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Author Topic: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question  (Read 7363 times)

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Offline Wonko the Sane

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Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« on: May 1, 2015, 03:45:26 AM »
So, p. 109, Runes of the farseer.

Does this ability apply to Deny the Witch rolls made against any power? Or only those targeting the farseer/his unit?

It seems like it would be a powerful way to stop summoning powers or invisibility, if he can use the runes against enemy powers that aren't targeting him.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #1 on: May 3, 2015, 04:13:55 PM »
You are only allowed to roll for Deny the witch with the unit that is targeted, if it's not your unit being targeted as is the case with blessings you simply can't deny it.

A farseer can use his runes whenever his unit tries to DTW, as clearly noted in his entry.
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #2 on: May 3, 2015, 04:18:37 PM »
Wait that mean yesterday i played a game but my opponents denied me guide twice, if it's a blessing he can't denie it right... that mean i should have gone throught both times ... tell me if i'm wrong.

T_T  i'm sooooooooo mad at myself for not knowing those rules...
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Offline Wonko the Sane

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #3 on: May 3, 2015, 04:59:15 PM »
You are only allowed to roll for Deny the witch with the unit that is targeted, if it's not your unit being targeted as is the case with blessings you simply can't deny it.

A farseer can use his runes whenever his unit tries to DTW, as clearly noted in his entry.

You're right about the runes, I think, based on the quote that makes me certain you're wrong about the inability to deny blessings.

P. 491 BRB under Manifesting Psychic Powers, step 4: "If the psychic power does not target an enemy unit, your opponent can still attempt to Deny the Witch, but will not be able to use any bonuses."

That seems worded very clearly. Since codex supercedes the main rulebook, I conjecture runes would have to be worded as "any deny the witch" to be used by anything other than the farseer/his unit.

Edit:
tell me if i'm wrong.

Sorry, you're not wrong  :-\
« Last Edit: May 3, 2015, 05:03:02 PM by Wonko the Sane »
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #4 on: May 3, 2015, 05:13:31 PM »
Wait, I forgot to read further down in the BrB, of course you can deny blessings. MY BAD!
You just don't get the bonuses. (GW should have swapped the order of those two sections.)
You can still use the farseer runes for this, so just re-roll for those 6's.
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #5 on: May 3, 2015, 06:52:32 PM »
damn>< well this is so complicated slry >< games workshop  should really clarify their rules, it would make our life easier...
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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #6 on: May 3, 2015, 06:55:46 PM »
Practice and experience is what it comes down to. Also, it never hurts to ask.
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Offline Wonko the Sane

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #7 on: May 4, 2015, 08:33:29 PM »
You can still use the farseer runes for this, so just re-roll for those 6's.

So the bonuses just refer to the "+1 if x +1 if y" section?

The farseer's wording is seemingly vague. It reads:

"...a model with this special rule can re-roll any number of dice used in a single deny/perils test..."

So even though the farseer is not the model *making* the test, he can still use the rule to reroll a single test per phase?
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #8 on: May 6, 2015, 05:38:33 AM »
I'm under the impression that you can always choose what unit is making the DtW roll when none of you units is targeted.

"To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power."
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Offline ShadowseercB

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #9 on: June 6, 2015, 11:21:38 AM »
I'm under the impression that you can always choose what unit is making the DtW roll when none of you units is targeted.

"To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power."


The only way you can choose a unit to make a DtW roll is if they have a psychic hood.  You put a line through a very important part of the sentence.

I did a search for this on google and this forum was the first one I came a cross.  I would like to add that on pg.26 it states that if none of your units were targeted by the enemy spell "...apply no modifiers to your dice rolls..."
That is a modifier so it cannot be used against all deny the witch rolls.  The only thing I know of that applies to all deny the witch rolls is Khorne collars.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2015, 11:28:33 AM by ShadowseercB »

Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #10 on: June 7, 2015, 10:26:07 PM »


I'm under the impression that you can always choose what unit is making the DtW roll when none of you units is targeted.

"To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power."


The only way you can choose a unit to make a DtW roll is if they have a psychic hood.  You put a line through a very important part of the sentence.

I did a search for this on google and this forum was the first one I came a cross.  I would like to add that on pg.26 it states that if none of your units were targeted by the enemy spell "...apply no modifiers to your dice rolls..."
That is a modifier so it cannot be used against all deny the witch rolls.  The only thing I know of that applies to all deny the witch rolls is Khorne collars.
Hi and welcome to 40k online :)

I'm scratching the last part of the sentence for blessings, conjurations etc. Just like the rules says you should do.
"you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls"

The part "To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units" is still a part of the process, the scratched ("that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power.") part is not, as it is not required to have a target, hence the scratching of that part of the process.

Where do you find a modifier?
Is the specific rule "apply no modifier" a modifier? -No.
Is the re-roll from the runes of the farseer a modifier? -No.
Modifiers are explained on page 5 & 13, re-rolls are also on page 13.
If there is no modifier, it cannot not apply, neither can it apply, so the "apply no modifier" does not apply.

I hope that last sentence made sense.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #11 on: June 8, 2015, 01:22:36 AM »
You are not reading the complete entry.  There is no denying that the first line of DtW says that, but you are ignoring the first part of the paragraph that modifies that rule.

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 26; Deny the Witch
If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power ... you can still attempt to Deny the Witch.

So you can not select one of your units because they were not the target of the power.  Therefore, you follow the remainder of the rules that are listed in that final paragraph, which leaves it as the standard rule with no modifiers.
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Offline DCannon ForLife

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #12 on: June 8, 2015, 08:46:23 AM »
In order to use a piece of wargear (Runes, in this case), you have to be able to 'select' the unit with that wargear. As blessings do not target any of your units (assuming you're the Eldar player for simplicity), you are neither directed to nor have permission to select the unit that has the Runes(because you cannot satisfy the conditional of choosing a unit that was the target of a blah blah blah). You are given permission to attempt to deny the which.

If you get hung up on 'what is a modifier?', you're coming at it the wrong way: Modifier or not, if you can't select the unit with the wargear, you can't use the wargear.

Offline The Mattler

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2015, 04:48:08 PM »
In order to use a piece of wargear (Runes, in this case), you have to be able to 'select' the unit with that wargear. As blessings do not target any of your units (assuming you're the Eldar player for simplicity), you are neither directed to nor have permission to select the unit that has the Runes(because you cannot satisfy the conditional of choosing a unit that was the target of a blah blah blah). You are given permission to attempt to deny the which.

If you get hung up on 'what is a modifier?', you're coming at it the wrong way: Modifier or not, if you can't select the unit with the wargear, you can't use the wargear.
Where in the rules is there an explicit requirement to 'select' a unit to  be able to use its wargear?  The option to use a given piece of wargear becomes available whenever the specified conditions of its use arise.  Runes of the Farseer can be used on any Deny the Witch attempt, independent of other modifiers that might apply to the dice values rolled.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 09:47:56 PM »
Are you seriously arguing that you can use a models special rules despite the fact that the model is not taking an action that warrants the use of said rule?  You are actually trying to say that the Farseer can use his Runes to affect a Deny roll despite the rules saying that you follow the rules for Deny and do so without any modifiers.

That's... impressive.  It completely ignores the fact that the rule for Runes mentions the model equipped with it, and that when the model is not the target of a psychic power, it is not Denying the Witch.  But it is an impressive argument, none-the-less.
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Offline The Mattler

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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2015, 10:19:54 PM »
Are you seriously arguing that you can use a models special rules despite the fact that the model is not taking an action that warrants the use of said rule?  You are actually trying to say that the Farseer can use his Runes to affect a Deny roll despite the rules saying that you follow the rules for Deny and do so without any modifiers.

That's... impressive.  It completely ignores the fact that the rule for Runes mentions the model equipped with it, and that when the model is not the target of a psychic power, it is not Denying the Witch.  But it is an impressive argument, none-the-less.
My bad.  DCannonForLife is correct; the 'modifiers vs. bonuses' thing is ambiguous and irrelevant, but the target selection is necessary.  I have no excuse for missing that part of the rules for DTW, although I suspect I still have some baggage from WHFB where you can dispel (poorly) even if you don't have a wizard.
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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2015, 11:34:27 PM »
I think the carry over for you from WHFB also comes from the fact that when you roll to dispel, you select a wizard to add their level to the roll regardless of the target.
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Re: Eldar Craftworlds Runes of the Farseer question
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 12:13:15 PM »
My bad.  DCannonForLife is correct; the 'modifiers vs. bonuses' thing is ambiguous and irrelevant, but the target selection is necessary.  I have no excuse for missing that part of the rules for DTW, although I suspect I still have some baggage from WHFB where you can dispel (poorly) even if you don't have a wizard.

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