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Author Topic: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms  (Read 11549 times)

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Offline 2quiet

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2008, 03:41:02 AM »
Aww, jumped in too late. Was just about to suggest Trapezist or some such as a name. Doesn't really matter as far as names go I spose, as a made up unit, we can each refer to them however we want! (indeed, we can do this with any unit, as harlie proxies certainly show).

Game-wise though, I would prefer to see them lose Heroic Intervention, and simply have 12" movement and be classified as fleet, using 2D6 and picking the highest. This is for a number of reasons:

1) I don't like the idea of simply landing them basically into assault. There is a chance of doom in the case of scatter, and all that, of course, but it just doesn't seem to have the finesse of the Harlequin playstyle. With movement as regular (except with a somewhat reliable fleet roll) you really should be getting them into assault by the second turn or not long after that, but you have to be carefull with them in the meantime.

2) This would represent the way in which (I imagine) they move. To differentiate them from Hellions some more, rather than just plainly riding their boards, they are leaping off them, somersaulting, running along the ground, and leaping back onto them, at great speed. This means that the speed is not greatly reliable- but then again the Harlequins are simply great at what they do.

3) I don't want to have to deep strike them, simply because of the dynamics of Hellion Skyboards. I dispise the process of deepstriking Hellions as it is, given their shape and the practicalities of forming "circles" around the centre model. This might not be /so/ bad for Hellions, who you are deploying a bit away from the enemy anyway, but when your encouraging them to get into assault... I think it would just cause a lot of disputes. I'd at least play test it a bit, if you havn't already, to see.

Now, if those things are implemented, I think for 40 points something like skilled riders is called for (not usually for jump infantry, I know, but same game effect), and I'd also throw plasma grenades in.

I may have just invented a different unit than that you suggested (the Trapizists, or what have you), although obviously very much based on yours. I don't mean to try to hijack the idea or anything, I really love your concept, this was just my reaction to it, and how I would have done it had it occured to me, so I thought I would post it for you to see, possibly spark some more ideas for yourself again.

Thanks for the great read, great idea.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day- Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose

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Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2008, 07:07:47 PM »
Hrrmmmm......You raise some excellent points, 2quiet....(and no, I don't think you're stealing my thunder :P LoL!)

Let's see...first off, you're absolutely right -- the name of the unit itself really doesn't matter all that much; we can all choose to call them w/e we each deem the most practical title...although it would be nice if we could agree upon a universal title...for simplicity's sake, and to avoid confusion. But ultimately, the name is not nearly as important as agreeing upon the unit's tactical role, point cost, stats, special rules, etc. That is the part that must be congruent in various army lists.

Now, let us examine the issue of Heroic Intervention. Based upon what you're saying here, we can do 1 of 3 things:
1) Leave the unit as is, thereby completely ignoring your reasoning. ;)
2) Revise the unit's status through discussion.
3) Create another unit entirely (i.e. "Trapezists" or what have you), and essentially have different versions of the same unit.

Obviously, I'm not really being serious with the first option. But with regard to the other two, I do have some thoughts...

Your reasoning as to why these guys should not have Heroic Intervention, after some digestion, all seems pretty sound to me. For example, no other unit in the army can DS; as you said, it lacks Harlequin finesse; it is somewhat cheap and SMurfy -- the last thing I want to see Harlequins, or any Eldar for that matter, compared to; there is the possibility of doom via scatter, and at 40 points each, well... :'( ; it almost undoubtedly WOULD cause a lot of disputes, especially since they are a completely improvised unit in an unsanctioned army list!  :-\

So, hypothetically (atm), if they are to lose Heroic Intervention, I think we can all agree they must receive some form of compensation for this. I would like to propose any combination of the following:

a) (To go along with your idea, 2quiet) Grant them the Flip Belts special rule, so they may ignore difficult terrain.

b) Grant them Fleet of Foot, or always allow them to move 6" in the Assault Phase, just like Jetbikes.

c) To increase their effectiveness (and partially drawing upon the fact that I'm already adding cloaks to my conversions  :P), bestow them with the Cameleoline Cloaks special rule (like Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders). This would grant them a 5+ cover save, a huge asset when they are actually in cover (i.e. a 5+ cover save becomes a 3+ cover save), and thereby truly rewarding cunning. This would also be in addition to their Holo-Suits.

d) Give them grenades. (This one I'm not too sure about...think it might overpower them a bit...and practically every other unit in the game has to pay for grenades... :-\)

Please, let me know what you guys think -- are these reasonable/practical suggestions? Criticism of any kind is warmly welcomed. Additionally, feel free to add to this list or take a different spin on it. Again, while we could all make our own versions of this unit, it is my aim to reach a single, uniform profile that we can all embrace and agree upon.




"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline Yyseth

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 08:57:10 AM »
I don't believe Cameleoline Cloaks would work with Holo Suits fluffwise... after all that's what gives the harlies their save in the first place, and also having camoflage over the top of a brightly coloured suit of tricking light... would kinda cancel each other out.
I think the Fleet of Foot rule works nicely. They're meant to be able to assault in that sort of way anyway.
As for terrain, they're not quite so good and remember their boards will either negate flip belts or have something similar built in... due to the size of the board I'd say Skilled Rider would be better and would go nicely in combination with Fleet.

I like the ideas behind this unit. It's definitely in fitting with the style of warfare and gameplay the harlequins have.
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Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 06:54:15 PM »
Point taken, Yyseth. So then how about ditching Heroic Intervention, Flip Belts and Holo-Suits for Fleet of Foot, Skilled Rider, Cameleoline Cloaks, and Dodge, respectively? Would you guys consider that to be fairly reasonable, point-wise, and also, still fit with Harlequin fluff?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 03:56:01 AM by Spellbinder »



"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline 2quiet

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 02:52:59 AM »
I stick with Holo-suits over cloaks myself. I can't see a camo cloak being brightly coloured- and I can't see anything in my harlequins troupe bar jeters and mimes not being brightly coloured.

Again, I'm just trying to think about it from all the aspects of the hobby, not just the rules themselves. The rules for cloaks may be good, but I just don't know I'd use the unit, despite how cool it is, knowing I couldn't paint them up all colourful.
Some of my favorites:

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day- Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

I lay in bed last night looking up at the stars in the sky, and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling?

It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose

If ther's something you can deffinetely rely on it's gotta be- oh, theres not

Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 04:09:38 AM »
Well, if not Cameleoline Cloaks or Heroic Intervention, then what would you guys suggest to give these guys a fighting chance?

Holo-Suits may be fine for regular Harlequins, at 18 points a piece, not to mention the option of taking a Shadowseer w/ VOT, but for 40 points...these guys need something else. Either to help them get into CC, or to increase their survivability.

Just to think out loud for a moment here...Dodge almost seems like a reasonable option, but I cant see them actually making it into combat to for it to even be of any use; Deep Strike is not feasible because they cant assault immediately; D-Fields would be perfect, but would make them too expensive and impractical, IMHO... :-\

They do need something along this line though. Otherwise, they become much too vulnerable for their cost.



"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2008, 05:46:19 PM »
I see nothing wrong with coming up with a 'new' piece of wargear, which fluff wise works diffrently than cam cloaks, but practiacally does the same thing...

For instance, Spector Suits: Works to change the coloring of the wearer's suroundings, turning the foliage and ground into a multi color spectrum. The ground shifts and changes, the colors becoming one with the wearer, the very colors of nature itself bending to the will of the suit. This grants the wearer (the same effects as a cam cloak - not going to poast for copyright sake)

Thus we get the same effect, but still retain our coloful nature  ;D
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline 2quiet

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2008, 09:12:49 PM »
Yeah that would work, of course.

Otherwise, parhaps instead of making them more "protected" with armour type things, how about just making them faster? Make their fleet 2D6, or D6+3, or some such, so that you should be getting into combat very quickly. Even infiltrate, at a stretch, to represent such an ability to sneak (though I think this would be rather overpowering as the unit stands).

Would you mind giving us a full recap of exactly where we are up with this unit (i.e., set them out in profile form again)? I'm starting to confuse ideas and forget which we have decided would be good and which would be bad. I would put up a revision of where I think we are at, but I'd hate to risk being wrong and seeming as though I'm laying down a version which I expect to finalise the decisions when its not my thread!

Thanks.
Some of my favorites:

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day- Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

I lay in bed last night looking up at the stars in the sky, and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling?

It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose

If ther's something you can deffinetely rely on it's gotta be- oh, theres not

Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2008, 02:44:58 AM »
No problem. I apologize for not having done this already...


Suggested Name: Harlequin Specter. (feel free to use your own)

Point Cost: 40 points.

Profile: As standard Harlequin listed in Codex: Eldar. (I'm not sure if writing this out is in violation of copyright...even if it is a made up unit... :-\)

Squad: The squad consists of between 3 and 10 Harlequin Phantoms.

Type: Jump Infantry. (Fast Attack)

Weapons: Executioner.

Wargear: Skyboard.

Options: The squad may be equipped with Plasma and Haywire grenades for +3 pts per model and Tanglefoot grenades for +4 pts per model.

Special Rules: Holo-Suit, Dance of Death, Fleet of Foot, Skilled Rider.
--Other possibilities include:
  • "Specter Suits" (as Cameleoline Cloaks)
  • "Improved Fleet of Foot," as mentioned.
  • Bounding Leap
  • All of the above.  :D


I like both of your suggestions. Honestly, IDK which would be more practical. Either could work quite well. I'm also going to throw the idea of Bounding Leap (as gaunts) into the mix......??  ;)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 02:46:24 AM by Spellbinder »



"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2008, 06:49:56 AM »
My personal vote is to replace the holo suits with specetor suits, and add fof, perhaps the special version of it. I am unsure of this though. They already have an effective range of 18, and with fleet this becomes 19 - 24. With the 2d6 fof, we have a range of 20 - 30, which is a far amount of pain! Now, perhaps a d6 + 3, which will result in a range of 22- 27. Alternatvely, and my preferance, is that they may always move 6 in the Assualt phase, like Eldar bikes. This allows them to move uo the field rapdly on the first trun, and then be well in assult range the second turn. I think bounding leap, a total effective rang of 24, while strking the middle, would be way overpowered with fof or even with the camo cloaks.

So, Either
  • Camo cloaks and fof
OR
  • BL


And that should gve us a rather nice unit
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline 2quiet

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2008, 09:04:29 AM »
The problem I have with movement in the assault phase is its too similar too eldar jetbikes. Just... not very original at all. And when we are making a unit which is probably most comparable with Harlequin Jetbikes...

Yeah, I just think they should be more distinct.
Some of my favorites:

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day- Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

I lay in bed last night looking up at the stars in the sky, and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling?

It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose

If ther's something you can deffinetely rely on it's gotta be- oh, theres not

Offline Zemanova

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2008, 10:55:41 AM »
What about keeping them as Jump Infantry - The Discs of Tzeench do this - but maybe offer a form of turboboost that forces a mandatory dangerous terrain test?
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Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2008, 06:51:36 PM »
The problem I have with movement in the assault phase is its too similar too eldar jetbikes. Just... not very original at all. And when we are making a unit which is probably most comparable with Harlequin Jetbikes...

Yeah, I just think they should be more distinct.

I completely agree w/ this.

And this...

So, Either
  • Camo cloaks and fof
OR
  • BL


And that should gve us a rather nice unit


I am also open to the ideas of an improved FoF roll, as well as some form of a Turbo Boost ability. My only reservations towards these is how they would fit in fluff-wise...? I imagine the improved FoF could be more easily explained, if deemed necessary, but I am also curious to know how Turbo Boosting could be accounted for, given that neither standard HJBs nor Hellions/Skyboards have this ability..... :-\

...I really feel like a noob for even asking this....but can ICs (aka Chaos Sorcerers/Lords) mounted on Discs of Tzeentch Turbo Boost in some form or another? I have never heard this, nor have I ever had the privilege of playing someone who used this ability... If this is possible, how is it explained/accounted for??



"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline Zemanova

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2008, 06:04:04 AM »
No - Tzench disks don't boost but they do give give a bonus attack.
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Offline deStone

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2008, 10:28:26 PM »
Lol, random throw in on this, love what you got so far

I always wanted to see Hellions get something like this, so im just throwing it out as a consideration

perhaps these baddies could have a transport, and when they assault out of said transport they can perform (like hellions) a hit and run. But throw in a special rule so that if thier hit and run move brings them all within 2" of the transport they can re-embark.

That would be bad-ass (perhaps broken?) and of course would require a) a transport and b) allowing it to carry skyboarders
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 10:29:51 PM by deStone »

Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2008, 03:22:38 AM »
The Dance of Death special rule grants them the Hit & Run ability, so that's taken care of.  ;D

Having a special transport would be bad-ass, but then creates a few small problems:

1) We would need to create VDR for this unique transport. We would also have to purchase/procure an existing model(s), upon which to base our conversion, as well as various bits$$$s.

2) Seeing as how the Harlequins' only normal "transport" is the Venom, which itself can only be taken as HS, it seems a bit overpowered. It would also, essentially, make this unit significantly faster AND better protected. Additionally, it leads to the questions, "Can other Harlequin units board/take this transport? Why?/Why not?" All of these things could lead to unpleasant disputes. :-\

3) Fluff-wise, the Harlequins can only make wide use of the Venom due to the limited size of many of the Webway tunnels they use. And even that is sometimes too big. I could see these guys riding around in some kind of converted DE Raider, but am not sure it would be cohesive w/ Harlequin fluff. Also, the only "Assault Vehicle" in the game, at present, is the Land Raider -- literally a mobile fortress w/ a forward hatch. How do we justify ours?


I am sorry if I'm being overly negative towards this, but I feel that it would just create more problems than it would solve. I do think it is a very cool idea, and I really appreciate the suggestion, but IDK how to make it work...


Regarding the unit itself, here is my latest attempt to rationalize their special rules and reach a suitable compromise:

Special Rules: Dance of Death, Fleet of Foot, Skilled Rider, and...

--"Specter Suits"/"Crystalline Cloaks"/"Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoats", or whatever you want to call them: (*Insert Fluff Here*, i.e...)
Works to change the coloring of the wearer's suroundings, turning the foliage and ground into a multi color spectrum. The ground shifts and changes, the colors becoming one with the wearer, the very colors of nature itself bending to the will of the suit.
(*IMPORTANT PART*) In game terms this means Specters (or whatever you want to call them) have no armour save as such, but may always make a 4+ cover save, which is NOT further modified by actual cover. Weapons which normally ignore cover will ignore their special save (i.e. templates). Regarding CC, they always count as being in cover, normally gaining the benefits of a defended obstacle, but receive no save. Any model fighting a Specter in CC halves their WS, rounding up. (Sound familiar?  ;))

This would replace Holo-Suits. Aside from this, their profile remains exactly the same:
Suggested Name: Harlequin Specter. (feel free to use your own)

Point Cost: 40 points.

Profile: As standard Harlequin listed in Codex: Eldar. (I'm not sure if writing this out is in violation of copyright...even if it is a made up unit... :-\)

Squad: The squad consists of between 3 and 10 Harlequin Phantoms.

Type: Jump Infantry. (Fast Attack)

Weapons: Executioner.

Wargear: Skyboard.

Options: The squad may be equipped with Plasma and Haywire grenades for +3 pts per model and Tanglefoot grenades for +4 pts per model.

Special Rules: Dance of Death, Fleet of Foot, Skilled Rider.


What say you?



"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline deStone

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2008, 10:36:46 AM »
Quote
I am sorry if I'm being overly negative towards this, but I feel that it would just create more problems than it would solve. I do think it is a very cool idea, and I really appreciate the suggestion, but IDK how to make it work...

Oh hey know worries, i know very well the idea had many flaws and doesnt really fit the fluff, just popped into my head and i threw it out there

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #37 on: December 1, 2008, 02:26:46 AM »
I very much like this unit. I think it is pretty well balanced, and very fluffy too... now we just need to play test it to see how it holds up to combat. :)
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Spellbinder

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #38 on: December 1, 2008, 02:37:28 PM »
Excellent! That is EXACTLY what I was hoping to hear, faitherun. I would love to have further input from more of you, but honestly, this has been going on for a month now, and I really do want to play-test these guys already... ;) I feel, thanks to everyone's help, that this unit has progressed quite considerably, and has indeed achieved a nice balance and feel, both within a Harlequin Masque, as well as w/ other units in the 40K universe. I have no doubt that my opinion is inadvertently biased on this matter, but that is what I truly think.  ::)

Just running through it one last time, here's a quick recap:
-The unit exists, to begin w/, as an inexpensive alternative to converting HJB's, and because DE wargear has, up to this point, been excluded from Harlequin lists, for no apparent reason.
-The unit would be overpowered if granted Heroic Intervention, and would also make it cheese in the eyes of many.
-Flip-Belts would do nicely, but would create problems w/ fluff, seeing how they must ride Skyboards. Therefore, we settled on Skilled Rider.
-Taking grenades would be nice, but might also be seen as cheese, as practically every unit in the game must pay for them. So, grenades are granted as an option.
-Bounding Leap, Turbo-Boost and an improved FoF would give them too much range, again overpowering them.
-"Cloaks" and Holo-Suits would be too much, and would again conflict w/ fluff. However, not having any of this would make them too vulnerable for their points. Thusly, I suggest we settle on a hybrid between the two (AKA going back to old-school rules  ;)).
-The special rules Dance of Death and Fleet of Foot are granted to them, as this is congruent w/ the rest of the Harlequin list, fits w/ the fluff, and rounds out the unit quite nicely.  :D

So, here's the finalized profile, in all its glory:


Suggested Name: Harlequin Specter. (feel free to use your own)

Point Cost: 40 points.

Profile: As standard Harlequin listed in Codex: Eldar. (again, I'm not sure if writing this out is in violation of copyright...even if it is a made up unit... :-\ Would someone mind clearing this up, please?)

Squad: The squad consists of between 3 and 10 Harlequin Phantoms.

Type: Jump Infantry. (Fast Attack)

Weapons: Executioner.

Wargear: Skyboard.

Options: The squad may be equipped with Plasma and Haywire grenades for +3 pts per model and Tanglefoot grenades for +4 pts per model.

Special Rules: Dance of Death, Fleet of Foot, Skilled Rider...
*AND*
"Specter Suits"/"Crystalline Cloaks"/"Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoats", or whatever you want to call them: (*Insert Fluff Here*, i.e...)
Works to change the coloring of the wearer's suroundings, turning the foliage and ground into a multi color spectrum. The ground shifts and changes, the colors becoming one with the wearer, the very colors of nature itself bending to the will of the suit.
(*IMPORTANT PART*) In game terms this means Specters (or whatever you want to call them) have no armour save as such, but may always make a 4+ cover save, which is NOT further modified by actual cover. Weapons which normally ignore cover will ignore their special save (i.e. templates). Regarding CC, they always count as being in cover, normally gaining the benefits of a defended obstacle, but receive no save. Any model fighting a Specter in CC halves their WS, rounding up. (Sound familiar?  ;))


And there you have it.

I hope you will all feel free to begin using and incorporating this unit into your Harlequin army lists. I am quite curious to see what you think, and am looking forward to play-testing them myself.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed! Your feedback has been invaluable! :)

Just to be clear, I am still open to suggestions on the unit, but it is rather unlikely the profile will be changed further, as it appears to have reached that "perfect balance." (or at least, I hope you all think so...)

Please, feel free to play-test them and post your experiences. I will do the same, as well as setting to work on converting these guys and posting some pics already!  ;)



"Never apologize for asking questions, young seers. Through asking questions we find answers, and through those answers we gain greater knowledge of ourselves and the universe around us. Our race stopped asking questions once before and our complacency all but destroyed us. That must never happen again."

Offline Rasmus

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Re: The Phantom Menace: Harlequin Phantoms
« Reply #39 on: December 2, 2008, 02:51:04 AM »
Yes, a direct copy of the statline would constitute a breach of copyright. You are wise to leave it out.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

 


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