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Offline Fenris

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Command point recycling.
« on: November 5, 2017, 07:45:37 PM »
I've only looked into codex craftworlds for this one, but I think it may apply to several codexes too.
There are stratagems that are used "before the battle" that cost you command points for example there is one that grants you more relics. You can either get 1 more relic for 1 command point or 2 more relics for 3 command points.

There are also stratagems that are used "during deployment".

However if I bring an Autarch, I get to recycle these command points with a dice roll but only if my "Warlord is on the battlefield".

The question I have then is, can I recycle these command points?
Only the "during deployment" ones if the Autarch deployed before they are used?

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Offline magenb

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #1 on: November 5, 2017, 09:34:31 PM »
The wording for path of command is rather specific. If he's the warlord, army is battleforged, he is on the battlefield AND you are using a stratagem then the CP's gets refunded.  There is no mention of game turn or phase :)



Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #2 on: November 5, 2017, 09:37:21 PM »
The wording for path of command is rather specific. If he's the warlord, army is battleforged, he is on the battlefield AND you are using a stratagem then the CP's gets refunded.  There is no mention of game turn or phase :)




Yeah, to me it's quite straightforward. This means:

Any CPs spent BEFORE the Autarch is on the field, you don't get to roll.

Any CPs spent AFTER the autarch is on the field (say you deploy him onto the board, THEN do Cloudstrike) you DO get to roll.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #3 on: November 6, 2017, 08:18:05 AM »
OK, I take this as I am actually allowed to use both webway strike and treassures of the craftworld after I have deployed the Autarch, potentially swapping the Autarch powersword for The burnished blade of eliarna once I know I'll be fighting orks, or against others take the firesabre?
Then use the webway strike to deepstrike 2 units.
After that I will redeploy using phantasm.
After all of that happily roll 8D6 and hope to recycle as many command points as possible?

My concern is when "before the  battle" is no longer considered to be "before the battle" because the battle has already begun?
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #4 on: November 6, 2017, 02:05:15 PM »
OK, I take this as I am actually allowed to use both webway strike and treassures of the craftworld after I have deployed the Autarch, potentially swapping the Autarch powersword for The burnished blade of eliarna once I know I'll be fighting orks, or against others take the firesabre?
Then use the webway strike to deepstrike 2 units.
After that I will redeploy using phantasm.
After all of that happily roll 8D6 and hope to recycle as many command points as possible?

My concern is when "before the  battle" is no longer considered to be "before the battle" because the battle has already begun?

The Stratagem Treasures of the Craftworld must be used BEFORE deployment, so you can never use your Autarch command point reclaim with it.

The Stratagem Webway Strike must be used during deployment, which means it matters whether you use it before or after you deploy the Autarch. If you deploy the Autarch on the table, THEN use Webway Strike, you can roll to reclaim points.

The Stratagem Phantasm must be used at the start of the first battle round, after deployment, so as long as your Autarch is on the battlefield (and not, say, in reserve or inside a transport) you can roll to reclaim points.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #5 on: November 7, 2017, 08:32:23 PM »
I take it you are saying deployment units is part of the battle, but deciding mission or setting up the terrain is not. While I wouldn't have any problem playing it that way, it's not at all crystal clear to me because it could just as well be interpreted in several other ways, for example, once you have decided the mission, the battle starts. This would be before deployment, so the treassures of the craftworld CP could be recycled.

Or possibly, the battle do not start until immediately before it's the first players turn. (after cease the initiative) This way neither webway strike nor phantasm would allow CP recycling if the Autarch is among the affected models.

If you could point me to a rule that supports either interpretation I would appreciate it, because I couldn't find it in the free rules, codex or FAQ's. Any interpretation is fine, I just want to avoid a rules debate every time I want to play someone.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #6 on: November 7, 2017, 09:40:34 PM »
It doesn't matter what's part of the battle or NOT part of the battle. Deploying, setting up missions, terrain, whatever. None of that matters. Why? The Path of Command doesn't talk about "during the battle" or not "during the battle." It has only these requirements:

1. Army is battle-forged
2. Autarch is Warlord and on the battlefield.

That's written on Page 79 of the Codex. It doesn't talk about the "part of the battle" or "during the battle" or "before the battle" or WHATEVER. It doesn't say the battle or game has to have begun. Beside battle-forged, and your autarch being the warlord, the ONLY thing it requires is that the autarch be, and I quote, "on the battlefield" at the moment you spend the CP. Whether or not the battle has begun is irrelevant.

So, to check whether you can roll to get a CP refund, don't check whether you're "part of the battle" or "when the battle starts" or anything like that. Look at Page 79 of the Codex. It asks whether or not the warlord-autarch is on the battlefield or not. Then, look at the battlefield. Is he on the battlefield? This is the only question that matters. There is no requirement anywhere that this ability only work during the battle. All that matters is whether or not the Autarch-Warlord is on the battlefield.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2017, 09:43:39 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #7 on: November 8, 2017, 09:44:48 AM »
While you are correct the path of command does not care when it is, the stratagems do.
Not all of the stratagems, but some of them which I think we have agreed upon which ones are the problematic ones.

Treassures of the craftworld says "before the battle" not "BEFORE deployment"
Webway strike says "during deployment"
and
Phantasm says "at the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn has begun"

They all have a clear order when to use them between themselves, problem is when within this timespan do the Autarch arrive on the battlefield?
Because path of command demands that the autarch to be "on the battlefield" among other things.

Before the Battle = Before deployment, is an interpretation.
Before the Battle = Terrain setup is another.
Before the Battle = Mission choosing is a third.
Before the Battle = At the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn has begun, is yet another interpretation.
(there are probably more interpretations)

All those interpretations are valid IMO, which makes it a mess, because 4+ ing it every time is not really an option, if there are no more information in the rules this needs to be FAQ'd.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #8 on: November 8, 2017, 10:34:47 AM »
I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that 'on the battlefield' includes before the model is actually deployed on the battlefield. Anything after that, game on.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #9 on: November 8, 2017, 11:57:08 AM »
Fenris, none of those interpretations is relevant to page 79 of the Eldar codex.  Blazinghand has highlighted the only criteria which matters.  There is no need for an FAQ.  The rule on page 79 is clear.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #10 on: November 8, 2017, 01:20:35 PM »
@Killersquid & Irisado: I don't think you see the problem, do I put the Autarch on the battlefield before or after the start of the battle?

If I can put the Autarch on the battlefield before the battle begins I should be able to recycle command points spent on treassures of the craftworld.

If I am not allowed to place the Autarch on the battlefield before the battle begins I would of course not be able to recycle any command points.

The issue is WHEN, not if or how.

I've read the codex and the rulebook about 10 times each and the closest timeframe I can get is "During times of need" under the remnants of glory on page 121. The stratagems on page 118-120 is what is in dispute of their meaning of WHEN they are supposed to be used and both on the pages and on the datacards it ambivalently says "before the battle" even under remnants of glory is says "before the battle".

Since we don't have an exact moment of WHEN the battle starts it's impossible to decide in which order things occur, and then the rule of 4+ ing it, kicks in.

An example order:

1. Place terrain
2. Decide mission
3. Start of battle
4. Deployment
5. Seize the initiative

But it could just as well be:

1. Start of battle
2. Place terrain
3. Decide mission
4. Deployment
5. Seize the initiative

or even:

1. Place terrain
3. Decide mission
3. Deployment
4. Seize the initiative
5. Start of battle

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Offline Irisado

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #11 on: November 8, 2017, 01:31:42 PM »
I understand what you're saying, but it's not relevant to the issue.  The only relevant question to ask is whether the Autarch is on the battlefield.  That's it.  Everything else that you have written is not relevant to the question that you have asked.  It's really not possible to be any clearer than 'on the battlefield'.
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Offline admironheart

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PM »
I wonder why it is so hard for everyone to understand Fenris' query.  It is simple.

WE ALL KNOW THE AUTARCH MUST BE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.....no need to say that for the 30th time please!!

The more important question is the timing of the actual strategems!

Do they happen at list building?
Do they happen at greeting you opponent?
Do they happen during deployment?
Do they happen during the game?
Do they happen during the battle round?

So Fenris really is asking....the stratagem of Treasures of the Craftworl happens WHEN????

Saying the autarch on the battlefield for the 31st time is pretty much speaking a completely different language since it in NO Way furthers to the discourse of the quandary presented!!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:52:57 PM by admironheart »
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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 09:00:52 PM »
Well, If you're playing ITC, then you choose your warlord trait 'pre battle'. Anything which happens simultaniously, you can choose the order of, and therefore would be able to roll for any strategem pre battle onwards. Easy.

for out of the book..

Looking at the missions rules, it talks about 'battle length', which is when you roll to see if the game ends or not. To me, this would give me the assumption that the battle starts the beginning of Turn 1 and goes until the end of turn 5,6, or 7 depending on how the dice rolls end up.

Therefore, I'd say that anything which is 'pre battle' would take place any time between mustering your force, and ending with the roll to seize the initiative.

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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 10:11:19 PM »
I read it as before the battle. Not before deployment. Amies for centuries have deployed, then faced off for hours before the actual battle commences. Unless you have your Autarch in reserve, Fenris, I don't see a problem in recycling.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2017, 05:59:53 AM »
So Fenris really is asking....the stratagem of Treasures of the Craftworld happens when?

That is not what the original question was about.  The original question was about Autarchs and the recycling of command points.  The response about the Autarch having to be present on the battlefield relates to that question.

What you're doing in your response is to move the goalposts beyond that original question and thus try to portray the answers being given as incorrect on that basis.  You are, of course, welcome to expand on the question, since it is still linked to the topic, but it would be more appropriate to simply say that this is what you are doing, rather than to make comments about the answers given by others. 

Please be aware that writing in caps is akin to shouting and is very discourteous, so please avoid doing that in the future.  Thank you.

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2017, 07:08:43 AM »
G'day Irisado!
Sooooo, having an opinion is against the rules? The beginning of my reply was, "As I see the rules". The ending was, " I don't have a problem". Who the hell are you to tell me what opinion is right or wrong?

If you had a different opinion and stated that... Fair enough. However, I just gave examples of why I agree with Fenris. If backing a fellow minded forumite is worthy of your horsepucky, then I will no longer join in on other discussions.

Will just Post my stuff and leave it at that.   

Offline Irisado

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2017, 10:24:35 AM »
Please note whose message I was quoting.  I wasn't responding to anything that you had written.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 10:54:19 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2017, 07:02:19 AM »
Irisado!
OH-MY-GIDDY-AUNT!! I am so sorry. It was scotch night and I read it wrong. Just ask Cavalier about my interpretation of things while on Saturday night.

From now on, no more forum on scotch night... Palease accept my apologies, Irisado.   

Offline admironheart

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Re: Command point recycling.
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2017, 02:59:01 PM »
So Fenris really is asking....the stratagem of Treasures of the Craftworld happens when?

That is not what the original question was about.
Yes but the OP in the 3rd reply did move the question in that direction. 

Quote from:
What you're doing in your response is to move the goalposts beyond that original question and thus try to portray the answers being given as incorrect on that basis.
As you can see if you follow the conversation...I DID not move the goalpost....the OP did and others either responded incorrectly or completely misunderstood his quandry
Quote from:
You are, of course, welcome to expand on the question, since it is still linked to the topic, but it would be more appropriate to simply say that this is what you are doing, rather than to make comments about the answers given by others.
To Myself, the original poster and possibly others is was quite plain the direction he was moving the conversation in.  I am not sure why you are 'dressing' me down....since the redundant answers were more the issue of those who did answer incompletely/incorrectly or more likely they were confused about the topic at that point.  This forum's basis is to provide knowledge so that as gamers we all have a clearer understanding of the rules. I was in way trying to #1 get the attention of those involved that did not get the gist of the conversation and pull them into the same sphere of thought. When students/employees fail to grasp a problem It is very typical to #1 get their attention so that the #2 information can be transmitted in a manner they can understand

Quote from:
Please be aware that writing in caps is akin to shouting and is very discourteous, so please avoid doing that in the future.  Thank you.
Understood....but read #1 above for my intent....I was not trying to be rude to anyone. My apologies (by the way Shouting is not always discourteous....It is used in classrooms, in emergencies and other functions)

Post Merge: December 24, 2017, 03:04:26 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Amies for centuries have deployed, then faced off for hours before the actual battle commences.

Wow that is a very impressive input to thinking about 40k warfare! I always think of very time sensitive conflicts.  I rather enjoy the thought that forces taunt each other prior to engaging.

Cheers mate and safe holidays. 

Oh did we every get an answer to Fenris' Query about when that Strategem is used?  I always thought it was in list building, much like choosing psychic powers.  But the latter is incorrect on my part...and now I wonder if I was incorrect on the Treasures of the Craftworld or Relics in general?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 03:04:26 PM by admironheart »
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