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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« on: July 28, 2017, 06:03:41 AM »
Cerka, fellow Aeldari!

I'm looking for some input on the various HQ choices. Particularly the Autarch, if anyone's running them.

Personally, I'm always bringing a Farseer and a Warlock with conceal. Because I only play battle-forged armies in Matched play, I can only ever cast one conceal so I'm unsure how valuable another warlock would be.

For my next battle I'm gonna go with Eldrad instead of a regular Farseer and 2 Warlocks (Conceal and Enhance).
However, I'm curious about the Autarch. They just seem so NOT worth the points investment...
Sure, the aura is nice, but is it worth the base cost just for that aura? The upgrades for him, which makes him useful in more ways than just a buff bot, are quite expensive and all the combos I'm interested in increase his point cost by at least 50%. Sometimes it's more like 80%.

My question is, do people use Autarchs or not? And if so, how do you use them?
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 08:28:11 AM »
While I didn't run an Autarch in my last game, in my two previous games he was EXCELLENT! I ran him on a jetbike with a lance, escorted by Shining Spears. The Spears were very durable, but I was playing against Guard in those games so they took casualties due to mass lasgun volleys. But even with just a single guy riding alongside him, the combo of the catapults, the lance fire, then the assault worked phenomenally well. I had him shredding all these Special Weapon teams and Company Command Squads generating Soulbursts. He was really one of the MVP's of the last game I played him as he just went out and wiped out all these little squads all on his own.

I think even just a foot Autarch with some good weapons riding in a Serpent with Wraithguard would work well too.

I highly rate the Autarch and I'm betting he's going to get some unique Strategms when the codex comes out. So I think it'd be a good idea to practice with him before hand.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 12:15:59 PM »
I used to run a Speartarch back in 7th. Loved the idea. So if I'm going with an Autarch now in 8th, it'll be a Speartarch for sure.

The list I'm building currently has the following HQ choices: Autarch, Farseer, Warlock and a Troupe Master (along with a 5 man-strong Troupe going in a Starweaver).
I'd like to try upgrading the Farseer to Eldrad, but I'd have to scrap a War Walker to free up the points. It's already a lot of points spent on HQ slots, and even one slot more than I need (need 3, got 4).
The original plan was to go with Eldrad, Warlock and Troupe Master, but then Cavalier made me want to give the Autarch a shot. Had to downgrade Eldrad to a regular Farseer to free up the points.

That's why I wanted to get you guys' opinions on the relative effectiveness of the various HQ units. Could still use some input. :)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:22:39 PM by Iluvhir Strafermeyer »
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 01:37:32 PM »
Probably a good idea to post the whole list. Elder hq choices are mainly about the buffs, and which buffs are worth it very much depends on what units they'll be buffing.
In isolation, I'd say warlocks are one of our worst hq option in terms of points efficiency, but if you have a big unit that's going to benefit greatly from one of its buff powers it may be appropriate.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 04:14:20 PM »
What volatilegaz said :) I'd even add that just one big unit might not even be enough to justify a Warlock's cost. In order to be cost-effective, a Warlock on foot should be Concealing the minimum of roughly 240 points worth of models, while a Warlock on jetbike should be Concealing the minimum of whopping 560 points.

Value for a Warlock on foot is not too bad in fact, at least for some builds. For instance, 2 x 20 Guardians on foot cost over 300 points, so deploying a single foot warlock to conceal them looks like a good enough points investment.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2017, 04:35:09 PM »
It is interesting to see how different our experiences can be. My own thoughts on a Warlock with Conceal are that it is EXTREMELY good. Any unit that is close to the Warlock suddenly becomes noticeably more resilient. In my latest game I grouped two Reaper units together with a Warlock in between and my opponent cried as he made his To-Hit rolls. In the game before that, my Warlock took to the front lines, supporting a unit of Jetbikes, a unit of Guardians, and I believe my Wave Serpent was close enough to benefit from the aura as well.
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 04:48:36 PM »
It is interesting to see how different our experiences can be. My own thoughts on a Warlock with Conceal are that it is EXTREMELY good. Any unit that is close to the Warlock suddenly becomes noticeably more resilient. In my latest game I grouped two Reaper units together with a Warlock in between and my opponent cried as he made his To-Hit rolls. In the game before that, my Warlock took to the front lines, supporting a unit of Jetbikes, a unit of Guardians, and I believe my Wave Serpent was close enough to benefit from the aura as well.

I think Conceal has potential alongside bikers and infantry (especially since you an have it affect multiple units with good positioning). However, it shouldn't apply to a Wave Serpent IIRC. I don't have my index with me atm but I thought it did not apply to wave serpents, tanks, wraithlords, etc.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 05:11:28 PM »
For me the only HQs I'm willing to use are Spiritseers, Warlocks, and laser lance Autarchs. Certain characters are good and worth using depending on the list. Illic is nice if you need two HQs and want to hide him the back to plink wounds of characers (maybe with a unit of Rangers too).

I mostly focus on Warlocks first. Mostly because they're cheap and I'm not a huge fan of our HQs as the moment. Conceal is nice for protecting large foot units. Taking enhance/drain with a unit of Banshees or wraithblades is also pretty good. When these powers go off that is....Foot Warlocks are just out cheapest HQ option I don't care if they work or not.

Spiritseers are used in much the same way, except I try to take one of these if I'm using Wraithblades. Enhance+their reroll bubble makes a unit of five wraithblades really good.

Autarch is for running Shining Spears. his reroll bubble is nice, and he adds quite a few laser lance attacks if needed. Giving him a fusion gun allows for a great number of good ranged weapon attacks when combined with his lance and twin-catapults.

I'm experimenting with Yvraine currently, as she is required for running a Ynarri force. She would replace the spot of the Warlock or spiritseer (albeit for a higher price). Getting a free soulburst for D-scythes, Ghostswords, Banshees, Scorpions, Spiders, large units of Guardians etc. is just really good. I just wish Farseers would gain the Ynarri powers and not require a special character.

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 05:50:57 PM »
Hmm, how do people think about a minimalist Autarch, like one with just a power sword and maybe a fusion gun? Can hang out and make shooting more effective, do some shooting, and assault if needed. Maybe give a WJG if you really need to. Something like this would be like 85-100 points ish (depending on what you give), so potentially relatively efficient.
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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 07:51:43 PM »
Hmm, how do people think about a minimalist Autarch, like one with just a power sword and maybe a fusion gun? Can hang out and make shooting more effective, do some shooting, and assault if needed. Maybe give a WJG if you really need to. Something like this would be like 85-100 points ish (depending on what you give), so potentially relatively efficient.

You can theoretically run one with JUST a Shuriken Pistol, which I think is hysterical. I even modeled one last edition for small games. You could also take one with a Scorpion Chainsword for almost no additional points, but at that point why not grab the power sword.

Frankly the shooting weapons are so expensive as to not be worth it unless you have a specific battlefield role he is supporting.



For me the bike-lance-tarch with catapult or deathspinner is the obvious choice. 7 shots and then charging is totally worth while for his cost + the buffs.
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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 09:03:03 PM »
Hmm, how do people think about a minimalist Autarch, like one with just a power sword and maybe a fusion gun? Can hang out and make shooting more effective, do some shooting, and assault if needed. Maybe give a WJG if you really need to. Something like this would be like 85-100 points ish (depending on what you give), so potentially relatively efficient.
If you want to use the Autarch on foot to buff shooting from War Walkers or backfield tanks, to keep him cheap I'd suggest a pair of Avenger Shuriken Catapults instead of the Power Sword and Fusion Gun (which might be more appropriate for moving up aggressively with a pile of Guardians).  The backfield buffing Autarch can be better than a Farseer because you can potentially get more units rerolling more results (and more consistently) if you pack them in and you no longer need to fear templates in 8th.  However, it might just be better overall to make your firebase a bunch of Dark Reapers and put Maugan Ra with them.

Personally, I'm still a fan of the Autarch Skyrunner w/Laser Lance and Fusion Gun, but needs to have other mobile units with him to get the most out of his aura.  He still suffers the problem that virtually all characters have: he's not worth his points cost compared to similar units.  In this case, three Shining Spears are more efficient.  They lose models as they suffer wounds, and their invulnerable save only works against shooting, but they deal more damage with both shooting and melee.

With that in mind, I prefer Warlocks because they're a cheap way to unlock detachments, and their auras are decent if though psychic powers are still unreliable.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 09:20:32 PM by The Mattler »
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Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 09:14:02 PM »
I prefer the reliable buff of the Autarch over a farseer or warlock.

I pop him in with powerful unit that has some volume. Spear are a great fit, great number of shots and gets a good number of attacks, so his bubble does some work.

You could use him in a FD/Banshee wave combo, he can then add firepower and cc support.

If I was to take large unit sizes of reapers then I would consider popping him there to buff them and the screen unit.

Build your list and then think where his buff will have the greatest impact, then add the Wargear to match those units.


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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 02:03:45 AM »
Big fan of the Autarch Skyrunner either with just a lance, or if there are points to spare at the end then a deathspinner or fusion gun. The Autarch Skyrunner gets to babysit a unit of Shining Spears and sometimes jaunt off on his own to go character hunting and the like.

I've used a foot Autarch with fusion gun to accompany two squads of Fire Dragons. This was not worth it.  For the same cost I can take three other Fire Dragons with points left over.

It's not an optimal list but I've had some fun with a 2000 point list with Eldrad, the Avatar, an Autarch, a Warlock and a Wraithknight stomping down the field together. The Autarch is a guaranteed buff the Avatar and the Wraithknight and when you've got a small number of hard hitting attacks it almost feels worth it.  Still not an optimal use of points I suspect.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 12:11:37 PM by Scorn »
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 03:29:37 AM »
and I believe my Wave Serpent was close enough to benefit from the aura as well.

Effects of Conceal apply only to the caster and units of Infantry and Bikes around him. So not to vehicles or monsters.

If I could use Conceal on a couple of Wave Serpents, I'd be the first to say that it's worth its weight in gold - but, alas, it's not the case.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 10:54:03 AM »
So far I've been running a Farseer and Doom seems too good to pass up. I did need a second HQ a couple of weeks ago for detachment reasons and had none to hand, so I used one of my more distinctive Dire Avengers as an infantry autarch with Avengerpult. It seemed decent enough, though since I hadn't built my army with an Autarch in mind I wasn't getting huge value from his aura.

How do the named characters and the Avatar fare as options? The Avatar looks powerful heavily overpriced relative to Dreadnought-type units it generally resembles, and his combat stats don't seem noticeably better than most Phoenix Lords'. With the reduced significance of morale this edition he appears to have one of the weaker auras.

The auras for PLs other than Asurmen seem very narrow. As combatants Karandras, Maugan Ra and Fuegan all seem respectable. I'm not sure how to evaluate Baharroth - as a whole Swooping Hawks seem fairly weak these days, and I think they need the numbers of a full squad to make the grenade packs effective, but Baharroth's higher chance to get mortal wounds is appealing. I'm not sure the fly high rule serves any particular purpose in 40k 8 as it's easy enough to reposition with the high movement rates of jump pack units and grenade packs give a further incentive to move normally.


Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 11:42:38 AM »
How do the named characters and the Avatar fare as options? The Avatar looks powerful heavily overpriced relative to Dreadnought-type units it generally resembles, and his combat stats don't seem noticeably better than most Phoenix Lords'. With the reduced significance of morale this edition he appears to have one of the weaker auras.

Avatar is a fantastic combatant. He is nothing even remotely like Dreadnought-type unit, because dreads are primarily ranged while Avatar is 95% melee. He is a specialised elites and character killer and he's good at it. His only drawback is that he is, just as before, slow and therefore at his best in infantry lists - which, in my opinion, generally cannot compete against mech.
His combat stats are so much better than any of the Phoenix lord's that they cannot even be compared. The only exception is Asurmen, but he is still substantially weaker. And don't forget that he is also much more durable than any of the PLs.

Quote
The auras for PLs other than Asurmen seem very narrow. As combatants Karandras, Maugan Ra and Fuegan all seem respectable. I'm not sure how to evaluate Baharroth - as a whole Swooping Hawks seem fairly weak these days, and I think they need the numbers of a full squad to make the grenade packs effective, but Baharroth's higher chance to get mortal wounds is appealing. I'm not sure the fly high rule serves any particular purpose in 40k 8 as it's easy enough to reposition with the high movement rates of jump pack units and grenade packs give a further incentive to move normally.
When I look at the current design of our HQ choices, I always get a feeling that GW designers made a point of making Eldar character auras consistently weaker than those of their Imperial equivalents. This looks strange and overall kind of unfair. The only buff we get that is good enough to be comparable to what SM or IG get out of their characters is Doom.

The only PL that seems worthwhile is Maugan Ra, for two reasons: first, he buffs one of our best long-range firepower units, and second, he dishes out some serious long-range firepower himself as well. According to my calculations, taking 5 Reapers + Maugan Ra is about as good in terms of damage output as 2 x 5 Reapers. 
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 11:51:03 AM »
The key to the Avatar is, in my opinion, The Wailing Doom. That weapon does an ungodly amount of damage in the hand of the Avatar. He might be overpriced, but he will almost certainly rip apart any light-vehicle in one round and can cripple heavier ones. All that on top of having the ability to re-roll his charge to help make sure he gets there.

And I agree Rhyleth, doom seers are wonderfully useful. I wish I would take a farseer with just doom, for cheaper. In all my 8th ed. games, doom seers have far more than made up their points simply by the extra damage inflicted upon the units they curse.

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 12:01:06 PM »
How do the named characters and the Avatar fare as options? The Avatar looks powerful heavily overpriced relative to Dreadnought-type units it generally resembles, and his combat stats don't seem noticeably better than most Phoenix Lords'. With the reduced significance of morale this edition he appears to have one of the weaker auras.

Avatar is a fantastic combatant. He is nothing even remotely like Dreadnought-type unit, because dreads are primarily ranged while Avatar is 95% melee. He is a specialised elites and character killer and he's good at it. His only drawback is that he is, just as before, slow and therefore at his best in infantry lists - which, in my opinion, generally cannot compete against mech.
His combat stats are so much better than any of the Phoenix lord's that they cannot even be compared. The only exception is Asurmen, but he is still substantially weaker. And don't forget that he is also much more durable than any of the PLs.

Really? Fuegan when enraged has more attacks and higher strength, and the Fire Axe seems to be a comparable weapon. He's squishier when attacked back, to be sure, but he also has an essentially identical (but longer-ranged) weapon, the same protection against mortal wounds, and is nearly 100pts cheaper.

Quote
The auras for PLs other than Asurmen seem very narrow. As combatants Karandras, Maugan Ra and Fuegan all seem respectable. I'm not sure how to evaluate Baharroth - as a whole Swooping Hawks seem fairly weak these days, and I think they need the numbers of a full squad to make the grenade packs effective, but Baharroth's higher chance to get mortal wounds is appealing. I'm not sure the fly high rule serves any particular purpose in 40k 8 as it's easy enough to reposition with the high movement rates of jump pack units and grenade packs give a further incentive to move normally.
When I look at the current design of our HQ choices, I always get a feeling that GW designers made a point of making Eldar character auras consistently weaker than those of their Imperial equivalents. This looks strange and overall kind of unfair. The only buff we get that is good enough to be comparable to what SM or IG get out of their characters is Doom.[/quote]

To be fair Doom's a bit better than comparable, and Guide is probably comparable since we get to reroll all our misses (albeit only for one unit) but I certainly feel envious when my Chaos or Marine opponents get their rerolls...

Quote
The only PL that seems worthwhile is Maugan Ra, for two reasons: first, he buffs one of our best long-range firepower units, and second, he dishes out some serious long-range firepower himself as well. According to my calculations, taking 5 Reapers + Maugan Ra is about as good in terms of damage output as 2 x 5 Reapers.

I really wish Maugan Ra had a better model, because I largely agree. I do like the look of Fuegan, and the unit he buffs is very hard-hitting, but he seems to want to be more an independent character-hunter than a Fire Dragon leader - he doesn't offer substantially more than an FD Exarch as a squad member.

I'm also at least interested by Karandras - he works well infiltrating alongside his unit, and is probably decent as a character-hunter in his own right, and he provides one of the best squad-specific bonuses.

Of course the running theme here is that all three are members of good Aspects. There's also Asurmen: that invulnerable save for Aspects is very tempting - though I wonder where he's best-positioned to use it to best effect. He's a close combatant but can't infiltrate with Scorpions, he's paying a lot to sit back and buff Reapers, and Dire Avengers don't share a range with any other units in the army - so unless you have a lot of them it doesn't seem that worthwhile a buff.

Offline Tweedz

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 12:15:09 PM »

Really? Fuegan when enraged has more attacks and higher strength, and the Fire Axe seems to be a comparable weapon. He's squishier when attacked back, to be sure, but he also has an essentially identical (but longer-ranged) weapon, the same protection against mortal wounds, and is nearly 100pts cheaper.


Fuegan, even at a maximum of 15 str (after losing all but one wound), will do less damage against anything short of a super-heavy with very high toughness. In fact, against anything of toughness 7 or lower the avatar does more damage per point of his cost then fuegen at max strength. And getting fuegen up to that strength before he does would be hard. And while they may have the same mortal-wound protection, the Avatar has a higher toughness, more wounds, and an invulnerable save. Lastly, in shooting the avatar gets the extra damage dice at 12 inches where as fuegen gets it at 9.

The avatar is a beast.

Offline Scorn

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Re: Eldar HQ choices in 8th ed
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 01:48:26 PM »
The only PL that seems worthwhile is Maugan Ra, for two reasons: first, he buffs one of our best long-range firepower units, and second, he dishes out some serious long-range firepower himself as well. According to my calculations, taking 5 Reapers + Maugan Ra is about as good in terms of damage output as 2 x 5 Reapers.

Can you elaborate on this?  I've tried running Maugan Ra with multiple Dark Reaper units in two games so far and I feel like the increase to Dark Reaper performance isn't worth the cost of the Phoenix Lord.

I had envisioned using Maugan Ra to shoot at small deep striking units (one regular opponent loves Scions) and counter-attacking as necessary. While Maugan Ra is capable of doing so it's not deterring anyone from committing deep striking troops and I feel that I've got cheaper options when it comes to counter attacking.
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