Topic: 2000 pts Alaitoc for local tournament

[Scorn]

Local 2000 point tournament coming up, wanted to try something a bit different...ended up deciding on an all-infantry Alaitoc aspect host. 

Major factors that went into this decision:
-I've got all of these models, most of them assembled and painted
-Aspect Warriors are awesome
-I desperately want Asurmen to be worth it, an invulnerable save bubble sounds so awesome, but has been kinda lacklustre when I've dropped him into lists, so now I'm building one around him
-By taking no vehicles, monsters, ghost warriors etc I've got way more bodies than I usually do (my Guardian horde is unpainted and not currently fit to grace the tabletop), considering the potential for stacked penalties to hit for my opponent and/or invulnerable saves on the Reapers and Avengers I'm hoping a lot of heavy enemy firepower is going to be wasted

Craftworld Attribute:  Alaitoc, Fieldcraft for all detachments.

Detachment 1: Battalion
HQ
Illic Nightspear
Spiritseer with Quicken/Restrain and the Shiftshround of Alanssair

Troops:
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers

Elites:
9 Fire Dragons including Exarch with firepike


Detachment 2:  Battalion
HQ
Farseer with Singing Spear, Guide, Doom
Asurmen

Troops
10 Dire Avengers including Exarch with two Avenger shuriken catapults
10 Dire Avengers including Exarch with two Avenger shuriken catapults
9 Dire Avengers including Exarch with two Avenger shuriken catapults


Detachment 3:  Spearhead
HQ
Spiritseer with Protect/Jinx

Heavy Support
10 Dark Reapers including Exarch with tempest launcher
3 Dark Reapers including Exarch with reaper launcher
3 Dark Reapers including Exarch with reaper launcher
3 Dark Reapers including Exarch with reaper launcher


Detachment 4:  Outrider
HQ:
Spiritseer with Conceal/Reveal

Fast Attack:
5 Swooping Hawks including Exarch with lasblaster
5 Swooping Hawks including Exarch with lasblaster
5 Warp Spiders including Exarch with two death spinners

Total:  2000 points

Command Points 3 base + 8 for detachments for 11 total
Warlord trait I haven't settled on, either Puritanical Leader to keep the large unit of Dark Reapers, and the Dire Avengers from running away, or Seer of the Shifting Vector on whichever psyker seems most important.

Basic Plan:
I'm going to be giving up the +1 for finishing deployment first but I'm okay with that. The Rangers, Illic, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Spiritseer with the relic and the Fire Dragons (via Webway Strike) will be going in to reserve. So I'll hopefully get a feel for my opponent's deployment before I have to commit many real resources. Rangers will deploy to push back enemy deep striking from the Dark Reaper/Dire Avenger firebase.

Farseer and the 10 strong Dark Reaper squad hang out together in a good line of sight position to make use of the Forewarned strategem to delete incoming deep strikers et al.

Fire Dragons deploy at the 9-12" from my any scary armour and get Quickening from the Swiftshroud carrying Spiritseer to get within melta range.  The Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders back them up and to complete crowd control.  If I can after the Fire Dragons shoot I'll use the Fire and Fade stratagem to fall back and get behind the Hawks and/or Spiders as they can Fly out of combat the following turn.

19 Dark Reapers form a firebase screen by 29 Dire Avengers, Asurmen and the seers buffing them defensively to minimize casualties.  I'll make use of Lightning Fast Reactions as needed to keep Dark Reapers alive.

Asurmen is my one man counter-attack, if any enemy dregs or remnants get close to my lines.  The Dark Reapers and Dire Avengers form a peculiar firebase as they can stay mobile with no decrease in damage output though sometimes they just end up hugging cover.

One Farseer and three Spiritseers gives decent psychic defence.  Horde control comes from Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, even Dark Reapers on starswarm missile mode if necessary.

Anyway, that's the plan, let me know what you all think.  I've got until early February to sort this all out.

[bca11]

I think your strategy is solid with one exception- I'm not sure about footslogging fire dragons. Admittedly I have yet to field them like that in 8th, but I see them probably ending up a suicide unit unless you spend CP's that might be more useful elsewhere. Do you have war walkers with bright lances? That might not be quite as effective as a full squad of dragons against vehicles, but you can keep them behind your troops screen and take advantage of their greater range. It's also cheaper.

I've had good luck with Asurmen, but it's been pointed out to me that the 4++ isn't as great as it used to me, as most small arms aren't going to affect the DA saves anyway. It might just be better to have another squad of dire avengers (with points to spare). By all means try it, but pay attention over the course of the games and try to make a mental note of just how often you use the 4++. If it's extremely rare, you might consider a change.

Last thing - you probably need to reorganize, as you have too many detachments for a 2,000 points tournament. Check page 214 of your rulebook (at the bottom).

Good luck.

[Blazinghand]

I think the fire dragon unit is using Webway Strike to deploy.

Typically you are, for Battle forged armies, capped at 3 detachments for a 2000 pt army.

[Scorn]

The Fire Dragons deploy via Webway Strike with the Spiritseer with the Swiftshroud to hopefully throw Quicken on to them to get into half melta range.

Good point on the three detachment limit, I can roll the Outrider into one of the battalions, will just be down a command point.

[SeekingOne]

This is a very good list, like it a lot.

One thing that concerns me is Reapers deployed on the table. Do you have a plan for keeping them alive in case you don't get 1st turn? Did you already try this deployment in actual games?

[bca11]

This is a very good list, like it a lot.

One thing that concerns me is Reapers deployed on the table. Do you have a plan for keeping them alive in case you don't get 1st turn? Did you already try this deployment in actual games?

He could potentially deploy out of sight and pop out when he's ready. If I'm reading their rules correctly, they suffer no penalty for moving and firing, so why not keep them mobile and take advantage of LOS. Keep a farseer nearby and any unit that drops in to try and surprise them from behind has to live through a round of fire from the reapers (forewarned) before doing any damage.

[Blazinghand]

You could also spend CPs to start them in reserve if you're up against an army with strong alpha strike. They don't suffer any penalty for move+shoot basically, so that is an option.

[Scorn]

Deployment plans will vary depending on opponent.  Dark Reapers will be the last of my units deployed to try to have seen as much of the opposing forces as possible.

If the risk is low (assault based army) or even moderate (low volume of shots long range shooty army) all the Reapers can start on the board.  The small units will hug cover and line of sight blocking terrain.  The large unit, will try and grab cover but I'm counting on burning Lightning Fast Reactions on them on Turn 1. They'll also have the invulnerable from Asurmen, which will help against plasma and the like.

If the risk is high then the 10 strong Reaper squad goes into Webway Strike along with the Fire Dragons.

Once I've had a turn I'll be throwing Protect and Conceal on the big squad of Reapers most turns.  Between the Fieldcraft bonus and that I'm hoping to keep them alive.

Testing starts over the holidays.  I've got a game lined up with an Astra Militarum playing buddy, so we'll see how that goes.

[SeekingOne]

If the risk is low (assault based army) or even moderate (low volume of shots long range shooty army) all the Reapers can start on the board.  The small units will hug cover and line of sight blocking terrain.  The large unit, will try and grab cover but I'm counting on burning Lightning Fast Reactions on them on Turn 1. They'll also have the invulnerable from Asurmen, which will help against plasma and the like. If the risk is high then the 10 strong Reaper squad goes into Webway Strike along with the Fire Dragons.

Good point about 10-strong squad. In fact, AP -4 is fairly rare, and if Reapers hug cover, they'll be saving on 5+ vs AP -3 anyway. So Asurmen's 5++ won't be that critical. The combination of -2 to hit and 2+ save from cover would make a unit really durable.

However, it's the 3-strong squads that are most vulnerable, as you won't want to burn Lightning-fast reflexes on them. The most important thing is to find LoS-blocking cover for all three squads. If that is done, the game is mostly yours.

Once I've had a turn I'll be throwing Protect and Conceal on the big squad of Reapers most turns.  Between the Fieldcraft bonus and that I'm hoping to keep them alive.

That goes without question.

Testing starts over the holidays.  I've got a game lined up with an Astra Militarum playing buddy, so we'll see how that goes.

AM are among the strongest opponents overall, it will be a good test. Please let us know how it goes!

[Scorn]

Good point about 10-strong squad. In fact, AP -4 is fairly rare, and if Reapers hug cover, they'll be saving on 5+ vs AP -3 anyway. So Asurmen's 5++ won't be that critical. The combination of -2 to hit and 2+ save from cover would make a unit really durable.

However, it's the 3-strong squads that are most vulnerable, as you won't want to burn Lightning-fast reflexes on them. The most important thing is to find LoS-blocking cover for all three squads. If that is done, the game is mostly yours.

My thinking is that I won't be able to reliably get the the 10 strong Dark Reaper squad into cover as it has a much larger footprint.  So the invulnerable from Asurmen may actually be helpful for them against deepstriking plasma analogues, etc.  However, they will benefit the most from Protect and Conceal so after Turn 1, should be good.

The 3 strong Dark Reaper squads won't be receiving the benefits of Protect or Conceal as it's inefficient but should more reliably get behind LOS blocking terrain and at least get in a crater or something for the cover bonus, the invulnerable save won't be a big help for them.

Thanks for the input folks, I'll let everyone know how it goes in the testing.  Any further comments please don't hold back.

[bca11]

It's a solid plan. Let us know how it goes, especially vs. Astra Militarum. I've yet to face them but I will probably see them at an upcoming tournament (and I'm running a list very similar to yours).

[Akaitsuki]

This is a solid footslogging list, looks to me like other than fixing up the number of detachments you don't seem to really need advice. You clearly know very well what you are doing and your battle plan is solid. I recently took first place in my local tournament fielding Tyranids. I used a Brigade (Hive Fleet Hydra) considering that you plan on running your list at tournaments, my question is how would you survive against an army that can output 300 bolter shots a turn within 12" range. A good deal of your army is short range aswell so I think inevitably you'd have to get close and personal to fire at full effect (Those Dire Avengers).

Here's a gist of what i brought in HQ: Tervigon (warlord), neurothrope, hive tyrant (on foot, 2x devourer), 3 units of 30x termagants 10fleshborer/20 devourer, 3 units of ripper swarms for objectives. 2 lictors, 1 unit of venomthropes for -1 to hit my entire army (or most of it anyway). 3 units of spore mines (good to zone vs deep strikes). 5 biovores, 2 carnifexes (2x devourer, -1 to hit), thornback (devourer).

In a head-on match I think i have more shooting power than you, while both protected by -1 to hit, and both at max shooting effect within 18" inches. I think i would win a shooting match, I was able to kill Magnus in 1 turn even while he had -1 to hit protection from the changeling. Each unit of termagants puts out 70 shots that re-roll 1s to hit and to wound.

So my question for you is, what do you do when your opponent has similar abilities to yours and can ignore the penalty to hit either by being within 12" of you or by having re-rolls to mitigate. Consider adding more DAKKA to your list at long range

[Scorn]

Interesting challenge.  Horde is a tough match up, no question.

My long range firepower in the form of 19 Dark Reapers is not affected by penalties to hit, so will always be hitting on 3+ (native ability) with additional buffs in the form of Exarchs re-rolling 1's to hit (native ability) and Guide on a large unit.  So there's anywhere from 18 starshot missiles to 36 starswarm missiles backed up by a tempest launcher that will be difficult to mitigate entirely. Big priority would be to eliminate the venomthropes to open up the rest of the shooting, particularly the anti-horde from the Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks, and Warp Spiders.

Further, I can stack additional penalties on enemy shooting in the form of unit special abilities (Rangers, Warp Spiders), psychic powers and strategems (until the precious command points run out).  To mitigate the damage that I'm taking.

Frankly, I think we'd both have the tools necessary to do the job.  But that's what the testing is for.

[Scorn]

Played first test game yesterday against a friend's Catachan Astra Militarum.

I had provided my list to him ahead of time, talked strengths and weaknesses over with him and asked him to tailor his list as much as he felt was reasonable.

He brought the following:
Catachan Brigade
2 Company Commanders
1 Primaris Psyker
Sgt Harker
Two squads of Ratlings
6 Infantry Squads
2 Hellhounds
2 Scout Sentinels
3 Basilisks
4 Chimeras

Tempestus Battalion
Tempestor Prime
Primaris Pysker
3 squads of Scions

...and as many flamers as he could fit in, flamers in the infantry squads, double heavy flamers on the Chimeras, heavy flamers on the Sentinels.

We played one of the new Maelstrom missions from Chapter approved in which you must discard your tactical objectives and draw a new hand every turn.

At the end of game (Turn 5) I lost 13 (12 maelstrom plus first blood) to 10 (all maelstrom).

Learning points:
-be mindful of psychic powers that bypass normal targeting, Asurmen was taken out by a well-placed Psychic Maelstrom after enduring an unexpectedly painful round of fire from 10 Ratlings
-be a little more conservative with command points, I burned two on Lightning Fast Reactions to keep the Fire Dragons alive, it was unnecessary, as they were out of position and the firepower they were facing wasn't that scary (other than the wounded Hellhound who bypassed to hit rolls all together)
-be more mindful of line of sight, I had placed the core of the firebase in one corner of the board, while it was untouched at the end of the game I had not been able to fire to full effect, should have gone for the middle instead
-Warlord trait, once psychic powers get up and running the likelihood of multiple casualties from the Dark Reaper squad, having Seer of the Shifting Vector on one of the psykers (either the Farseer or the Conceal Spiritseer) would have ensured more powers were successfully cast, likely more valuable
-roll better (on two separate occasions a 10 strong squad of Dark Reapers (with a combination of Guide and/or Doom) was unable to kill a damaged chimera/hellhound in a volley, 9 Fire Dragons were unable to kill a single Hellhound after Deep Striking, multiple failed psychic tests and Perils, Asurmen not passing an armour save for the life of him)

Got a game scheduled against Harlequins for early January and trying to line a game up against an Emperor's Children army for later in the month.

[admironheart]

it is interesting how in the heat of battle....your force shows its true values.

that is why you want to come up with an army.....then play it at least half a dozen times prior to a tournament. And vs as many factions as you can.

I'm sure the ITC guys play dozens of games with their lists, tweeking it here and there but overall the better you know your aremy AND  how the enemy is going to attack it will make you a better general that day.

[Scorn]

Upcoming games are against Harlequins on Saturday and a re-match against Catachans on Sunday.

The Harlequin player is a nemesis that I've never managed to beat in a proper game (fingers crossed).  I think I can take the Catachans now though.

[Fenris]

Lightning fast reaction, don't work on Dark Reapers unless you can magically give them the FLY keyword.
Sorry misread that.

Asurmens aura is not very effective as pointed out, you can give guardians the same 4++ with a stratagem, and they are much better cannon fodder.

Regarding the amount of detachments, you can easily just split the fire dragons in two then drop a HQ or two for 1 unit of elite tax instead and you have a brigade for +1CP.

Also fire dragons has not been useful on foot since 2nd ed, if you have the points a unit of wraithguards is much better on foot.

If you are still set on using several detachments, use biel-tan on the Avengers with (or without)Asurmen.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

So... Just going to ask... Why not taking a Brigade and Supreme Command detachment?

You need Min 3 HQ - you have 6. Hence the Supreme Command for the other 3

You need 6 troops - check
3 of Fast - Check
3 of Heavy - Check
3 of Elite - you only have one atm. But a bit of tweaking can easily see that fit.

[Scorn]

Thanks for the input folks.

Responses to comments:
I avoided the Brigade as I didn't see a use for multiple Elites units in the army. Have been a little underwhelmed with Fire Dragons (who are footslogging but also Deep Striking via webway strike) so will take this into consideration.

Switching the Avengers into a Biel Tan battalion is a great idea.

I wanted to make an Aspect Host work (I've got a similar list using Guardians that is objectively better but relies on me assembling and painted an excessive amount of Guardians).

Results of further test games
My old Harlequin nemesis switched things up and took a Ynnari / Craftworlds list that a dark mirror of mine but with Shadow Spectres, Yvraine, Kabalite Warriors and some vehicles in place of my Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, and Asurmen. Definitely nasty.  We both learned a lot from this game.  A loss for me here.

Re-match against the Catachans.  Dominated this game but started to lose out to attrition as the game stretched to 7 turns.  Won by a significant points margin (41 to 27) but glad there couldn't be a turn 8 or 9.

Learning points:
Ilic and Asurmen continue to disappoint. Ilic is likely out for a foot Autarch to buff Avengers or Dark Reapers (more likely Avengers as the Reaper Exarchs don't benefit from his aura). Asurmen stays for now along with the Dire Avengers but in the long run the core theme (foot aspect host) will likely change (foot infantry host) over the long term.

Tempest launchers are amazing, juggling points to get more of them and juggling conversions on existing Exarchs.

[Blazinghand]

It might be worth doing to play with your troop choices a bit to make your Dire Avengers more effecient. For example, taking this unit:

5 Dire Avengers, 1 is Exarch with 2 Shuriken Catapults

Six times, would give you a lot of anti-infantry firepower, and they'd all be able to hang out near Asurmen.