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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #420 on: May 26, 2017, 04:08:03 AM »
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A Painboy gives nearby Ork Infantry and Biker units a 6+ save against wounds suffered. A Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field gives nearby Ork units a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks. And by the way, you can take BOTH of these saves!

This reads to me like 5+ inv followed by 6+ FNP, not armour and inv
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #421 on: May 26, 2017, 05:28:26 AM »
Maelstrom is probably the single greatest thing to ever be added to the game. :)

I disagree.  It's an annoying and unnecessary gimmick which adds unpredictability to a game which already has sufficient unpredictability.  This is why I have a problem with it.  I like to play a game with clear and set mission objectives, not have them change at random.  I also question the logic behind Maelstrom from a narrative point of view.  The edition was a great opportunity to consign it to history and I'm disappointed that GW has decided not to do so.

It's doesn't need to be complex at all. My LGS just decides if we want to do Maelstrom or Eternal and roll for those specifically. We usually play Maelstrom, as the tactical objectives make games much more compelling since your objective can change every turn. "Normal" Eternal war games are good if you just want a more relaxing game (They can usually be played faster as well).

It's feasible to simplify it as you describe, however, I have never the liked the ever changing goal posts concept in any form of life, including 40K missions.

@GML & Irisado: The unit by unit deployment, is not the end of the world.
However there are several reasons not to use that mechanic. Have you considered MSU armies vs armies with very few units. The few unit armies will essentially always deploy first.

I still cannot see why this would be a major issue.  What are the other reasons not to use it?  You've only mentioned one.

It's a tried and tested mechanic.  It works well with Age of Sigmar and has worked well with previous editions of Fantasy and 40K.

Quote
Also why would I buy rules when I have to invent them myself anyway, why reinvent the wheel?

That's a bit of a distortion of what reinventing the wheel means ;).

Quote
Furthermore it's a matter of game balance.

How would voluntarily agreeing to add an extra game turn radically alter game balance?

GW has taken a pragmatic option by reducing the game length in my opinion.  I'm surprised that it's proving to be such a controversial topic for some of you.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 05:29:45 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #422 on: May 26, 2017, 06:34:37 AM »
@magenb

I agree that varied game length was fun and made for a lot of tense moments. But it was introduced to counteract the last-turn objective denial tricks that sucked so badly in 5th edition (looking at you Eldar gents). Given the new objective claiming rules, this seems to be less of a problem now.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #423 on: May 26, 2017, 06:54:15 AM »
I'm stoked about the game going down to 5 turns. I can't tell you how many times I'm sitting there PRAYING the game ends at Turn 5 just because I've been sitting around the table for 5+ hours. I personally love it. Quick and bloody games are what I want, and it means I'll travel to play new opponents.

VERY happy for Ork players. That preview was fantastic... aside from DE, the armies who needed a ray of hope, I feel got it. Tyranids and Orks needed to know their armies were being looked after. Don't get me wrong I think DE are gonna be fine, I just meant the article didn't quite shed the amount of light on how they work, that other two armies got.

Man I cannot wait for this new edition. I've already had 3 of my gaming buds who I've not talked to in almost a year reach out to me looking to line up games. I'm so excited, I really think this edition is going to be great.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #424 on: May 26, 2017, 07:33:52 AM »
I generally think this edition looks good. One thing that concerns me, though, is that while everything seems to be getting tougher (more wounds, armor saves basically better, cover more useful), the weapons don't seem to be keep pace. Other than the ones that do multiple wounds (and there are only so many of those), it seems like it's going to be a lot harder to kill things in this edition. That's going to take some getting used to and is probably going to change our strategies by a LOT.

Like, take Sniper Rifles for instance. Granted we haven't seen the stat line, but it seems like (judging from Sniper Drones) they'll have a fixed strength. If IC get more wounds, how many damned snipers is it going to take to shoot down one Chaos Lord or Warboss or something? Seems impractical as a strategy and weird from a narrative point of view.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #425 on: May 26, 2017, 08:12:07 AM »
@Wydrr- While this should definitely be classified as a rumor, I saw a leaked page from the new rules on Faeit212 from a pretty big website which made it seem like assault from deepstrike and assault from reserves was certainly in play. Terminators assaulting from deepstrike is gonna be brutal, especially if they can shoot and punch first with powerfists. I'm fully expecting this game to be a bloodbath, but I dont think any one phase is gonna be king. Even those rumors aside, I also expect those IC's to be dealing out a ton of damage, including mortal wounds.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #426 on: May 26, 2017, 08:35:12 AM »
Sure. In assault.

What happens to Guard, Tau, etc? How much does that suck for them?

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #427 on: May 26, 2017, 10:15:11 AM »
@Wydrr- While this should definitely be classified as a rumor, I saw a leaked page from the new rules on Faeit212 from a pretty big website which made it seem like assault from deepstrike and assault from reserves was certainly in play. Terminators assaulting from deepstrike is gonna be brutal, especially if they can shoot and punch first with powerfists. I'm fully expecting this game to be a bloodbath, but I dont think any one phase is gonna be king. Even those rumors aside, I also expect those IC's to be dealing out a ton of damage, including mortal wounds.
I think GW flat out confirmed that you can assault from Deep Strike on their Facebook page.  I remember seeing a comment where someone asked if it was allowed (referencing the Trygon rules), and the 40k Facebook page pointed out that no where in the rules was there a restriction saying they couldn't.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #428 on: May 26, 2017, 11:05:16 AM »
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #429 on: May 26, 2017, 11:37:36 AM »
More marine argle bargle
New Warhammer 40,000: Primaris Space Marines – Warhammer Community

Assault bolters are pretty beslubbering ridiculous. And they get two of them?

So, I guess codex creep is getting an early start... ::)

Secondary question: Can models use all of their weapons? So, like, can the Gravis Captain use both his super-power fist *and* his power sword in the same turn? Does it give an extra attack (signs point to know), can he split attacks between weapons? How does that work? (we don't know, I guess, but I wonder)

Offline Partninja

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #430 on: May 26, 2017, 02:33:48 PM »
@Wydrr- While this should definitely be classified as a rumor, I saw a leaked page from the new rules on Faeit212 from a pretty big website which made it seem like assault from deepstrike and assault from reserves was certainly in play. Terminators assaulting from deepstrike is gonna be brutal, especially if they can shoot and punch first with powerfists. I'm fully expecting this game to be a bloodbath, but I dont think any one phase is gonna be king. Even those rumors aside, I also expect those IC's to be dealing out a ton of damage, including mortal wounds.
I think GW flat out confirmed that you can assault from Deep Strike on their Facebook page.  I remember seeing a comment where someone asked if it was allowed (referencing the Trygon rules), and the 40k Facebook page pointed out that no where in the rules was there a restriction saying they couldn't.

The catch is most "deep strike" mechanics have to be more than 9" away from an enemy model. Even if we're allowed to assault after a deepstrike, it will still be easy to fail your charge distance.

Post Merge: May 26, 2017, 02:36:34 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

@magenb

I agree that varied game length was fun and made for a lot of tense moments. But it was introduced to counteract the last-turn objective denial tricks that sucked so badly in 5th edition (looking at you Eldar gents). Given the new objective claiming rules, this seems to be less of a problem now.

What are these new objective claiming rules? I must have missed that bit.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 02:36:34 PM by Partninja »

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #431 on: May 26, 2017, 02:38:36 PM »
Don't forget the free move you get when activated in the combat phase. Helps for those times you were just off.
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #432 on: May 26, 2017, 02:48:29 PM »
@Wydrr- Well without knowing exactly how IG/Tau will look, particularly their weapon profiles I can see where you are coming from. However I think Tau are still gonna have phenomenal shooting and should be able to wash away the layers of protective units to get direct shots on those IC's. Very hard to tell without knowing the various weapon profiles, but just with the change to AP  where you could be dropping the armor saves of models signficantly in huge swathes across the board I think you should be fine. We'l have to see though. However your concerns could valid, it could be a weakness for those armies.

@Partninja- I don't think it'll be too hard to fail those charges. Remember you get +1" to charge, so you are guaranteed at least 3" on the charge. Thats really nice!
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #433 on: May 26, 2017, 04:09:29 PM »

@GML & Irisado: The unit by unit deployment, is not the end of the world.
However there are several reasons not to use that mechanic. Have you considered MSU armies vs armies with very few units. The few unit armies will essentially always deploy first.

I still cannot see why this would be a major issue.  What are the other reasons not to use it?  You've only mentioned one.

It's a tried and tested mechanic.  It works well with Age of Sigmar and has worked well with previous editions of Fantasy and 40K.

Quote
Also why would I buy rules when I have to invent them myself anyway, why reinvent the wheel?

That's a bit of a distortion of what reinventing the wheel means ;).

Quote
Furthermore it's a matter of game balance.

How would voluntarily agreeing to add an extra game turn radically alter game balance?

GW has taken a pragmatic option by reducing the game length in my opinion.  I'm surprised that it's proving to be such a controversial topic for some of you.

I've already mentioned a couple of reasons.
1. MSU
2. Time consuming
3. Natural breaks/pauses between games
4. Game balance is questionable, I know that this was how it was played a couple of editions ago, but they could have come up with something better.
Say player 1 deploys 50% of his points(either narrative or matched), then player 2 deploys 100%, then player 1 deploys the remaining 50%. (an example just from the top of my head)


It might not be reinventing the wheel, but when they serve us rules, that I immediately see flaws in, I will be disappointed. Coming up with houserules myself or with some buddies, is still inventing.

How an extra turn would radically change the game balance?
- Well, some armies are simply not as durable as others.
- One army may have a lot of more victory points left to score, than the other.
- Et cetera.

My issue is not with the reduced gamelength itself alone, it's because GW has come out bragging a game will be much faster now and this is their solution, instead of reducing tedious dice rolling.
To those that claim the game is mostly over long before turn 5, I feel sorry for you since you are either:
1. A victim of a poorly balanced game
2. A very good or very bad player, with bad matchups
3. Having extreme dicerolls, one way or the other.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #434 on: May 26, 2017, 05:06:14 PM »
Some additional info was leaked regarding the shooting phase. It seems everyone gets to shoot and run with assault weapons now (at a -1BS). I suspect Eldar will get to do this at full BS.

Edit:  Removed link to copyright material.  Leaked images are cool, but we can wait until they are officially out.  Or people can find the material themselves.  --- GML
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 10:11:29 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #435 on: May 26, 2017, 05:32:36 PM »
What are these new objective claiming rules? I must have missed that bit.

Objectives are claimed by the side with the most models within 3". This means that tiny jetbike squad or lone Wave Serpent won't cut it. It also means you can't leave only one model in range of the objective and daisy chain the rest of them away.

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #436 on: May 26, 2017, 06:17:15 PM »
Really like that change to scoring objectives. Very cool and thematic as far as the standard scoring mechanic works. I'm hoping objectives will evolve in some way.... hopefully they'll become terrain features or such even in matched play, but I like the way its looking from this preview as-is.

Would be lying if I said I wasnt a bit covetous of the running after shooting assault weapons. I would have taken nerfs across the board and retained that as a somewhat exclusive Eldar mechanic. But I'm guessing will Eldar will have the option to shoot and then run, or run and then shoot and probably at full BS. As I type I think it actually think its a nice balance now that I come to think of it... since its more of a twist on core mechanic, as opposed to pseudo-movement phase exclusive to the Eldar. Its like they are faster than the other races... but not double movement phase fast lol.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #437 on: May 26, 2017, 07:27:16 PM »
Don't worry, Tau are less than thrilled that everyone now gets to fire all their weapons when they feel like it.  ;)
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Offline Dread

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #438 on: May 27, 2017, 01:35:36 AM »
Wow, at first I wasn't happy with the AoS style for 40k then the bits and pieces started looking better and better, now it seems like every new showing makes things more complicated not more simple. I'm gonna reserve judgement til after the release and a few games to find out the pros and cons. As for objectives, myself I never liked 6th but really enjoy the 7th ones. The reason is with all the different armies I have, no matter how weak or strong, tactics made them better. But when we just wanted a fun game, a good meat grinder was a hoot and a half.

Now if points aren't a available at first, most of my gaming group won't play, it will seem to much like when AoS dropped. Fantasy mostly disappeared around here. Now with Runewars out, GW will probably need to scramble to get better play for AoS. I REALLY don't want this to happen to 40k.

I read this forum almost every night and post when I want to add some help or constructive advice. Here is mine for tonight, please everyone let's be more patient and wait til the release and not do any nit picking until then. Most are hoping for a new shiny to play with, I for one am and seems like most of us are. Let's build it up as it comes, positive attitudes will make the convention to the new so nice. I wish I could game with each and everyone of you. I know it would be a really good time no matter what. Wow that sounds sappy but I do mean it.

So 3 weeks, gonna be a tough ride. See ya'll in the pages.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #439 on: May 27, 2017, 02:01:26 AM »
Dread, where they learned from sigmar is that if you don't want to use points to balance a game, you can use a units power rating to reach a total.
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