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Author Topic: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?  (Read 849 times)

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Offline Lord Commissar Spiteful

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Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« on: May 11, 2008, 11:44:05 AM »
Mine don't do squat.

If you use flamers and they are actually worth the measly few points that they cost (i don't think that they are) how do you get the most out of them? Where do you put them, and would you consider them worthwhile?

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Offline Jonik

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 11:46:34 AM »
I've just taken the flamers in my SWSs out, and am glad I did so.

Other than the inferno cannon, and the drop SWSs, I've only ever used one in my cc HQ, and there it did nothing too.

So in my oppinion, they're not worthwhile.

Then again, I'm sure they're worth the extra points in conscripts, and any assualting guardman platoons (with no HWs). But I've never tried them...
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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 12:00:41 PM »
They do alot for me.

Maybe you are not using the right ratio in your guys' flamer tanks ;)

I have 2 in my HQ Command Sqd so before I charge into close combat, I could at least take down one enemy trooper.

I would use them agasint light infantry like Orks or Nids.

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Offline wper34

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 12:04:33 PM »
I love them...

Back when I had an IG army of my own, I used to play around with flamers a lot. I am quite aware that a lot of IG players don't put them much into their armies (other than playing cityfight), but I guess they just don't know the real value of how to use such weps to their advantage. That or they simply prefer other spec weps or simply find flamers not suiting their style of playing.

But for me, I use them extensively and would continue to do so no matter what. (Even with the changes to 5th Edition) I remember posting a fair chunks of ideas about how to use flamers to your advantages a while ago. Let me see if I can find them...

EDIT

Found them! I cut out certain chunks in the quotes from my original posts as they are not relevant to this topic.

This one below is mainly about flamers in Infantry Squads & very rough concept of tactical application:

OK, I have a few disagreements with others regarding the HB + Flamer combo in Infantry Squads...

I'm also not a fan of flamers in squads with heavy weapons, I'd use grenade launchers myself.

To each of his own... :) Although I would not entirely overlook the use of any hvy weps with flamers.

The flamers are indeed very short-range which tend to not go very well with hvy weps, but the unit with such configuration would be geared toward multi-role (close-range counter-assault & tactical long-range shooting). This, in return, provides the army with a degree of tactical flexibility which can be crucial when it comes to units' deployment & movement of the whole army (focus on placement of firepower & counter assault elements) as battle progress.

I wouldn't recommend combining heavy bolters and flamers, for although they have the same role (anti-infantry) you will never be able to use them at the same time.  Better to field the flamer without a heavy weapon or combine it with a lascannon - that way you can shoot tanks from a distance, or infantry when they get close.

Actually, the flamer itself can be combined with any types of hvy wep. You probably think that, since Lascans (long-range Anti-tank) and Flamers (short-range counter-assault & Anti-horde) are totally different in terms of their nature/usage, they would make a good combo, as in the unit can concentrate on either of these two tasks. In return, this results in high unit role-efficiency from this focus. Plus the combo also provides the army with multi-role units. (and tactical flexibility)

Yes, I would agree that the idea to such approach itself is a good one to consider. However, I don't entirely agree that flamers should only be used with Lascans only.

===========================================

It is in my opinion that flamers can be still be used with any types of hvy wep. This would depend on where or which units the configuration is adopted/used on. Infantry squads are one of the good places for this combo, as they are likely to be used as frontline units. The infantry squads can continue fire their hvy weps at their preferable targets from the range larger than 24". The flamer firepower would be indeed be wasted, but this is no different for other spec weps when the units shoot at targets more than 24" away. Besides, flamers are also fairly cheap.

Even though flamers would only become more effective when enemy CC/Assault units come close to you, I would suggest don't let this idea entirely get to you. (Again, flamers are cheap) Even if flamers may not get to be used, but they can provide you with a number of things:

1. Security in dealing with situations at close-range quarter with reliable firepower. (auto-hit anyone? And eat through light armours of 5+) Sometimes, your specialised or units geared specifically for counter-assault may not be able to move or make it in time to help the front line troops. This is where flamers come in handy by distribution of such weps into other units would give you a degree of counter-assault elements throughout the army.

2. Psychological threat to the enemy CC/Assault units - The presence of flamers themselves can cause the enemy to be uncertain about whether they should attack units with such wep or not. If yes, they would have to do it quickly & swiftly not to let us shoot more flamers. If no, we can continue on shooting at them with mid-to-long firepower.

3. Army & Tactical planning - Flamers can be used to draw invisible lines of "Kill Zones" where we can bring down lots of their number quickly. (Even though it is at close-range) Use of multiple units with flamers can help to this. (particularly the ones that are fairly resilient like conscripts) Just imagine a line of front troops all armed with flamers. That sure would scare away most infantry units to be up real close to you.

Specialised units can also be used with great effects. Your only main concern is how to keep them alive from enemy long-range shooty units. (avoid LOS or eliminate them quickly with mass hvy weps. Preferably with dedicated units like hvy wep teams.)

If you are skillful enough at range-determining & unit maneuvering (also wise casualty removal helps to deny enemy assault), you are guaranteed to be able to shoot at least one round with flamer. Additionally, you may even get to use flamers multiple times in a role, if you are organised & conduct decisive order of shooting sequences through co-operation between many IG units which can effectively deny enemy assault. (As a result, able to use flamers more.)

Just some ideas to think about... (Also please note that I won't have time to discuss about this issue throughly within the next couple of weeks. Uni works. :()

===========================================

Anyway, to sum up, I personally would advice keeping the HB + Flamer unit. In fact, I might even suggest putting a few more flamers into other units since there is no way that you can place all of your counter-assault elements where you want or really needed when such situation arises, given the size of your army in terms of manpower. (Maybe 2-3 Infantry Squads with flamer should do.)

So you might as well distribute some throughout your army. Besides, you cannot totally rely on the Hvy Bolter teams when there are lots of cover for the enemy to use & walk about.

And this one below is for Flamers in Armoured Fist Squads (But note that its principles can be applied to any Mechanised Infantry units armed with flamers):

I think I will just tell you some ideas about the way I would arm my own AF squad for now rather than going into deep details of all possible tactics & unit composition I could think of. (Well, I did a bit of works on Armour Fist Squad Tactica.)

=======================================

Flamer (And a bit of tactics from me since I personally like putting a flamer into AF squad. ;D)

Flaming Tank Shock

Use this as a combo with Tank Shock ability from chimera by having the vehicle to clump up members of enemy infantry unit and release our passengers to roast them. Note that this tactic can only be used when the AF squad is already in the transport at the start of your movement phase.

Anyway, LOS gained from chimera can provide a degree of protection to AF squad from other enemy units in long range. However, pay attention to the direction and models with AT weps when you tank shock. (as they could blow the vehicle up, if they pass their leadership test)

This is particularly effective on the horde units like Orks mob of 20+ boyz or Nids gaunt as this tactic could be used to break formation of the horde unit into half for which the AF squad could concentrate on destroying one half while the other half could be taken care by other units. If the chimera is actually armed with 2 Hvy Flamers, this whole unit of AF squad would be deadly against almost any kind of infantry. (In fact, scarier than a Hellhound.)

If, however, the enemy unit failed their leadership test & start running away instead, you are free to choose whether to release the passengers (Well, they won't get to engage close-range gunfight at that unit unless there are other enemy units nearby) or not based on the situation itself. So do take this in account before attempting this tactic.

Roasting Infiltrator/Troops in cover

AF squad is a good unit for roasting enemy infantry in cover. With the speed of chimera and freedom of flamer placement & mass rapid firing lasguns, AF squad could take of infantry in cover swiftly. Particularly useful to discourage enemy units to infiltrate near your army or force them to think carefully about their movement with the presence of rapid response unit with a template wep.

=======================================

Response Team (Improved Comm)

Such unit could also be put into Reserves in the case where you decide to have this unit as part of your counter tactic when facing an assaulty/aggressive army. (Where they will definitely come for you) AF squad can definitely provide the army with quick placement of manpower into the location you want (since they come from reserves, you choose where you want them to be from your edge of deployment zone) as well as LOS element for tactical purpose. (from chimera)

Note that if you decide to adopt this tactic, it is a good idea to put an Improved Comm on the chimera to take advantage of increasing your chance to either delaying the unit come in (at least to turn 3-4) or getting them in as early as possible (on turn 2) when needed.

That's about what I could find now... They are actually just parts from my Tacticas about how to use flamers in IG effectively.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 12:28:01 PM by wper34 »

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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 02:02:37 PM »
In small numbers, yes.  In large numbers, no.  Often only a single squad will perform perfectly well since they can get overlooked. 

Overload on Flamers and your opponant may just decide he doesn't want to get into a close range firefire with you at all.

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Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 02:39:27 PM »
If you are playing a bunker mission, or there is a significant amount of cover, then they are quite good, but other wise, I find it easier to jsut spend a little more to get plasma or 'nade launchers.


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Offline IGBunker (-Hela - Finnail-)

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 06:32:32 PM »
i have also used flamers to great success. i normaly put 3 in a command squad and run around burning things ;D. I am currently messing around with my list and adding plasma to my 2 platoon command squads while my comapny command squad still has guant, milo and 2 flamers for some anti horde power. Im also adding rem squads w flamers to my tanith list
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Offline Black Hawk

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2008, 07:10:45 PM »
Like igbunker, I have much success with my flamers. In my Tanith Assault Teams and Infantry Squads. I have a variety of weapons though. With my early days with a normal Imperial Guard Army, I deployed hundreds of drop troopers with flamers when in a city fighting Orks, Tyranids, and even Eldar. It just matters where you choose to burn stuff.

Offline ColonelLindsay

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2008, 07:17:15 PM »
I usually outfit most of my squads with flamers. the advantages and disadvantages can be weighed (by me at least) as such;

Good:
Orks
Imperial guard
Tyranids

The reasons for these troops are; large numbers, low toughness. When you have auto hit and usually only need 3's to hit and possibly no armour save on most, it becomes obvious why you need them.

Bad:
Space Marines (all forms)
Necrons
Tau
Sisters of Battle

The reasons for these are the exact opposite, low numbers, higher toughness. It makes no sense to bring them along (I've tried and it failed miserably) the better opposite for thisis bringing along a grenade launcher and firing Krak grenades. you might not take down manybut have a much higher chance of killing at least one. If possible bring plasma and melta too, although these are much more expensive (in points and actually money)
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2008, 09:06:10 PM »
Actually, I think Flamers are perfectly decent against Marines and the like.  Not as effective, obviously, as against Tyranids or Orks, but still reasonable.  Get six hits and on average you'll get a single kill - more then making up the cost of the Flamer (though, it must be said, not the cost of the whole unit).

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Offline ColonelLindsay

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2008, 11:39:35 PM »
well obviously not for the larger tyranids and orks, but the smaller ones, with largernumbers they work great
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Offline Mr.Vincent

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 01:04:02 AM »
I get either a lot of value out of flamers or hardly any,depending on the scenario.I currentlyplay a cityfight themed army with a lot of flamers.And I mean a lot.The big advantage is there's no roll to hit.
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Offline Cpt. Banjo

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 02:27:10 AM »
They're awesome weapons.

I like to spam them so that I can keep them on hand for those intimate moments, like when you've got a bunch of dudes sitting balls in the wind. I'll run them with a heavy weapon (most likely a ML, HB or AC) and use whichever suits the situation.

You won't get to use the flamer and heavy weapon at the same time in most instances, but they've proven a nasty surprise in the past.

And, best of all, they're dirt cheap.

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Offline pudd

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Re: Do you get any value out of your Flamers?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 11:36:53 PM »
I run 3 flamers in a deepstriking special weapons squad and they do really well if they land correctly.
I had a squad take out 5 elder pathfinders one turn, 4 the next and 2 the turn after that. The guardsmen were also being shot at by the pathfinders which made it less easy to burn them because of reducing numbers. The battle finished after that as we ran out of time but I'm sure they SWS would have been killed not long after but they made back over 3 times their points in a few turns.

 


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