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Offline Lyonic

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Eldar Jetbikes
« on: October 6, 2015, 11:55:35 AM »
Ahoi Sailors o/ of space... I am writing a list for an upcoming tournament and was wondering how beat to use my jetbikes. My list has over 30 jetbikes in squads of 5. I was thinking on using some in reserves to grab late game objectives.. Anyone did that before? I also thought it was cool (and i just discovered it) that if say, i have a farseer skyrunner in reserves, the turn he comes in he can buff up. That would make me him likely to survive. What so you think of that tactic to avoid alpha armies? Thanks guys. If you have any experience using this model please write as much as u can! I am using scatter lasers on them too!

Offline haunt

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #1 on: October 6, 2015, 12:38:47 PM »
What are your units, since saying you have 30+ jetbikes only describes a facet of an army. We need to know more, since a tactic is hard to develop from what you have told me/us.

Jetbikes are awesome and they'll terrorize everyone with their amount of firepower. Talking about Storm of Furies back in the days.
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #2 on: October 6, 2015, 05:09:29 PM »
Don't really want to post my full list as its too near this tourney but any jetbile related tactics would be great if u can thanks!

Offline haunt

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #3 on: October 6, 2015, 05:50:31 PM »
Do remember that the tactics back then that you know off, still works today. The actual changes is the weaponries. Although the bikes are great they still have challenges such as Mid to Hvy Armour.If the weapon can wound it, then it can go down against out Torrent of Fury style. Saturation by fire from S6 weapons.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #4 on: October 7, 2015, 10:35:17 AM »
It all depends on how you configure your list and jetbikes.
If you have good psychic support I think it's better to have specialized units, however you should then have them in different sizes.
With 6x5 jetbikes I think you are best off taking 1-2 unupgraded (is that a word?) models in each unit, as that will mess with your opponents target priority.
It becomes like a cannonfodder tax for starting to damage each new unit for your opponent.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #5 on: October 8, 2015, 02:25:44 PM »


I love Jet Bikes.

In my experience squads of 5 are the way to go. In the current Codex I'd recommend a 2-1 ratio of 5 catapults bikes to 5 scatter lasers bikes or All scatter lasers. Don't take Cannons as you're usually better off with one of the other options.

In Malestrom they're probably point-for-point the best units in the whole game as you can be anywhere on the board in one turn which makes grabbing objectives really easy.

The rest of your army should compensate you're weakness. You have 3, heavy Armour, range and durability. Close combat is largely irrelevant as you're too fast to be assault, assuming your opponent is of roughly equal competency to you.

Dark Reapers work really well. 15 in an Aspect Formation with Starshot solves range and medium/heavy amour. Thats 18 crack missiles at BS 5 or better. Ouch!

Are good friend the Wraithknight either with D-Cannons or if you're feeling less WAAC Sword and Shield completely solves any close combat problem that MAY arise. - Take two farseers and cast invs/fortune on him and charge the thing straight towards the enemy lines. I wouldn't recommend this for a friendly game or you'll become 'that beardie guy'.

Crimson hunters work really well as way of solving Flyers and tanks and range -they're also great and pushing units off objectives. But if you're taking more than 1 i'd recommend either comms relay or an Autarch. Both if you take 3 or more.

Disdain Assault units, minus the Wraithknight in this army all the choices available to you are a waste of paint.
 
« Last Edit: October 8, 2015, 02:49:17 PM by Kah'reil Icedancer »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #6 on: October 8, 2015, 06:27:20 PM »
Hey thanks for these great replies. Was hoping to start a discussion on them so great! The issue i have with not taking them with upgraded guns is that when you say for example a bike costs x, for a mere x points more they get 4 strong shots and 36" range. Its almost like an auto include i feel.


this leads me onto the 5 man unit thing. If i have 6 objectives on the board.. When does it become viable to forgo their shooting to turbo-grab some points?

for reapers.. IM really torn. On one hand their anti air/skimmer is cool but against heavy armour rolling 6's is meh.


anything templatey with apMEQ or ignore cover is gna sting too

Offline Ibushi

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #7 on: October 9, 2015, 01:43:56 AM »
If you are spamming out jetbikes and play objective-based missions, take a few squads with lasers, and a few squads without.

It is definitely worth it, as then you dont have to worry about losing firepower from a squad to take an objective, and you force the other guy's hand into shooting a junky shuriken catapult squad in their turn.

If you want to win by dominating the other guy, take control in the deployment phase. If you don't want to do that or you can't for some reason, then do some reserves.

Without an autarch and/or comms relay, reserving is not a reliable strategy to use unless you have to.

Dark Reapers are the business, especially paired with a sword wraithknight for backstop. ouch.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #8 on: October 9, 2015, 03:03:37 PM »
If you go lasers on every bike the army plays very differently and you weakness change a bit so also what you need to take to compensate change.

Long range isn't a problem anymore so dump the reapers, short range however does become a problem as scatter lasers need to keep 30"+ away from small arms fire to reduce incoming fire as you MEQ toughness and save modles that take leadership tests at x when they take only 2 casualties are nearly 30 points each! :o

Now you should consider warp spiders, hold them back behind some cover, you could keep them in reserves but i wouldn't recommend it most of the time. They now act as a counter assault  unit that can really lay some hurt on most codex's.

Your lack of durability is now even greater (as you have less models) and the squads are expensive, you need to stay out of range where ever possible. As you'll still need anti-tank and anti-flyer Crimson hunters are easily the best option you have after taking the virtually compulsory wraith knight. - Making sure to either a comms relay and/or an Arutach. I've seen sooo many games ruined because that unit you desperately need keeps rolling ones until turn 4.

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« Last Edit: October 9, 2015, 03:35:30 PM by Irisado »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2015, 05:16:35 AM »
I didn't take a wknight in afriad. But i do feel that my farseer taking guide and prescience with the spirit stones, that 40 scatter shots will do am average 4 hp's do an armour 10. Even if it makes them jink in good with that!

I am finding it difficult to keep 30" away from stuff with my jetbikes though. I think having 30 bikes one the table, its hard because they take up so much space.


regarding not taking scatter lasers on bikes.. For the price of a warlock skyrunner, i can give 5 bikes 4 scattershots each with 36" range. Like upgrading bikes is i feel manditory considering each troop slot is valuable!

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2015, 08:36:06 AM »
Keeping ~30" can in terms of achieveability depend on your opponent.

I prefer a ~2:1 ratio I talked about. The WK is one of the best units in the game you don't have to take it but 2 D weapons with a 48" threat range will put the fear of God into your opponent.

If you go with the 100% laser option that really eats into your points but removes the range problem you have with the catapult bikes - It's a trade off.

A lot of regular players talk about Backfield, Midfield and Opponents Deployment Area. Scatter bikes a really for the Backfield where they can stay out of range, they're not great at midfield and should really avoid the Opponents deployment under most circumstances. - Ignore anybody who tells you to mix guns in squads as that messes their purpose up

A typical 1500 point army for me would be.

3x Squads of 5 Bikes with Catapults - Midfield
2x Squads of 5 Bikes with Lasers- Backfield
Farseer - Bike- Roll all on my codex's powers - Guild/Pres isn't as good as it was in 6th. Invs/Fortune is what you need, but i'd recommend taking 2 seers if you're going for that.

2x Walkers with 2x Bright Lances each
3x Squads of 5 Reapers with starshot upgrade - Aspect Formation.
Crimson Hunter Exarch

Option Kicking out 70 long range shots per tern of anti infantry
Option of Kicking out of kicking out 26 Str8 shots - mostly BS 5 - some lance shots
40 scatter lasers

The 100% laser has some changes

6x5 bikes with Scatter Lasers
2x Farseers - Bikes - roll for Fortune and/or Invis
Knight - Double D Cannon
Crimson Hunter Exarch

The WK is essential as are fortune and Invis as the WK has a big portion of my anti tank and is a fire magnet. Fortune/Inivis are help to deal with my durability problem. What is know as a force multiplier. The WK can also keep units away from my bikes.
 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 08:44:59 AM by Kah'reil Icedancer »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2015, 12:01:03 AM »
The only weakness i can tell with spamming jetbikes is that you need something to kill a14. IM torn whether to suit up some solo viper units with lances or use something like wave serpents with fire dragons? I don't have much else in the way of anti tank models barring war walkers bit if im honest id rather keep the 12" move if possible. I always felt eldar struggle with long range anti-tank. Bright lances are hot though.


as for reapers.. A unit of x5bikes will shred t4 units.... Even with MEQ save :P I can down aircraft with enough bikes Bt again the a14...

i don't have a flyer but i feel fliers are expensive because its like 2 lance shots and the other 2 shots will need 6's. That's off it comes on. Idk. I need to think about it more i guess. I am not a fan of the WK because in trying to run a de-centralised army because my local meta atm is turn 1 alpha. The Wk is usually the first thing to go. 3 centurions via skyhammer will wreck him.

I am running am aspect host of 25 spiders as again the shutiken cannon-like weapons are great and they can soak up alot of direct fire.

Are fliers really that good at killing tanks? Like i could buy 2 war walkers with bright lances for 1 crimson hunter... Bmmm
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:06:53 AM by Lyonic »

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2015, 08:59:28 AM »
I always felt eldar struggle with long range anti-tank. Bright lances are hot though.

No not in the slightest. Eldar have more D than anyone else. D-Cannon & Heavy D Cannons will put the fear of god, in friendly game most players i play don't even bother taking AV 14 as they know i'm penetrating on a 2+ and a 6  means "Please remove your model".

There's two ways to go Quality and Quantity. I prefer Quantity, Fire Dragons are a particularly poor choice in my opinion, very expensive, poor range and they need a delivery method, Falcon/Wave Serpent.

AV 14 really isn't that common, and the tanks that have them usually are quite expensive and you can deal with AV 14 with Str8 - 1 in 6 hits. If you  can kick out 24 shots per turn that should be enough. - See the reaper list i posted. - Quantity over Quality. - Unless it's a WK ;)

Crimson hunters a fine for dealing with Lehman Russ' as they can access their side amour value and they have enough to put some hurt into 14/14/14 tanks.

Regarding the WK it really does solve many of the problems you can get. I don't know why you're worried about an Alpha Strike? They're not really a good idea anymore if you opponent wants to do that, let him/her and sit on a bunch of objectives on the first turn. You do know poisoned and Snipers are on 6's to wound? And you have feel no pain and you can make the thing invisible too. If your opponent still takes in down on turn one, take your hat off to them, that's no easy feat.

Yes i know 50% of time them they'll get first turn but 50% of the time you will.

The WK is actually so good some tournaments/clubs have a no superheavy/gargantuan rule. Invis  is so good it's often disallowed/modified. 

Regarding catapults and MEQ vs Reapers. The best gun in the world isn't worth a damn if it's 1" out of  range you'd find the catapults short range is a problem on the 1st 2 turns (which are more often on not when the game is won or lost).

Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2015, 12:07:05 PM »
I'm not so sure about the reapers, against AV13-14 they struggle, and they have no answer to TEQ.
Centurions with grav-guns in land raiders are going to laugh at the reapers.
Reapers are still not good against flyers, even with an EML exarch.
Aginst AV12- transports the reapers are OK, but now they are in the scatterdomain.

Along with any 30 bikes the EML vypers are not bad, however I'd like to recommend 30 hawks, they have both the quantity and the quality.
90 shots @BS5 with an effective range of 42+D6", In addition they have 30 haywires with an
effective range of 18(+2D6)". They can even hit flyers better than guided reapers with those haywires. All this for about 100 points less than the 15 reapers.


As I mentioned earlier with psykers in the list I would use different sized units, to take full advantage of their blessings, here is an example of what I would do:
2x Bikeseers (1 stoned)
9x Scatterbikes
2 Units of 5x bikers with 4x cannons/lasers (no mixing cannons and lasers within the unit)
3x3 Naked Windriders.
3x10 Hawks with Exarchs.
D-Knight with 2xStarC
(All puns intended)

This is almost 2K, cutting down to 1.5K you could drop 20 hawks, 1 bikeseer and the knights StarC. You could even drop all Hawks and take that CH-Exarch for AA.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2015, 12:28:35 PM »
While I don't agree with everything the above poster is saying. I count 1+ vote for double D WK! Trust us that thing is actually unfair.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:30:17 PM by Kah'reil Icedancer »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2015, 06:49:24 PM »
I think if i took a more balanced list, i could incorporate reapers and maybe hawks
 i don't own either in afraid. I always went by the mentality of having 2 things to kill tanks incase one dies and ive never not had the wk without the glaive. Thinking about it more i kind of think a melee wknight going in solo to smash tanks while my scatters rain down some hell could work. I just need to make sure the knight is buffed up. Against drop pod armies ibplan to start the majority of my bikes in reserve and just leave them some warp spiders (who will hopefully be placed in LOS blocking or near) to shoot at!

Offline haunt

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2015, 09:46:18 AM »
Answer as a good support for all around are Wraithfighters, since it is a flyer it is already AA. Being D-Scythes they should be enough against any armour value.
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2015, 04:03:57 PM »
Im really struggling but i figure who cares ill post my list.

farseerskyrunner, shard and stones
autarchskyrunner, lance and mask

windriderx4 +warlock spear

scatbikes x5
scatbikes x5
scatbikes x5
scatbikes x5
scatbikes x5

WKnight

aspect host
warpspider x 5 + e
warpspider x 5 + e
fire dragons x6 + e
+ serpent/lance/shuriken can/ ghost matrix.


ok there it is. What u think?

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2015, 05:01:51 PM »
Things I like

All the scatter bikes
Warp Spiders
Knight
Farseer

Things i don't

Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent
Autarch

I'd Swap the the Dragons for a Crimson Hunter maybe two, gives you an anti air option and some range on your anti amour option. I think you'll end up suiciding the Dragons. If you do that then you could keep the Autarch, bare in mind though he is a 100 point model and all he can really do is lend his leadership to whatever squad he's in and help out with reserves.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: Eldar Jetbikes
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2015, 05:07:13 PM »
Its mainly reserves he is therefore, he will be fearless because hes in the 4 bike squad with the seer. I just have to be able to rseve stuff like wknight or command squad if im against alpha armies. Its not fun dying before u can buff up. Also firedragons are for deep striking terminators and dreadnaughts and yes... Yoloing them into something if i need too. If they have flyers i might keep them off table and if their flier comes within 18" of my edge... Come on 6, disembark, cast guide, battlefocus and shooot it down :P. I really like firedragons they blow stuff up on 4s man xD

 


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