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Author Topic: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?  (Read 1517 times)

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Offline Shas'Oink

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Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« on: July 7, 2012, 12:23:16 PM »
I'm being annoying now I'm sure... but lets look at another situation and try to find a complete answer;

Let us assume that a combat gets underway that includes 5 chaos terminators with one or more models with power mauls (as they are an obvious example for models with such weapons) and 5 GK paladins (mixed weapons, it doesn't really matter).

For the sake of arguement we will say that the GK paladins have some models which strike BEFORE the chaos terminators (ie: halberds). they make their attacks at their "normal" initiative step (modified by their unique halberds of course) as we are told they must.

Following this, the chaos terminators strike - and (again for the purposes of this) a number of wounds are caused by models with power mauls. The GK player allocates the power maul attacks to the halberd wielding paladin models which have already attacked. A paladin is wounded but not killed, and because of the "concussive" rule his initiative is reduced to 1.

we continue down the initiative steps and come to initiative 1. This initiative step now includes any paladins that might have daemon hammers AND the paladin that has been reduced to initiative 1 by the "concussive" rule.

According to THIS:

The Assault Phase:
Who Can Fight? BDB pg23 notes that a model that is engaged in combat MUST fight when it's initiative step is reached.

All models must fight. and according to the concussive rule, the paladin is now I1,

Special Rules:
"Concussive" BDB pg35

So, am I correct in assuming that the model, armed with a halberd that has already attacked at an earlier I, now MUST attack again at its new I1!?

I cannot find a passage in the assault rules to say otherwise. Please help me find it!!!

Offline IainC

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #1 on: July 7, 2012, 12:59:43 PM »
There isn't one. I'm 100% sure that it isn't supposed to work that way obviously but a strict reading of the rules would result in this. There are no rules to say a model can only attack once or that models who have already made their full quota of attacks are ignored when working out who must fight.

It is possible for a model to have attacks which happen at different initiative steps of the same combat (Hammer of Wrath rule for example) so I can see why the rules don't prevent models from attacking more than once, but that clarification should appear in the Concussive rule.
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Offline premetheus

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #2 on: July 8, 2012, 05:21:30 PM »
I agree after reading the sections surrounding this it is possible that they attack in both initiative steps.

Wow power mauls really do suck butt and thunderhammers now screw you over when fighting MC lol



Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #3 on: July 9, 2012, 05:23:34 AM »
My argument would be that page 24 states that a model may make a number of attacks equal to its Attacks characteristic, plus or minus any other modifiers that may apply. The scenario you describe has the paladins making more attacks than they are permitted to do so, and does not apply any modifiers to their permitted number of attacks.
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Offline travisb7

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #4 on: July 9, 2012, 08:21:53 AM »
My argument would be that page 24 states that a model may make a number of attacks equal to its Attacks characteristic, plus or minus any other modifiers that may apply. The scenario you describe has the paladins making more attacks than they are permitted to do so, and does not apply any modifiers to their permitted number of attacks.

Agreed. A model is not allowed to make more attacks per turn than permitted with the given modifiers. A sudden change of initiative does not grant the receiving end model additional attacks. One rule to always consider (not sure what page it is on) is the "Most Important Rule" - have fun, don't be a jerk. Follow the spirit of the game.

Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #5 on: July 9, 2012, 08:35:01 AM »
Chuckles, I hope you are right on this one! I will be checking that reference for my own sanity. Without seeing the full passage in context it is difficult to say how binding it is... for instance, the passage may go on to say when a unit attacks (and we are told this is at it's I step... in which case it doesn't help us either way!)

Just to clarify travis, This is not something I am trying to break... I think it is just a loophole in the rules. to be fair, it's not one that I would imagine will come up incredibly often (if at all) but it appears to be there... BUT I would ideally like to find the close of the loop in case an opponent tries to pull this on me!

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #6 on: July 9, 2012, 08:41:29 AM »
I don't really see how it would matter but feel free to check it out, like I said page 24, top left under NUMBER OF ATTACKS
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Offline premetheus

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #7 on: July 9, 2012, 08:52:21 AM »
Er I don't see the part that limits your attacks to being once and only in a single initiative step.

The first part of the sentence says. when their initiative step is reached, models with that initiative who are still alive must attack.

Then goes on to say how you determine how many attacks you get in that new step.


Also I agree this is a blatant errata issue that can easily be fixed by GW as i am sure everyone and their mum agrees this is just retarded.

« Last Edit: July 9, 2012, 08:53:25 AM by premetheus »

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #8 on: July 9, 2012, 09:21:28 AM »
Hmmmm. Looking at the wording I have to say I myself am not sure that this is the solution we were all looking for. It says "When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack". The section which details the limits of their attacks appears after this. Following this logic, the limit to how many attacks a model can make applies to them only when it gets to their Initiative step.
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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #9 on: July 9, 2012, 12:43:20 PM »
Seeing as "All models must fight. and according to the concussive rule, the paladin is int 1" is true and the rule that models fight with their number of attacks (not twice their number of attacks) is also true it makes quite a contradiction.

I would say there is equal evidence for both but at the risk of RAI accusations, attacking once is pretty clearly the 'right' answer. As such there is little to do but ignore it and move on, like the old 1" no assaulting debate of the previous edition it's best just to pay it no mind, save perhaps to email to GW in the hope that it gets clarifies when they give a FAQ.
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Offline travisb7

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Re: Attacking more than once in a combat!!?
« Reply #10 on: July 9, 2012, 12:50:08 PM »
Just to clarify travis, This is not something I am trying to break... I think it is just a loophole in the rules. to be fair, it's not one that I would imagine will come up incredibly often (if at all) but it appears to be there... BUT I would ideally like to find the close of the loop in case an opponent tries to pull this on me!

Not really directed at you, but rather at those who may be reading, saying to themselves, "I could crush opponents so much more this way!" Most of the conversations here are how to avoid rules exploitation in situations like this from power gamers.  ;)

A similar discussion was going on on Dakka with Initiative Steps and pile in moves. Pile in moves take place at model's initiative, while attacks take place on initiative steps. In that case, a GK Paladin with Halberd attacks (+2I) THEN piles in during initiative step 4... I smell a FAQ coming :D

 


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