the 26 Dire Avengers I got.

Now the reapers and hawks, I got the feel that they should probably be adjusted down in size, although the sheer amount of shots coming from all 3 units should help put a dent in something or someone. My main issue is that I've already spent my 1 duplicate formation allowed in ITC on the 2 aspect hosts. So I can't just add a third one, as much as I'd like to and I don't know what else to spend the points on. It's too little to add a seer council and all other formations are just too many points to fit in as the army looks now. Granted I could add a phoenix lord as I do own a few of them, I just don't know if they would actually add anything useful to the army.


Offline Ibushi

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 04:23:48 PM »
Interesting stuff, look forward to seeing how they do on the tabletop!

My immediate feedback would be that if the Autarch is with the hawks, at least give him a ranged weapon as well -- he still keeps his pistol, so no lost attacks or anything.

Running the hawks in big squads like that is fine really, they will take casualties for sure, so may as well.

In terms of the units though, I would suggest breaking the Reapers into 2x5 and rolling the spiders into 2 squads, so you end up with 2x spider, 2x reaper, 2x hawk.

With the Avengers, definitely drop the exarchs and max out the body count. Honestly it may be worth just subbing the Spiders for the Avengers as the core units, and taking a Dire Avenger Shrine as a separate detachment (not within the Pale Courts Warhost) to get them BS5 and Killing Strike, as they are SO good.

Lastly, may as well drop the scatter lasers on the WK, as if he is out of charge range you'll want to run him 6", but if he is in charge range, scatter lasers are not going to change anything. In fact, they may just cause enough casualties to take you out of range or cause a morale check, which would suck.

All I can say is there certainly will be a lot of casualties playing this list -- hopefully on both sides!

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Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 11:24:52 AM »
So I brought a slightly modified version of the list to a tournament yesterday. Short version: It works, however it needs some adjustments and I need a LOT more games with it to iron out the kinks.

I ended up bringing this:

Pale Courts battlehost (craftworld traits: Aspect Lord-shrine & Halls of Martial Splendour)

Autarch
Mandiblasters, Power Sword, Avenger Shuriken Catapult, Swooping Hawk wings

8 Dire Avengers
8 Dire Avengers
7 Dire Avengers

Aspect Host 1:

5 Dark Reapers, starshot & starswarm missiles
Exarch, reaper launcher, starshot & starswarm missiles
8 Warp Spiders
Exarch
9 Warp Spiders
Exarch

Aspect Host 2:
5 Dark Reapers, starshot & starswarm missiles
Exarch, reaper launcher, starshot & starswarm missiles
8 Swooping Hawks
Exarch, Power sword, Sunrifle
8 Swooping Hawks
Exarch

Wraith Construct:
Wraithknight, Ghostglaive, Scattershield

It was a lot more fun to play than a more usual jetbike/warp spider list. Which is exactly what the other eldar players brought along.

I did get my ass handed to me by a Necron decurion list with 2 harvest formations but it's mostly down to him being a vastly better player than me and the maelstrom objectives screwing me over hard in the first 2 turns. With him getting 2 points in each turn and me getting 0, it makes it hard to mount a proper comeback. Highlight of the game was my wraithknight taking 5 wounds and then getting assaulted by 5 wraiths (2 units), a destroyer lord and his warlord overlord. The wraithknight proceeded to calmly dismantle all of them without dying. Only to die to immortals shooting the second it go out of combat again. But hey it survived things it had no right to survive.

The other loss was a combination of me playing like a sack of bricks, I was losing concentration at that point sadly and it showed in my decision making, and the dice utterly hating me. Wraithknight with 3+ cover couldn't roll enough saves to prevent it dying on turn 1 without ever getting to murder something. Along with so many other whiffed rolls and the damnable objective secured in a battle company, it was an uphill struggle from the start.

Last game, or first really, was against a nid list with nothing but big scary monsters, including a barbed hierodule. He could not handle the speed of my army or the sheer amount of firepower I could put into those big things. It didn't help him that my knight charged that hierodule and proceeded to 1shot it with a roll of a 6. Admittedly the knight then completely failed to kill a single carnifex which killed it. Think I need to have a word about that.

Overall it was a fun day, even with the losses and I will definitely keep playing this list or some variation of it to get better with it and get it finetuned to where it can beat necrons and battle companies!


Offline sunstrider

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 12:19:03 PM »
Yeah it's unfortunate you weren't better able to deal with the battle company. With all of the shuriken catapults and deathspinners, even rolling a below average number of 6s to wound, you would have been dicing up space marines left and right.

From what you said in your explanations of your games, your dependence on the wraithknight is a bit high. Just keep in mind the different the war aspects are extremely powerful when employed correctly. And with aspects like dire avengers, warp spiders and dark reapers, it isn't hard to put them in a situation that their aspect favors.

From what I read, you didn't mention your swooping hawks or autarch at all. How did they perform? Do you think the shard would have helped you out in the games you were playing? The halls of martial splendour coupled with the shard is utterly devastating, so I'd keep that in mind for future versions of the list.

Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 12:56:56 PM »
I depend on my knight to serve as a distraction for the most part and do it's job by soaking up silly amounts of firepower. Which it did to great effect to be honest. Reason I didn't really mention the hawks, against the battle company is that they got annihilated by a unit of centurions. hurricane Bolters and grav cannons hurts no matter who you are.

The other 2 games they performed as I expected them to, they were a threat all over the battlefield and took out a few key targets, including some tomb blades that utterly failed to kill a dark reaper exarch. ;)

Yes I should have been carving up those marines with little to no effort but everything just went wrong for me. I chalk it up to being too tired to focus properly on target priorities and such. Or rather I killed marines easily enough, the issue was that I couldn't kill enough units fast enough to avoid getting shreded in return. Again, target priorities got a little messed up, so I'll have to work on that. Thankfully the space marine player is from my club so I can just grab him for a rematch.

The shard on the autarch is something I'm going to have to give a few field tests as I attempt to refine the list for future tournament use. It could become a go to combination, there's definitely potential in it.

I completely forgot he gets to reroll misses when in a challenge! <insert language that would make a sailor blush here> That could actually have made a difference at one point I think.

Offline sunstrider

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 01:43:30 PM »
Yeah battle companies can make it hard to know what to target first since there are so many tactical squads for ablative wounds and threat generation. But if you can target things like heavy bolter devastator squads/hurricane bolter centurions, the warrior aspects could easily overwhelm a battle company.

But the one issue with aspect centric lists is long range fire support. Not necessarily something to include in your lists, more of a fact of playing with that style army (I would know, I run into it enough myself). Perhaps including more dark reapers in the next version could address this issue?

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 01:48:52 PM »
Reapers are the ultimate answer for MEQ armies. You can always have a few Aspect Host Detachments and have them allocated for what you'll use it for. <BS +1 or WS +1>

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Offline Lyonic

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2016, 10:19:59 PM »
You cannot have dire avengers as the aspect choice for the aspect lord shrine. It clearly states that in the rules.

Also, if you take the aspect lord shrine of something else, you can ONLY use aspects of the same type in your army. Again clearly stated.
 

You will get away with it because its an obscure book but if I was a list checker id reject it.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 10:21:26 PM by Lyonic »

Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2016, 01:08:19 AM »
What is says is that you have to pick 3 units from the same aspect and it has to be the same aspect across all *battlehosts* (key word) you're free to take whatever aspects you choose outside those battlehosts and since I only have 1 battlehosts I fulfill that requirement.

As for not being allowed to bring dire avengers. It says you're not allowed to bring a dire avenger shrine *unless* you have chosen dire avengers as the battlehosts choice. Again not a problem as I have chosen those and haven't brought a dire avenger shrine anyway. The Lord aspect shrine does in no way limit you to a single aspect across your entire army. It limits what you can bring if you were to take more than 1 pale courts battlehosts but that isn't the case here as all other aspect warriors are in aspect host formations.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 01:21:04 AM by Sarkrim »

Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2016, 06:58:48 PM »
Instead of making a new thread and since it's still relating to the Pale Courts and ITC, I'll throw it in here.

I've learned a few things in relation to 40k this week:

a) I *hate* losing repeatedly, my record for this year so far is 2/0/8.

b) I dislike playing jetbikes and warp spiders as much as I do losing, I know it's a powerful combination and it can win games due to it's extreme mobility and high strength shooting.

So with that in mind and after a small "I quit this stupid game" crisis, something had to change in my approach to the game.

My craftworld of choice as always been Biel-Tan, as I love aspect warriors and they tend to field a lot more of them than other craftworlds. In the tournament last weekend, I found an aspect warrior heavy list to be a lot more fun to play. So much fun in fact that I suspect my jetbikes won't be leaving their shelf for a very long time, outside one of the guys in my club specifically asking me to bring them to get some practise against them.

Where is this going? Well I need to learn how to use my army a lot better, as my 2016 record shows, admittedly one of the losses was due to me completely messing up deployment and having a brainfart against a skyhammer annihilation force... But I digress, what I aim to do is create a core Pale Courts Battlehost that the rest of my army is built around.

My problem is what aspect to use with the Aspect Lord-shrine craftworld trait. I'm thinking to use Dark Reapers as they can function perfectly fine in small units and add a lot of threat to quite a few things. They'll keep battle companies and other eldar armies honest unless they love to lose lots of stuff to multiple units of reapers doing what they do best. On top of that is the Wraithknight, the melee version of it, and a farseer for warlord and some buffs where needed.

So the core would look like this:

Farseer, jetbike, singing spear (120 pts)

5 Dark Reapers, starshot missiles (165 pts)

4 Dark Reapersm, starshot missiles (132 pts)

4 Dark Reapersm, starshot missiles (132 pts)

Wraithknight, Ghostglaive & Scattershield (295 pts)

A core of 844 points in total, we usually play 1850 points, so just over 1000 points left to spend.

What I'm thinking of adding for the first game testing this is this:

Avatar (195 pts)

Aspect Host:

7 Swooping Hawks, Exarch (122 pts)

7 Swooping Hawks, Exarch (122 pts)

7 Warp Spiders, Exarch (143 pts)

Aspect Host:

8 Howling Banshees, Exarch with Executioner (124 pts)

8 Howling Banshees, Exarch with Executioner (124 pts)

8 Striking Scorpions, Exarch with Scorpion Claw (176 pts)

Bringing the total to 1850 exactly. Now for the reasoning behind those units and the avatar.

The Farseer will roll for invis a couple of times, if I get it on the first roll, I'll switch to Divination for Prescience or Perfect Timing or Runes of Fate for Fortune and possibly Doom. Swapping things I don't want or need out for guide. It really comes down to what I'm playing against for the later rolls, but Telepathy is the number 1 target as I got a few things that needs protection badly.

Which brings me to the Avatar, the presence of one of those walking bundles of sunshine and rainbows will boost the melee aspect host and the Wraithknight to frankly obscene levels of efficiency in combat. But only if it actually survives turn 1, hences the need for invis and other protection powers. Of course I'll get exactly one chance to use him against a single player, because as soon as they see what he adds to the army, he becomes the priority target for sure. A bit pricey for a fire magnet, but I'l trying to threat overload so they either have to focus everything on one target or attempt to take out multiple targets.

Enter the sword wielding mad construct. Those towering monstrosities attract fire like moths to a candle, but at least he can take some with the invul save and FnP or whatever cover save he might have. At any rate he'll follow the Banshees and Avatar across the table at the highest possible speed and together they'll hopefully slam into the other army on turn 2, 3 at the latest. Which leaves the Scorpions, depending on what I'll be facing they got a few options; Infiltrate them right up in the face of the opponent or let them hang back and protect the back field from any funny business. I'm leaning towards having them infiltrate into some nice cover so they can take advantage of stealth/shrouded. Unless I'm facing a decent amount of high ap, ignoring cover shooting, I'm looking at you Tau.

That leaves the Hawks and Spiders, they can start on the table and get across easily due to their high mobility. I'd prefer to deep strike the hawks though and take advantage of the grenade pack for added damage and then drown the target in laser fire. The Spiders can make short work of nearly everything that has an initiative value but they really excel at hunting monstrous creatures with high toughness values. Leave it to the eldar to have a near perfect counter to Wraithknights, outside grav weapons anyway.

But really the Spiders can roam and destroy any target that present itself to them and get safely out of there in most cases. Even though ITC limits their Flickerjumps to once per turn they're still one of the, if not the most, mobile units in the game and next to impossible to lock down outside just killing them.

It'll be a longer proces to learn how to play this aspect heavy footslogging style, but I'm cautiously optimistic in my ability to get the hang of it as I really do enjoy it. Something I can't say about the Jetbikes/Warp Spiders combo, which definitely shows in my games with them.

Thoughts, comments or namecalling for wasting your time with so many words? Comments can both be on the list itself or the reasoning behind it or both or neither really.

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 11:40:09 AM »
Hey buddy. I'm just gonna be brutally honest with you as you said you hate losing and are 2-8 and at the moment. I love all of the units you selected and they all have a place in a "Take All Comers" list but there is too much redundancy with 3x Reapers, 16+ Banshees AND Scorpions. That is an enormous points sink. These are all middle of the road units, utility specialists that are being called upon to carry your army and its way too much to ask of them.

I know you said you dont want to run laser bikes, but at this points bikes are now the workhorse of the army and anything else is really handicapping yourself when playing against other top tier codices like Space Marines, Tau, Necrons or the new Space Wolves. Against other codices you can get away with Guardians, Dire Avengers (or even sprinkling them in with some bikes). Running 3x3 Laser Bikes (or cannons if you really want) is by no means running cheese especially if its balanced out by units like Scorpions and what not.

Just an example of a fun balanced but competitive list this is what I ran yesterday and to great success.

Autarch- Firesabre, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun
Farseer- Jetbike
Warlock- Jetbike
Jetbikes x3- Scatter Lasers x3
Jetbikes x3- Scatter Lasers x3
Jetbikes x3- Scatter Lasers x3
Nightwing
Hornets x2- Pulse Lasers x4
Hornets x1- Pulse Lasers x2

-Aspect Host-
Fire Dragons x5- Exarch
Warp Spiders x8- Exarch: Power Blades
Scorpions x10- Exarch: Scorpions Claw

Now you can swap out those hornets and the Nightwing for more aspect warriors like Hawks, and some Banshees very easily and still have points to spare, all the while having a great shooting core that can compete with anything.

Anyway thats just my advice... when I see Eldar players handicapping themselves I try to jump in and voice a strong opinion because all the other guys I play against have no problem including Drop-Centurions, Skyhammer, Thunderwolf Spam, Necron decurions etc. There's nothing wrong with taking a good strong core and then supporting it with a good strong presence of Aspect Warriors. That just my 2cents man let me know what you think!
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Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 01:10:01 PM »
It's not that I just don't want to play jetbikes, I actually hate playing that style. So no I won't be using jetbikes at all. Also I don't agree that not using them is handcapping yourself. Remove them from the codex for a moment and the rest of the troop choices, or any of the aspect warriors really in terms of the battlehost, will be close to an auto include in any other codex.

The fact that the jetbikes got a buff they really didn't need in terms of number of heavy weapons, doesn't change the fact that the rest of the troop section is just as good. They just require a different play style to the JSJ of the bikes.

I feel I'm handicapping myself by forcing myself into playing a style I dislike so much I'd rather sell off my army and just focus on my 30k Salamanders, than play again. Why? Because it's sucking all the fun out of playing the game for me. I don't have to win every single time I play a game of 40k, I just want to get to a point where I get comfortable enough playing a footdar list that I can win against space marines and such on a regular basis.

That is, if Nuffle permits and my dice haven't decided to hate me that day.

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2016, 02:38:31 PM »
Hey man to each their own. If you are dedicated to playing a Footdar go for it. My only other suggestion is try out the Avenger shrine because it has the range, firepower that'll melt even a Stormsurge when they use their old school bladestorm plus the battle-focus which'll keep them alive.

Other than that I still think you have over-committed to niche units. The Avatar, Banshees, Scorpions, Hawks and Reapers are all great specialist tools but I think you need either a more resilient or more hard-hitting firebase to support them. 13 Dark Reapers spread across only 3 small units and the Warp Spiders in support is extremely light amount of shooting in todays game.

Footdar can certainly get the job done I think the base of your army needs to be very strong to do so. Again I think Avengers in maxed out squads are the perfect choice, they've got how powered offense, flexibility, speed and the body count especially in a warhost.
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Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2016, 03:19:22 PM »
I will be trying out the shrine, just need to get a few extra dire avengers home first. The list I posted is merely a first draft that will see some action next Saturday followed by me picking it a part to see what worked and what needs changing. It's a part of the ongoing "quest" to find a solid core to base most (every?) future list around. It's just a bit Dire Avenger intensive to bring maxed out squads in both the battlehost and the shrine, not quite at the number needed for it just yet.

I'm hoping the melee part of the list will be a big enough sledgehammer to make the guy I'm playing think twice about even touching the shooting part of the army. And yes I'm aware it's very light on shooting, it's sort on purpose. On purpose in keeping the cost of the reapers down, man do they cost an arm and a leg each. I might end up dropping a unit of hawks for more spiders or reapers, as those are really the shooting aspects.

May in the future invest in some shining spears, if I can figure out a proper use of them. Not having hit & run does suck and limits their uses.

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2016, 08:10:19 PM »
Dark reapers are pretty kick ass. They will wreck anykind of bike or jink saving thing at cery long range. They also get another chance at snapfiring against flyers. I have been using them in combo with an aegis with the ammunition dump as part of an aspect host. They suck at apTerminator sure, but that's why we have star cannons etc. I really feel banshees are one of the worst units in the codex for us atm. Its the str that's the problem. I did a comparison on another forum ages ago that broke everything down because i really wanted them to work but they just don't. I would try and go scatter bikes if u arnt killing ap terminator with banshees because sxatbokes rek MEQ.

Offline haunt

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 07:08:13 PM »
I agree with you Lyonic on Reapers. Banshees are a bit fenced for me, since you'll use them with a list that they can benefit for a S+1 buff. This way they'll be effective and can shatter the morale of your opponent.
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Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Pale Courts Warhost 1850 ITC
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2016, 03:55:33 AM »
I wish getting a Spiritseer with runes of battle wouldn't cramp the banshees style (losing their acrobatic ability) as much as it does. Because that +1 strength power would be a godsend on them. It does help them a great deal to (hopefully) have an Avatar nearby at least in the first round of combat. Which is what matters with them, they really should break or destroy their target in the first round to avoid getting bogged down in an unending combat.

I got a few training games this weekend and I might end up bringing a few different lists, including Reapers as "core" and one with Dire Avengers. Need to work out a) how to most effectively use the Avengers and b) if the core might just have to be straight up guardians and then pump more points into the aspect hosts/Dire Avenger Shrine.

But this is why you have training games afterall.

 


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