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The Armies of 40k => Tyranids => Topic started by: Travellar on July 2, 2012, 06:39:11 PM

Title: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Travellar on July 2, 2012, 06:39:11 PM
My opinion may be biased by all the Guard vs Guard games we played this weekend while learning the rules, but Flyers seem to be a key unit type in 6th ed.  The hard to hit rules make them extremely difficult to counter, while they also get to shoot considerably more than most other vehicles.

The biggest drawbacks to using Zoom all the time is it gets a little tricky trying to line up shots every turn, but the solution to that seems to be just zipping off the table, only to return with several more turns of shooting lined up.

As a Tyranid player, I'm not sure how to counter rocket pod Valkeries or Lascannon crazy Vendettas.  It seems like too much firepower to simply ignore, and the near impossibility of getting anything but front or side armor shots against them means we've precious little firepower that can A) Hurt them, and B) be taken in sufficient quantity to get hits.

Vector Strikes allow hits on side armor of flyers, but from my understanding, are limited to the basic strength of the creatures involved. (so Str 6 on Tyrnats, apparently without extra dice)

there's always the option of bringing along an ally who has decent chances against aircraft... Unless you're Tyranids.

Anyone got any ideas how to counter a Valkerie/Vendetta heavy army?
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: WisdomLS on July 2, 2012, 07:14:15 PM
I know it seems a bit strange for a tyranid player to use them but maybe get some fortifications, you could model them up to look niddy.

The quad guns and lascannons that you can take on bastions and aegis defense lines are pretty decent and have good odds verses most flyers.
There are a few things that help mitigate the powers of flyers, one of the random objectives gives skyfire, fortification, some of the psychic powers (i think). I think most armies will be relying on these for now with newer codex's getting better anti-air options as they come out.

Other than that weight of fire and getting re-rolls seems the way to go.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Exalted One on July 3, 2012, 02:28:35 AM
One could model a bunch of non-tyranid models to clearly look they are under tyranid influence and are using the fortification's weaponry to defend the 'nids... maybe? Or how about genestealer cultists?  :D
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 02:55:59 AM
First of all don't forget that flyers are 2HP. So two glances and that's it.

From the ground there isn't much you can do except a volley of shots of course. Storm Ravens, Necron Scythes and Ork Flyers have low armour value so a voley of hits from even a Deathspitter can do something. The problematic flyers are Vendetas/Valkiries and StormRavens as they have more Front and Side. The Valkyries have a  minimal back armour and since they have limited move you will have the chance to shoot them down with enough glances at the back.

Tyrants and Carnifex with dual Brainleech Worms - 12 twin-linked hits will bring down a flyer. (Don't forget that twin-linked works with spit-fire) Maybe not in a turn but in two... If you take wings for the Tyrant he may be able to be at the back.

Tyrant with wings has about 50% chance of glancing a flyer he flies over.

Hive guard should put a s8 hit for every 6 tries. It's a good chance and in a turn or three they will put it down. This might seem too much but three Hive Guard do not cost as much as a flyer and if they manage to kill it in three turns it will not have paid for itself but the guards will have.

Warriors with DeathSpitters - have a chance to bring down the things but not very easy

And finally Fortifications - we can use them but it's not as fluffy.

[gmod]Please quit it with the stats, we don't need to see them explained all the time.[/gmod]
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Pershore on July 3, 2012, 03:16:18 AM
I think filling the sky with brain leeches is the best looking option. You can also dogfight with harpies I believe.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 03:32:31 AM
I think filling the sky with brain leeches is the best looking option. You can also dogfight with harpies I believe.

Well you cannot swoop reliably as the harpy's S is only 5 and as far as I know flyer monsters don't have skyfire. Do they?
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Pershore on July 3, 2012, 03:48:29 AM
I think filling the sky with brain leeches is the best looking option. You can also dogfight with harpies I believe.

Well you cannot swoop reliably as the harpy's S is only 5 and as far as I know flyer monsters don't have skyfire. Do they?
Hmm I don't really have the flying creature rules down yet. Don't they get to fire at regular bs? (flier vs flier) if not then I guess I'm looking at a bastion with quad gun, and a couple of beasties with double brain leech
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: wren on July 3, 2012, 07:01:38 AM
FAQ's nerfed the fortification option, so it looks like it's either dogfights in the skies or just pure weight of fire to bring them down.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 07:04:36 AM
FAQ's nerfed the fortification option, so it looks like it's either dogfights in the skies or just pure weight of fire to bring them down.

What kind of nerf are you talking about? I cannot find a RuleBookFAQ. Only codices FAQs and the tyranid one has nothing about fortifications I believe.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: shaten on July 3, 2012, 08:03:17 AM
1. Fliers have a special rule to allow choosing to use the skyfire USR for a round. Creatures don't have this option.

2. Tyranid codex faq 3rd question in FAQ, no weapons from the buildings.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 3, 2012, 08:43:56 AM
As shaten has so concisely put it, Flying Monstrous Creatures do not get the option to select skyfire for a round (unlike flyers), so flying shooting is no more reliable for us against flyers than the rest. Shaten also puts his finger on why selecting fortifications is a no-go: according to the FAQ, Tyranids, not having the spare opposable digits, can't operate weapon emplacements.

So our best option, I would say, is probably to stock up on lots of devourers with brainleech worms. A single Hive Tyrant rocking those bad boys can expect, on average, 3-4 hits per turn. At strength 6, against most of the flyers I'm aware of, that likely leads to about 1 or 2 glances per turn, depending on what armour facing you're going for (AV12 of course your odds decrease a lot. Any flyers with AV12 all over the shop?). So with not a huge amount of luck, a single MC with 2 x brainleech devourers should be able to glance a single flyer to death. Take 2 or 3 such monsters (Carnifex work just as well) and you should be able to put a significant dent in your opponent's flying cohorts.

It's no sure fire thing of course, but it has to be said that there are a LOT of other races with similar, if not worse problems. Sisters of Battle, for instance, will have serious issues shifting flyers unless they take an allied flyer themselves. We don't have the best kit to deal with flyers in the game (cough cough Hydras cough), but it is doable.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 09:06:50 AM
Any flyers with AV12 all over the shop?
The Valkyrie/Vendetta and the Storm Raven. Not sure if we'll see many of the Storm Ravens but I am positive we will see A LOT of Vendettas. They are practically a steal for what they do and what they cost. Though their limited movement (only 90 degrees turn) will leave their behind (AV10) very easy to target, unless they go into ongoing reserves every odd turn.

Carnifexes and Tyrants with Brainleech worms will take care of these (Carnifexes are back on the menu boys).
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: shaten on July 3, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
i would like to add in disgust, GW calls this the cinematic rule set.

What is more cinematic than a flying MC latching on to an aircraft trying to rip it apart while the pilot makes desperate  jink moves to try to throw off the creature why the MC clings on and is moved by the random movement of the plane.

yhea, thanks GW......
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 09:52:35 AM
i would like to add in disgust, GW calls this the cinematic rule set.

What is more cinematic than a flying MC latching on to an aircraft trying to rip it apart while the pilot makes desperate  jink moves to try to throw off the creature why the MC clings on and is moved by the random movement of the plane.

yhea, thanks GW......

Well that's probably the idea of the Vector Strike. At least that's how I imagine it.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: shaten on July 3, 2012, 10:06:35 AM

Well that's probably the idea of the Vector Strike. At least that's how I imagine it.

That is like calling bud light a good beer.

I still don't think dakka fexs are good AA. Sure they can do it but it's a bunch of points that still dies like always. I'm thinking blast templates might be better. Or a tyranofex with preferred enemy to reroll ones?

also there are fliers with rear armor 11 so a rear shot may not help.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 10:12:47 AM

Well that's probably the idea of the Vector Strike. At least that's how I imagine it.

That is like calling bud light a good beer.

I still don't think dakka fexs are good AA. Sure they can do it but it's a bunch of points that still dies like always. I'm thinking blast templates might be better. Or a tyranofex with preferred enemy to reroll ones?

also there are fliers with rear armor 11 so a rear shot may not help.

You cannot use blasts on flyers.

About the rear armour I was referring only to the Vendettas/Valkyries because they are F/S - AV12 and cannot be killed easily by Brainleech worms. AV11 can though.

Tyranofex does have a chance but how will he get the preferred enemy? A tyrant standing close by? And rerolling just ones as you fail on all other dice too isn't very good. Also to expensive.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: shaten on July 3, 2012, 10:20:44 AM
couldn't remember about blast, rule book in the truck...

I normally had a tyrant with preferred enemy in the middle of my swarm, In 5th I used hormagaunts to shatter my opponents. (In 6th not so sure of it).

I just hate to bring dakka fexs to handle fliers, when they weren't point efficient before, now there still not efficient.

grumble grumble
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 3, 2012, 11:04:03 AM
couldn't remember about blast, rule book in the truck...

I normally had a tyrant with preferred enemy in the middle of my swarm, In 5th I used hormagaunts to shatter my opponents. (In 6th not so sure of it).

I just hate to bring dakka fexs to handle fliers, when they weren't point efficient before, now there still not efficient.

grumble grumble

Bringing any single unit to take out any other single unit is a poor choice. The beauty of dakka fexes is that there are very few things now that they can't affect. Since being AP- now has no impact on your performance versus vehicles they are awesome for taking on pretty much anything, and they're not too shabby on overwatch either provided you're not being charged by something that's going to utterly crush you anyway (high assault terminators!)
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Travellar on July 3, 2012, 11:06:17 AM
The Storm Talon is the only 2 HP flyer I saw in the rulebook, most of them are 3.  From what I saw this weekend, don't expect to get many rear armor shots on flyers, preciely because of thier low manuverability.  Simply put, if they can't manuver to protect the rear armor, they probrably can't get the shooty end pointed at you either.  By extension, there's no reason to leave them on the table as nothing but a big target that turn, and they may as well flat out right off the other side.  Then come back on from thier own table edge, get probrably 2 more rounds of shooting, and back off again.  (repeat till end of game)

12 shots, let's say 2 hits.
10 rerolls, let's round that up to 2 more.
4 hits, need 6's to glance, that's maybe 1?
3 Flak'o'fexes could get the job done, but that's nearly 600 points.

As for any other race and flak, One person this weekend referred to the Guard as being well, loosely moraled.  Anyone can bring a Hydra. (except us)
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 3, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
Which means that there are probably a bare minimum of 2 turns where I don't have to worry about them then? The first turn and the turn where they're flying off the board to avoid their asses getting shot to amphetamine parrot? I'd also like to point out that I think Hydras are now a bit weaksauce on the grounds that they're nearly useless against anything but flyers and non-gliding FMCs. They're a lot of points just to take down some specific amphetamine parrot. I've played flyers using very similar rules to these before, if not harsher, and while they were undoubtedly irritating, they were also beatable.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 3, 2012, 12:07:15 PM
couldn't remember about blast, rule book in the truck...

I normally had a tyrant with preferred enemy in the middle of my swarm, In 5th I used hormagaunts to shatter my opponents. (In 6th not so sure of it).

I just hate to bring dakka fexs to handle fliers, when they weren't point efficient before, now there still not efficient.

grumble grumble

Bringing any single unit to take out any other single unit is a poor choice. The beauty of dakka fexes is that there are very few things now that they can't affect. Since being AP- now has no impact on your performance versus vehicles they are awesome for taking on pretty much anything, and they're not too shabby on overwatch either provided you're not being charged by something that's going to utterly crush you anyway (high assault terminators!)

I second that. Plus if 6th is full of infantry instead of tanks there won't be that many anti-tank weapons that destroyed our carnifexes.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: WisdomLS on July 3, 2012, 12:34:24 PM
This tyranids not being able to use emplaced weapons seems a bit of a silly rule, could leave a big hole in nid air defences.

Now this is more of a question for the rules board but its relevent to this discussion so..

The rulebook seems to makes a distinction between emplaced weapons - those that are part of buildings and weapon emplacements - those that require a model in base to base to fire it.

You buy Quad gun emplacements for buildings and defence lines and the FAQ says nothing about nids not being able to fire those.
I can see people claiming that they are the same thing but they have different rules governing them and the names are quite clear as to what type you buy for each fortification.

So I think nids can still use lascannon and quad gun emplacement for anti air defense, what do you guys think?


Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 3, 2012, 01:22:51 PM
This tyranids not being able to use emplaced weapons seems a bit of a silly rule, could leave a big hole in nid air defences.

Now this is more of a question for the rules board but its relevent to this discussion so..

The rulebook seems to makes a distinction between emplaced weapons - those that are part of buildings and weapon emplacements - those that require a model in base to base to fire it.

You buy Quad gun emplacements for buildings and defence lines and the FAQ says nothing about nids not being able to fire those.
I can see people claiming that they are the same thing but they have different rules governing them and the names are quite clear as to what type you buy for each fortification.

So I think nids can still use lascannon and quad gun emplacement for anti air defense, what do you guys think?

I think you're wrong, because I can see no evidence for this supposed distinction between weapon emplacements and emplaced weapons. Find me an actual rules basis for those two things being different and you might have an argument.

While I agree that it seems somewhat unfair, it doesn't seem particularly silly to me. Can you honestly see a hormagaunt, or a Hive Tyrant, using a lascannon emplacement? With what? All those opposable thumbs that they don't possess?
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: shaten on July 3, 2012, 01:38:19 PM
Emplaced Weapons pg 96
Gun Emplacement pg 105

There is a difference, so tyranids should get the heavy bolter in the Imperial Bastion as they are Emplaced Weapons 
but the Gun Emplacement you can buy tyranids can't use since we can't manually fire..
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 3, 2012, 02:17:26 PM
Ah I see, my apologies I was misunderstanding what you were saying. In this course you are of course correct. All the FAQ does is prevent you from manual firing emplacement weapons. Automated weapons fire is unaffected unless otherwise stated. Unfortunately this is an extremely unreliable method of taking down flyers. I'm not convinced that you can't have automated fire on a purchased Gun Emplacement, I see no rules stating that the weapons which don't come with a structure have to be fired manually (unless I've missed something, I've not read the buildings rules as thoroughly as the earlier part of the rulebook). The problem is simply that you can't guarantee they'll even shoot at the right target, let alone hit it or cause it any damage.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: WisdomLS on July 3, 2012, 06:02:55 PM
This is the way I see it, I may be wrong.

Buildings can have emplaced weapons that are a built in part of them, they can either A: fire automatically, or B: can be fired by a model inside the building as detailed on P96.
This second use (B) is the one that is ruled against in the tyranid FAQ.

Some of the fortifications allow you to buy emplacement weapons, these are different to emplaced weapons, they are free standing weapons that need to be manually fired by a model in base contact, their rules are on P105, these are separate to any building that they come with, can't be fired from within the building or fired automatically and can be individually targeted and destroyed.

Even the one brought with a bastion is an emplacement meaning you need a guy on the roof to fire it, this is backed up by the fact that you can buy emplaced (not emplacement) weapons for the fortress of redemption.

As far as I see they can't manually fire the heavy bolters mounted on a bastion (or the weapons on a fortress of redemption) but they can make use of the quad gun or lascannon that can be brought with the defence line of bastion.

Whether that's fluffy or not is debatable and you could of course make tyranidy versions but I think that's how it works.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 4, 2012, 05:22:18 AM
I don't agree that there is a difference between emplaced or emplacement. For one thing, the Fortress of Redemption is the only Fortification in the book to use the term emplaced and not emplacement when referring to optional weapons upgrades. The two are the same thing. All Tyranids have access to all the weapons upgrades available to all fortifications, but all such weapons emplacements/emplaced weapons can only be fired on automatic mode
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Vizier on July 4, 2012, 11:43:13 AM
Its a RAW vs RAI argument.

I believe that RAI is emplaced = emplacement and Nids can only use auto fire.

But RAW doesn't forbid my Nids from manual firing that Icarus Lascannon and Quad Gun if purchased with the Imperial Bastion or Aegis Defence Line.  As this is looking to be the Nids best option for air defence, I'll be arguing RAW in competitive environments until we get FAQ nerfed - again.

Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Zilverscale on July 4, 2012, 01:37:20 PM
Alos pretty miffed about Vectored Strike.
Flying MC's can't use Smash while doing it -.-

So flying MC's, unless they come with S8+, are pretty useless vs most flyers.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 4, 2012, 01:40:28 PM
Alos pretty miffed about Vectored Strike.
Flying MC's can't use Smash while doing it -.-

So flying MC's, unless they come with S8+, are pretty useless vs most flyers.

With d3+1 hits s6 flyers have a very good chance of punching through most flyers (AV11) and at least glancing the others (AV12). Since Flyers have only 2 HP I think it's more than enough.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Zilverscale on July 4, 2012, 01:46:12 PM
Hmmm

On average 2.5 hits.
S6
AV11 = 0.833333 glances or better and 0.416666 penetration
AV12 = 0.416666 glance (same for S5 vs AV11)

Doesn't look like good chances in my book.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Reepy on July 4, 2012, 01:56:25 PM
Hmmm

On average 2.5 hits.
S6
AV11 = 0.833333 glances or better and 0.416666 penetration
AV12 = 0.416666 glance (same for S5 vs AV11)

Doesn't look like good chances in my book.

Isn't d3+1 an average of 3?

But even with your current calculation if flying monsters could just go over flyers and kill them what would be the point of flyers? Even a Melta cannot hope to kill a vehicle with just one shot (not even gonna calculate the hit and armor penetration dice, but you need to score at least a 4 on a single damage table roll to kill it which makes the chance of the best weapon against vehicles that has to come near a tank less than 50%).

So the tyrant has a penetration chance of 50% against AV11. Now let's say he has Brainleech worms too. Well maybe he won't kill it in a single turn but in two... probably.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: WisdomLS on July 4, 2012, 01:58:03 PM
Since Flyers have only 2 HP I think it's more than enough.

Sorry to be picky but I've seen you post this about flyers in a couple of places, you are incorrect. Only a single flyer has 2 HP's, all of the rest that are currently available have 3, a full list of the hull points for all vehicles can be found in the back of your BDB.

Back to the emplaced/emplacement discussion, whilst I agree that GW most likely meant for their FAQ entry to cover both types of weapon it didn't.

Going by the rulebook they are completely different types of weapons with different rules governing there use and how they are effected by and interact with other element of the rules.

The fortress of redemption is the only fortification that can buy emplaced weapons as the model comes with heavy bolters that can be mounted inside the building, this is what makes them emplaced.
The bastion and aegis defence line kits come with free standing weapon mounts and thus these are brought as emplacement weapons as they are not a weapon that is integrated inside the building and can not be fired by models inside the building only by models in base to base contact with the weapon model.

I know they sound very similar and are similar in use but they have separate rules from separate sections of the rulebook and work in distinctly different ways so I don't think you can treat them as the same, if you did which set of rules would you use?
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Gornon on July 5, 2012, 03:45:03 AM
I see one possible loophole we can use.  Under gun emplacement it reads that the type of weapon depends on the model itself.  It then gives a few suggestsions on shooting models.  To me, the stats of a gun emplacement are in the hands of the players, so why not take advantage of that fact?  I don't see anything preventing it in the rules.  I fully expect to see Ork Supa Mega Dakka Quads, Necron Gauss AA, and Tau Markerlight towers, why not Tyranids, too?

Why not make some sort of Tyranid "gun" emplacement?  Maybe a long-barreled Impaler Cannon with Skyfire.  Then add in the special rule "Synaptic Uplink: Only Tyranids may use this weapon.  No, the don't use their opposeable thumbless hands, they brain-jack in"  Of course, it's useless in a torny, but for normal games, it should be ok.

Edit: Also, the Skyfire result on the Mysterious Objective rule could help too if Lady Luck is smiling.  A full brood of Hive Guard getting Skyfire would be a nasty surprise for Flyers.

Edit 2: Or if the Implare AA Cannon won't jive, why not take the Quad-Qun entry and then tac on a modified special rule.  Broken Sensors: The Quad-Gun's tracking systems are damaged and can not tell friend from foe.  Any unit that get's close may regester their side as friendlies at the gun's bio-scanner.   At the end of each player's Shooting Phase, the Quad-Gun auto-targets the nearest of that Flyers or Flying Monster at BS 3.  If one player has a model in 3 inches, his units are exempt.  If both players are within 3 inches, the gun's sensors regester both as friendlies and the gun shuts down.

This rule is more impartial and adds the additional goal of needing to rush the gun emplacement which could add some fun the game.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Travellar on July 9, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
because once you start writing in your own rules for an AA mount with extra rules, you're opponets will likely be hesitant to allow it's use.

Something pointed out this weekend, the quad guns have the interceptor rule, which means we can use them in our opponets turn to open up on reserves arriving.  This doesn't do squat for BS2, but it does allow selection of the appropriate (air) targets.  Also, it is my opinion that we get follow on shots everytime the vehicles re-arrive after leaving the battlespace.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: mrspungebob on July 17, 2012, 07:07:12 AM
A flyrant with the Biomancy power Iron arm will have S7-9. If you manage to pick that power then the Flyrant can be quite effective at vector striking flyers.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown on July 17, 2012, 07:14:13 AM
Also note that one of the Mysterious Objectives allows units holding that objective may choose to fire as if they had the Skyfire special rule. While it is absolutely not something you can build a list around, it is something worth remembering in games.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: mrspungebob on July 17, 2012, 07:25:50 AM
The Telekinesis deck also opens up some possibilities, especially for a Zoanthrope squad. Objuration Mechanicum gives a single haywire hit and Crush gives a S 2D6 autohit, both surpassing the snap shotting and both having a fair range and the possibility to destroy flyers by penetration or hull points.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: shaten on July 17, 2012, 08:38:50 AM
A flyrant with the Biomancy power Iron arm will have S7-9. If you manage to pick that power then the Flyrant can be quite effective at vector striking flyers.

vector strike is base strength only.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: mrspungebob on July 17, 2012, 09:15:03 AM
True, bummer...
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Khira'lyth on July 30, 2012, 02:39:33 AM
In defense of differences, Emplaced Weapons are those physically *built in* to the fortification in question.  They can be destroyed by damage to the building itself.
Weapon Emplacements are weapons bought (typically) in conjunction with a fortification, but are *stand alone* weapons platforms.  The rules are found under Battlefield Debris - and in fact it is fully possible to have a Weapon Emplacement on its own in the middle of the battlefield - whoever gets to it gets to use it, and it grants cover.  It has *its own profile*, and can be shot/assaulted *separately* from anything else.

These two things *are* different - they have different rules.  Period.  Emplaced weapons can not be manually fired via FAQ, but can auto-fire.  Weapon Emplacements *do not* have an auto-fire mode, but we're not restricted from using them manually.  So go build yourself a Niddy defense line.

That aside... what we have in the book...

Vector Strikes at S6
Full Hive Guard squads
Telekenesis powers (largely on broods of 'thropes to maximize the 2/5 effective powers)
Brainleech worms

None of these are stellar, but each gives at least a moderate chance of a glance.  Pure gunships (ie, the ones that don't need to Hover for a turn to drop off cargo) are already giving up a couple turns of shooting via reserves and movement restrictions, leaving them more limited than people realize.

The best part?  Who doesn't already tote Hive Guard?  Dakkafexes/Tyrants, and some doods with Wings aren't bad options in general. 

Yes, other people can ally in Hydras, which they are likely to do... and then those Hydras will never touch us because all we have to do is *not* Fly with a Tyrant and it can only Snap Fire.  Waste of points much?
Powers are only swapped after you've seen your opponent, so if you don't need anti-flyer, take other powers on your 'thrope (or other bugs).  We don't have anything to straight drop them by the dozen, but should we?  What would the point be if we could just snap our fingers and make them fall?

Khira'lyth
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Daboarder on August 7, 2012, 10:09:52 PM
Just wanted to clarify something

It is "emplaced weapons"

and "gun emplacements"

The 2 things have 2 different rules as detailed on page 96 and 105 respectively.

Further more the FAQ specifies that tyranids cannot manual fire the "emplaced weapons" with no mention of "gun emplacements" this means that you can fire the Icarus lascannon and quad gun when bouthg for an aegis line or bastion.

HOWEVER!

If you buy a Fortress of redemption you cannot manual fire the las cannon or missile silo but you  must still automatically fire them as per the rules.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Travellar on August 8, 2012, 02:45:20 PM
Winged Tyranid monsterous critters gain no benifit against skyfire shooting by not swooping.  (or more simply, the Skyfire rule allows shots at flying monsterous critters, not swooping flying monsterous critters.)

still, I think that list is frightfully complete for our options.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: GaleRazorwind on August 9, 2012, 12:49:36 AM
I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that Focused Witchfire powers don't need to roll to hit. Beams, Novas and Maelstroms all specifically say that they do not need to roll to hit, but Focused Witchfire powers say that they work exactly like normal Witchfire powers, with the exception of the potential to target a specific model, and thus they need to roll to hit, so no auto hitting with Crush. You're probably better off keeping the Warp Lance at that point.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Locarno on August 17, 2012, 04:07:05 PM
Whilst I realise it's not an especially...afford able...option, having just read Imperial Armour Aeronautica, I can confirm that the new king of tyranid air superiority is the Harridan. Anything which can vector strike at S10 is going to clear the skies double-quick.

Yes, I'm aware it's an umpty-ump point gargantuan creature, but even so, holy god that's lethal.
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: 40kash1986 on August 23, 2012, 06:49:25 AM
So Winged Hive Tyrant with the telekinesis powers maybe worth it?
Title: Re: Dealing with Flyers
Post by: Travellar on August 24, 2012, 10:26:08 PM
Whilst I realise it's not an especially...afford able...option, having just read Imperial Armour Aeronautica, I can confirm that the new king of tyranid air superiority is the Harridan. Anything which can vector strike at S10 is going to clear the skies double-quick.

Yes, I'm aware it's an umpty-ump point gargantuan creature, but even so, holy god that's lethal.
There is that, and the multiple shots from the bio-cannons now.  (I finally got my book in today)  However, between being an Apoc model, and extremely expensive, I just can't see it as a viable model to field.