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Author Topic: All pointy eared place now?  (Read 2846 times)

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Offline Partninja

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All pointy eared place now?
« on: August 1, 2017, 06:59:31 PM »
Just a point of conversation. I know this portion of the forum is simply labeled "Eldar", which is now Aeldari which covers all of the pointy eared space elves, but something irks me.

A lot of the lists I see being posted are often a majority Non-craftworld units (Some over 90%). Some of the competition lists only include one single unit (read model).

Is this part of the forum meant to be more focused on CWE? DE and Harlequins specifically have their own board.

I understand Aeldari allows us to mix and match our armies, and Ynarri mixes this up even more. However, it's frustrating (to me at least) to come here and see most every list full of non-CWE units I never plan on using, looking for advice on, or unable to advise on in a forum section I always assumed was geared towards CWE.

Thoughts?

Edit: I don't mean to imply it's bad to mix lists. Just that a lot of lists use a majority of another army, not just a few units.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2017, 07:02:53 PM by Partninja »

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #1 on: August 1, 2017, 07:03:03 PM »
Yeah I guess in a sense my list here is one of the guilty ones: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition

This is an Ynnari list that contains one Ynnari-only unit (Yvraine), a bunch of Harlequins, and a single Eldar unit, a Crimson Hunter. I'd note this was made specifically for a competition being hosted here in the Eldar board, though, and follows the rules for that competition.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #2 on: August 1, 2017, 07:13:58 PM »
Oh for sure. I'm not faulting you either.

I'm wondering if it's worth keeping separate boards at this point. The Imperial boards are a decent analogue even though they have a lot of unique chapters and factions.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2017, 07:30:03 PM by Partninja »

Offline magenb

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #3 on: August 1, 2017, 08:46:11 PM »
I'm inclined to suggest holding off any changes until the codex(s) are released. Right now CWE is suffering a bit.

It will be interesting to see how GW handles the Codex for Aeldari now, they could do a codex for CWE, DE, Ynnari, Harlies would feel more like a supplement, but technically it could be one, or it could be one big book, like the index.

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #4 on: August 1, 2017, 09:57:07 PM »
I'm inclined to suggest holding off any changes until the codex(s) are released. Right now CWE is suffering a bit.

It will be interesting to see how GW handles the Codex for Aeldari now, they could do a codex for CWE, DE, Ynnari, Harlies would feel more like a supplement, but technically it could be one, or it could be one big book, like the index.

Eldar and Dark Eldar have full army lists each the size of or larger than the Space Marine list, so probably warrant a Codex each. Ynnari's a very tricky one - it's 3 models and a page of special rules, but they can't really tack it onto either the Craftworld or the DE book because it uses both ranges, plus the Harlequins. Perhaps they'd just duplicate the rules in both? Thematically they're a Craftworld rather than a DE subfaction, so would probably go into the Craftworld book.

Harlequins have had their own small book in the past but they're a tricky one - they've traditionally been linked to CE lists, but only because for a long time there weren't any other Eldar factions aside from Craftworlders and Harlequins.

Either way it's a good question, and becomes more complex still if GW decides to add model support for Corsairs or Exodites.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2017, 09:58:50 PM by Rhyleth »

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #5 on: August 1, 2017, 10:17:05 PM »
They they will all get their own books.

Ynnari, will probably expand to a few new kits. Probably themed units around the god of death (probably a hero or two and maybe one or two duel kits). Harlequins, Craftworlds and Dark Eldar will all probably get no new kits on release (besides maybe some re-boxing).

Ynnari is a big deal in the post gathering storm world, so it'd be cool to see how that faction has evolved since their (recent) founding. I hope that their units share the aesthetic of the triumvirate (design elements from all the Eldar factions combined).

I'll expect only the newer factions (Primaris in space marines, Death Guard, Ynnari) will actually get new models in the codex blitz.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #6 on: August 1, 2017, 10:48:54 PM »
They they will all get their own books.

Ynnari, will probably expand to a few new kits. Probably themed units around the god of death (probably a hero or two and maybe one or two duel kits). Harlequins, Craftworlds and Dark Eldar will all probably get no new kits on release (besides maybe some re-boxing).

Ynnari is a big deal in the post gathering storm world, so it'd be cool to see how that faction has evolved since their (recent) founding. I hope that their units share the aesthetic of the triumvirate (design elements from all the Eldar factions combined).

I'll expect only the newer factions (Primaris in space marines, Death Guard, Ynnari) will actually get new models in the codex blitz.

I strongly suspect there's a big revision coming to the Craftworld range, precisely because there aren't very many other factions crying for new releases and they need to put things out to sell Codexes. It's among the oldest ranges still in the game and more heavily resin-based than most, and a large portion of the range was moved to 'webstore exclusive' apparently very recently. The last few Codices gradually replaced the 2nd Ed. Jetbikes and Wraithguard - Spears, the Avatar and Spiders at the very least have to be next in line. Spears are currently strong game units, and if that remains the case in the Codex that improves their odds of a new release further still. Also there's a prospect of additional units, particularly vehicles. They do seem to be doing some of their marketing to take advantage of Dawn of War 3, so it's also possible they'd add Shadow Spectres to the main game as a tie-in (though I'm doubtful as the Eldar already have so many infantry sets).

GW may actually want to tone down the Ynnari attention somewhat now they've succeeded in their task of selling Triumvirate kits - they were a big story event as far as the campaign was concerned, but in overall relevance to the universe they're a very small Eldar faction, smaller than the Harlequins. I'm not even sure their backstory allows for much evolution beyond recruiting more named characters - their whole thing is that they gain access to everything the other Eldar factions do, and if there's anything an army with access to all Eldar factions doesn't need, it's more units. I suspect that at most they'll use a Ynnari Codex, if there is one, as an excuse to release a new batch of Craftworld models, and conceivably one-offs like Exodite Knights that they aren't intending to support as a full army.

Possibly they'll also add more structure to the list, cutting out certain units they currently have access to on a rather ad-hoc basis but make little flavour sense (Sslyth are out of place as non-Eldar, it's not clear they should be allowed Incubi, who are more or less strictly under Drazhar's control, and Wraiththings seem to make no sense whatsoever from what I understand of their background from the Index book. They ought to be the antithesis of anything powered by spirit stones, and it's unlikely the Spirit Hosts themselves have much opinion on the matter). That even opens up the door for units like Exodite Knights that would fill the superheavy role with Wraithknights unavailable.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2017, 11:40:09 PM by Rhyleth »

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #7 on: August 1, 2017, 11:36:45 PM »
We're not going to merge anything any time soon. We're also not going to divide any boards. Yes, it's tiresome when the lists you're looking for don't often have a majority of your focus. Yet, that's only going to be worse for other people once we start mingling and anti-mingling things. Relax for the time being as most things are in flux.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #8 on: August 1, 2017, 11:51:21 PM »
I don't see why GW would roll in harlequins or ynnari into either CWE or DE.
More likely we will see even more diversity of codexes, Ynnari getting their own by simply adding the most common units from CWE, DE & clowns.
I also hope GW gets their stuff together and start making plastic aspect warriors, that could be done with a Biel-Tan supplement. That supplement may even be supplementing the Ynnari. But enough speculating, I personally Ynnari could join the "other eldar" thread, but waiting until we see codexes is probably best.
I think it's one of GW's policies to make forums grief over what path GW are going to choose.
We may just have Ynnari available from the Index as I would thing they will be top priority unless GW have an elaborate plan for them.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #9 on: August 2, 2017, 02:01:49 AM »
Speaking of new releases, I always suspected - and still suspect - that the total number of people who collect Eldar in the world is just not big enough to justify investing into re-releasing their existing kits in plastic. It has been told on many occasions that, unlike moulds for resin or metal, designing and building a plastic mould is seriously expensive, and thus such investment will be justified only if you can count on getting some massive sales of the newly released plastic kit. With the existing Aspect Warriors it just might not be the case.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #10 on: August 2, 2017, 03:50:04 AM »
@Seeking One: Plastic aspect warriors can be achieved by making them all in the same basic mold, then sell wargear kits for each aspect. That way they could actually make one base kit or Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Striking scorpions, Fire Dragons & Dark Reapers, possibly with another kit for Swooping hawks, Shadow Specters & Warp spiders, or even in the same kit since SH Wings, WJG or jetpacks may be add-on parts.

If they do this along with a Biel-Tan book it will likely sell enough.
GW might even be able to use the same mold for some DE and clowns, with bits sold in separate sprue's. Fluffwise this could be justified by Ynnari.

Sure they might lose some fancy poses, but if they want to keep that somewhat, they could do a Wych/Banshee/Troupe mold and a Scorpion/Incubi mold.

I only have metal aspects except for the Avengers, and most troublesome are Banshees and Hawks because they easily fall and bends or breaks. Scorpions are to a lesser degree somewhat troublesome too, due to they often get into melee.
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #11 on: August 2, 2017, 03:51:14 AM »
Huuuuu... I mighy be guilty about that a bit. 80/90% of my armie is ebay/second hand based... wich isn't the best if I want gw to devellop. I apologise gw but the deals where to tempting, I'm getting side tracked aren't I?

Going back to the past when I started on this forum the same question as the author hung around in my head for a while. So let me input what I understood of the situation. The eldar board was set up for everything eldar related. Aeldari as we say this days, yet the flood of craftworlder dominated the board for a while, and since their was specific board for the other faction it was gradually acknoledged as such. Yet as it is easier to have more input from everyone, and general topic like list building competition needed a place to survive the other faction xame back to invade again and take back the place that was rightfully theirs to begin with. And as luck would have it, the main topic of discution this day is the new flavor of eldar in the name of Yinnary (probably wrote that wrong right?).

In all honnesty if you want more craftworld, add them juicy knew topic yourself. Since I am back you can expect craftworlder to be a main list discution topic for a while aswell. :D just so happen to have a few list I want to discuss (bunch of games vs blood angels, tyranide and orks close by).

Ok onto the knew kit... well I'm intrested if they produce cool new kit we can all enjoy. I'm a craftworlder at the core so non craftworld thingy do not really interest me much, yet cavaliers army always got me intrested, I might just build a corsair like type of force once I have finished painting my every day army (wich is gonna take a few years)><. But one reason I was not running a lot of aspect warrior at the beginning is because I am bad at converting and I did not like the kit much. I have learned to grow founder of this unit since then ^^ But I woukd love some cool new kit! With dinamic posing a not so crappy avatar model, and other goodies. The biggest thing I am intrested in with the knew codexs coming up really is how are they going to split them. I would love to have one big codex for evything but it would be too expensive. there might be a get a big codex get ynnary quplement free with it or a reduce price bundle all eldar one shot codex combo, I don't know. Wait and see shall be my stand.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #12 on: August 2, 2017, 04:29:01 AM »
@Seeking One: Plastic aspect warriors can be achieved by making them all in the same basic mold, then sell wargear kits for each aspect. That way they could actually make one base kit or Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Striking scorpions, Fire Dragons & Dark Reapers, possibly with another kit for Swooping hawks, Shadow Specters & Warp spiders, or even in the same kit since SH Wings, WJG or jetpacks may be add-on parts.

This is one thing that I'm 100% sure GW should not do, and I really hope they would not do it. This would kill 90% of the individuality of the Aspects.

The only two pairs of Aspects that theoretically could be released as single unified sets are Avengers + Dragons and Banshees + Hawks. The armour of Reapers is way too distinct in design, and so is the armour of Scorpions and Spiders. Scorpions are also traditionally sculpted in very distinct characterful poses, which reflect their combat style and would not fit any other fighters.

Hell, it's not without reason that even Space Marines, despite their unified looks, have different kits for, say, Tactical and Assault marines, as the two units have very different dynamics. They also have separate kits for normal and sniper Scouts, command squads, honour guard, Legion of the damned, etc. Devastators also come as a separate kit, just because the weapon options are so different. And Eldar are not Space Marines, their looks are much less unified.


Quote
GW might even be able to use the same mold for some DE and clowns, with bits sold in separate sprue's. Fluffwise this could be justified by Ynnari.

Are you suggesting to actually move all CWE and DE, let alone clowns, to one and the same armour style??? You can't be serious...

Quote
Sure they might lose some fancy poses

Those "fancy poses" are an integral part of what makes Eldar warriors look awesome. This hobby is driven mostly by the looks of the models after all, and they cannot be sacrificed that easily.

« Last Edit: August 2, 2017, 04:31:13 AM by SeekingOne »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #13 on: August 2, 2017, 06:14:11 AM »
As Rummy says, there the structure of the boards here is not going to be changed any time soon.

How it works in terms of posting army lists and discussions is as follows:

All army lists and discussions relating exclusively to Eldar of any type belong in this board.  All army lists and discussions relating exclusively to Dark Eldar or Harlequins belong in their respective boards.  If the army list or discussion pertains to an allied force it is posted in whichever board the main part of the army belongs to, so for example if you are fielding an Eldar list with Harlequin allies, it belongs in this board, but if you are fielding a Harlequin list with Eldar allies, it belongs in the Harlequins board.  I have updated the sticky for this board to clarify this: Eldar Board Rules, FAQ, and Posting Guidelines - Updated for 2017: Please Read.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #14 on: August 2, 2017, 07:32:42 AM »
That's precisely the thing.."Eldar list with Harlequin allies". Harlies are Eldar...Eldar is the whole race. Is this board really meant to imply "Craftworld" Eldar?

Edit: I should note I did not mean to imply that we should change the boards around immediately (or at all). Just a point of thought.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2017, 07:35:58 AM by Partninja »

Offline Irisado

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #15 on: August 2, 2017, 07:40:50 AM »
This board has always, by implication, been for Craftworld Eldar.  Harlequins are a separate army, which is why they have a separate board.  This Ynnari cult doesn't change how the boards work.  They're divided Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins (Corsairs and Exodites).  Ignore the whole Ynnari concept when posting a discussion.  All that matters is whether the army is predominantly Eldar.  If it is, this is the right board for discussing it.
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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #16 on: August 2, 2017, 07:54:39 AM »
Should probably change the name of this board to Craftworld Eldar then, to ease confusion.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #17 on: August 2, 2017, 08:02:48 AM »
Speaking of new releases, I always suspected - and still suspect - that the total number of people who collect Eldar in the world is just not big enough to justify investing into re-releasing their existing kits in plastic. It has been told on many occasions that, unlike moulds for resin or metal, designing and building a plastic mould is seriously expensive, and thus such investment will be justified only if you can count on getting some massive sales of the newly released plastic kit. With the existing Aspect Warriors it just might not be the case.


Plenty of niche units in other armies - as well as simply low-selling armies - have had multiple plastic kits in the past. I think GW said years ago that changing production costs had made making new plastic kits much more affordable. Units like Dark Reapers would probably sell as well as jetbikes. Would most Aspects really undersell Wracks, Hellions etc.? The last Dark Eldar revision added at least 6 plastic kits for a range that's unlikely to be as popular as CE (at least at the time they were released) - and that's not counting the three distinct vehicles (never mind the variants) or the single-pose plastic characters. Harlequins got two plastic kits.

The Eldar need at most only 6 and a half plastic kits to fully plasticise the Aspect range.

I doubt they'd do a single 'Aspect Warriors' kit and wouldn't want them to, but they may combine more similarly-posed Aspects into one - such as Warp Spiders/Dark Reapers. Or they might go the route of plastic character models and have static rather than poseable models but simply made from plastic rather than resin.

Of course this all assumes any updates will be in plastic, which needn't be the case. While I'd expect them to gradually plasticise the range, many could simply be updated models in resin.

Quote
The only two pairs of Aspects that theoretically could be released as single unified sets are Avengers + Dragons and Banshees + Hawks. The armour of Reapers is way too distinct in design, and so is the armour of Scorpions and Spiders. Scorpions are also traditionally sculpted in very distinct characterful poses, which reflect their combat style and would not fit any other fighters.

Current Reapers, from what I can tell in the photos, have more distinctive armour than the 3rd Ed. versions or the RT ones, but that's confined to this particular set of models and isn't a sacrosanct part of the Reaper 'look'. I think they could quite happily share a kit with Warp Spiders, as the jump generator can simply be an add-on component.

Nice idea for Hawks/Banshees - I'd had it in mind that, mechanically fiddly as they are, plastic Hawks might be the least likely of all. Then again, part of their seeming unpopularity may simply be down to having fiddly models. Scourges can get a plastic kit, so Hawks may have a shot.

Quote
Hell, it's not without reason that even Space Marines, despite their unified looks, have different kits for, say, Tactical and Assault marines, as the two units have very different dynamics. They also have separate kits for normal and sniper Scouts, command squads, honour guard, Legion of the damned, etc. Devastators also come as a separate kit, just because the weapon options are so different. And Eldar are not Space Marines, their looks are much less unified.

At least in the past many of those used the same torsos packaged on different sprues - Devastators were the same basic Marine models as Tac Marines.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2017, 08:20:38 AM by Rhyleth »

Offline Irisado

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Re: All pointy eared place now?
« Reply #18 on: August 2, 2017, 09:38:55 AM »
Should probably change the name of this board to Craftworld Eldar then, to ease confusion.

That would cause more confusion by making it unclear about where Ynnari lists should go, so there's no need to make that change.

This topic is jumping around all over the place and discussing multiple issues making it hard to follow.  There are already topics discussing the Eldar range and models, so those discussions can continue in those topics or in a new one if appropriate.  Any further suggestions about board structure belong in Suggestions, Questions, and Comments.  Any questions about where to post a topic can be asked in the new sticky thread that I created if anyone still has doubts.  This topic can now rest the Dome of Crystal Seers.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2017, 09:39:59 AM by Irisado »
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