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Author Topic: Tarrin's "Take what you want" unit of the month discussion: Ard Boyz [troops]  (Read 4978 times)

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Offline Gutstikk

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Tarrin hatched this novel idea and I figured I'd give it support. I'd like to start this project off with discussion about Ork 'Ard Boyz, since there's a lot of thinking [and pretty sound thinking] that an Ork's best armor upgrade is another Ork. However, the option is there in the codex, and probably for a reason. So, without further ado:

Quoted from Tarrin
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There is nothing nicer than turning up to a tournament and seeing something else on the table other than the usual suspects. Every codex has a wide range of entries yet you often see the same units on show again and again. I imagine that, like me you get exceptionally bored of reading “Ard Boyz” lists which are themed on the same spammed tank, or set combo that is a game breaker. YAWN!

Well this thread seeks to redress the balance.

I will almost guarantee that we all have minis that sit on the shelf, gathering dust. Minis that we have paid good money for but just aren’t “flavour of the month”.

It is true that some units point for point are better than others, or that some units do have rules that make them hard to use, however I am a great believer that ALL units have their place on the table, and that you can take any unit and wield it effectively even under tournament conditions. For me personally, part of the fun of playing 40k is beating someone with an army that, on paper, should never be used. To take a sub-optimal unit and ram it down someone’s throat when they least expect it.

So I will set you a challenge.

1: Read the discussion on the unit selected in this thread.
2: Contribute your own views on how they can be used effectively.

And here is the novel bit.

3: Volunteer to take the unit to your next game, or even better tournament, and use them, using the suggestions of the community.
4: Report back.

Rules:
I: Be sensible: Any posts of the nature “don’t bother with this unit, take X, Y is a better choice, will be frowned upon. This is a discussion on that particular unit.
II: Be brave: it’s only a game, and don’t be afraid of rebelling against the accepted rules of 40k society.
III: Be honest: Actual reports are better than falsifications.

Ard Boyz. Discuss, then think about fielding them, and commenting back :).

Offline zero88

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It is pretty well agreed on that its not that 'ard boyz are neccessarily bad, it's just that with the new codex, boyz got a significant point reduction making 'ard boyz a less viable choice. Although I have never used them and do not have any 'ard boy models, I still like them.

Due to their points cost, I see them best utilized in lists which contain large amounts of boyz. In an all footslogging list their use seems suicidal since they will obviously be targeted right off the bat, but I think in speed freak or semi-mechanized lists they could prove to be relatively effective. Because of their up-armored nature, the place of a 'shock troop' seems to be best fitting. Normally Nobz accomplish this, but at a steep cost. a regular 'ard boy costs half of a normal 'shirt-save' nob and costs a third as much as an 'ard nob with cybork.

In the mechanized aspect, a trukk full of ard boyz are capable of making a hard hitting charge like most trukk squads, but will soak up return damage much better. I would use them as a means to whiddle down a much tougher opponent who normally does not want to be in close combat.

In the semi-mechanized list, I think ard boyz could be used to a much greater extent. If you have a large amount of boyz slogging up the field, a battlewagon full of ard boyz could be just what your list needs. They provide the shock troop resiliency nobz have at that cheaper price. Using them to tie up frontline enemy units could be brutal. Imagine your ard boyz in a wagon make a second turn rush to engage front enemy units. With the ard boyz resiliency, there is a large chance they could tie up the enemy long enough for your main footslogging force to arrive.

My final thoughts are making an uber-resilient squad by attaching them to the Mad Dok. Granted you wont have much control over where they roam, but with 4+/4+ saves they could do a world of hurt at the same points cost as a regular 'ard boyz squad.

However, since they have almost a double cost of a normal boy, numbers I believe will be crucial to the success of a mob of 'ard boyz. Remember they attack like regular boyz, so they are going to need a significant amount of back-up.

Just my initial thoughts, since I have never used a squad of them.

Offline Azonalanthious

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I personally think the 'ard boyz nitch is in trukk operations.  Other then our local nurgle player, I always seem to end up charging things with I4.  Which means I almost always see an annoying number of boyz go down without a single chance to krump somethin'.  Its rarely enough to be decisive, particularly since I try to double team with trukk squads, but its still a real shame and it can also mean that whichever squad took the casualties is out of it in effectiveness terms for the rest of the game since unlike footsloggers, they lack the spare boyz to just soak up casualties.  But toss 'ard boyz onto the table and you are now saving 3 times as many wounds as before.  Sure, heavy weapons will generally bypass the save, but when they are in a trukk they aren't being shot at directly, and in close combat, you might see 2 powerfists or powersword attacks to 10-20 regular attacks depending on what you are hitting.  Honestly, if we were not limited to 1 'ard boy unit, I could easily see myself taking all trukk boyz as 'ard boyz.

Offline Gutstikk

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The math hammer is what make sit interesting. Against enemies fighting with opera gloves [combat weapons], you get something like the following scenario:

96 attacks at boys      96 attacks at ard boys
48 hit                          48 hit
24 wound                   24 wound
20 die                         12 die

Meaning, in a unit of 20, you can actually live through 96 attacks with ard boys, and dish it back some :)
Whereas, with 20 normal boys, you lose the farm.

I don't count on making any 6+ saves with normal boys though, so to me it tends to feel like it takes 1 wound to kill a normal boy and 2 wounds to kill an ard boy. Of course, comparing 10 pts to 12 pts you don't get the extra attacks that another Ork would get you.

But in a defensive role, the ard boyz actually start to make sense for their points, even if standing boots to the ground.

Offline Azonalanthious

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Well, and another quick point for a starting ork player is less $$$.  Fielding 50 boyz vs 30 hardboyz is a noticable amount of savings.  Obviously not a long term or tactical benefit, but it is something to keep in mind.

Offline angel of death 007

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My thinking was why pay so much for the stats of a boy but with better save especially when I can get almost 2 boys for the same price.  That was my thoughts in the beginning anyway.  But now with knowing that the more boyz you have the harder it can be to manoever them not to mention the more squads you have they harder it is to keep them near a KFF mek. 

Then I came across reading about the Mad dok and it all kinda made sense.  Most people use Nobz for their CC effectiveness, ability to take advantage of wound allocation, and because they are harder to kill.   But lets compare basics to basics..    Assuming the your nobz you add in a painboy.  To get the same effect as a regular ard boyz squad you give them heavy armour.   

Throwing out the wound allocation thing as many players who use Nobz don't do it for that (or atleast shouldn't for a very unfair and exploitable loop hole IMHO).  The ability to take more / different weapons and options is huge but let's put that on the back burner for now too because that is what makes Nobz unique.

Nobz w/ Painboy and eavy armor
max squad 10 = 20 wounds
advantages: weapons / wound allocation, multiple wound, extra attack
disadvantages: small unit size, can be insta killed, high cost at XX points a Nob, large pie plates / ordinance (will make a mess of them with insta kills)

ard boyz w/ mad dok
max squad 30 boyz = 30 wounds
advantages: low cost at well under half that of eavy armored nobz you get 2 boyz +,  more wounds in a squad, can take a lot more wounds before having to check, can work as a stronger shield and larger one as a forward unit in front of another squad of boyz, counts as troops/scoring reguardless of HQ.
disadvantages: lack of different weapon options, large squads can be harder to maneover, mad doks' rules
 
Basically I see it as a very good tarpit and CC forward unit.  Well it is slow it can weather a massive amount of hits before it's effectiveness is brought down.  Not to mention it can be used as a great unit to hold a forward objective or contest it over several turns.  There are other options for this as well but even Nobz due to their low model count require bikes, trukks or battlewagons. 

I think that a squad of ard boyz is a lot more resiliant, harder to deal with and can contest or hold an objective better than most if not all of our units.  Best part about it is the forward objective doesn't have to be in cover as it would need to be with boyz. 

For me they work as one of my stronger forward units in both my kan wall list and green tide list.  My two favorite lists to field.
« Last Edit: September 5, 2010, 11:57:25 PM by angel of death 007 »

Offline OD from TV

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Gotta say I love the idea of a Month-Long discussion, and there isn't a better unit to start out with than the Ard Boyz.

I've toyed around with them a bit, but this thread is making me feel the need to do more than just toy around with them, but to truly consider them.

Quoted from Tarrin
Quote
3: Volunteer to take the unit to your next game, or even better tournament, and use them, using the suggestions of the community.

I know I'll take em, will you?

As already been shown through mathhammer Ardboyz on average are able to stick out in an Assault longer, and in the end are cheaper than Nobz, but I have another idea about these gitz.

I think Ardboyz could actually be really worth their weight in gold plated teef in a Planetstrike defensive force probably held up in an Indomitable Fortress with an escape hatch.  As soon as an enemy gets within 18" or so you drop the escape hatch and pour out the Ard Boys straight into an assault (or if they're propa Bad Moon Ard Boyz they'll shoot than assault).  Since the ArdBoys are more survivable they'd be able to last longer before you have to pull reinforcements down to protect the Escape Hatch entrance to the Fortress (and the Fortress will likely receive less attention as every time I've plopped down the escape hatch everyone wants to use it to enter the fortress).

I haven't played a Planetstrike game using them (for that matter I've yet to play a game of Planetstrike where I was the attacker) and Planetstrike games are fairly rare (possibly even moreso than Apoc games), but the Ardboyz would be ideal for holding off attackers and defensive lines where the enemy is taking the fight directly to you.

While I can't guarantee that the next game I use those Ardboyz in will be Planetstrike, I will be writing up a Batrep for it, and I encourage everyone participating in this discussion to do the same.  After all that was part of Tarrin's original idea with this type of thread, and we all have the whole month to do it.

Peace
~OD
Truly beautiful work. That's the kind of stuff that makes a true mekanik cry tears of joy.
OD, you once again prove that your are still the freakin Da Vinci of plasticard

Offline Gutstikk

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I certainly will be using them in the next game I play :). And it should be coming up pretty soon.

I like ard boyz because they make a nice wall. You can keep them in the way of things, don't depend on cover, and they go well with shootas. I tend to put mine in a vehicle but I've got an army redesign in mind that'll be seeing them as an infantry unit at the larger sizes, 20-30.

Offline Jack_Merridew

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I use a squad of 20-30 with a nob in almost every game.  I know that it's a point sync, but it's such a pain for my opponents to kill them.  I've used them to tarpit, but my favorite tactic with them is to spread them thin, and in front of two other 30 boy squads behind them.  Since they are 30 strong, at 2" max spread, two deep, 15 across, they cover 34+" of board and offer a 4+ cover save for the two squads behind them. 

I throw in a KFF mek in the middle and they are incredibly resilient with a 4+/5++ type save. 

I play a necron player more often than any other, and I love dropping them in the way of his wraiths.  Thier str 6 attacks and high initiative normally devastate my boyz on charge, but since it's not a power weapon, the 'ard boys were great at winning the day against three wraiths and a destroyer lord.

In a small points game I wouldn't bother, but if you have the points to spend I'd do it every time.

Offline rosvojaska

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I play a necron player more often than any other, and I love dropping them in the way of his wraiths.  Thier str 6 attacks and high initiative normally devastate my boyz on charge, but since it's not a power weapon, the 'ard boys were great at winning the day against three wraiths and a destroyer lord.
I think this is the optimal use for them.

In general tarpitting with them works especially well, because the main hindrance to tarpitting with boyz, the No-Retreat! wounds, can be saved with the 'ard boyz armour.

Offline Jack_Merridew

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It garrantees me more rounds of Nob PK action against units as well.  Great for Deathguard or MEQ equivalents.  It general they will always outnumber the squad they are facing, and as long as there is only one power weapon in the opposing group, you will win by attrition. 

Offline SKEETERGOD

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I used a squad of them last week in a 5k game (or 10k as each side had 5k points) two on two; orks reinforced by eldar and space marines reinforced by space wolves.

My squad was 12 in a truck with one having a big shoota and the nob with PK and Boss pole. Standard truck (my army anyway) with red paint, ram, and plank.

The dash across no mans land made easy by having a truck, used the boarding plank to attack a rhino and killed it, then the blood claws that were inside bailed out with one dying to the explosion. His squad also had Lukas the trickster. His blood claws assaulted my truck and did nothing as they couldn't hit it (had moved 13" last turn so he needed 6s) on my turn they zoomed on by and got out right next to his rune priest, shot and caused him a wound then assaulted the rune priest and killed him with the loss of only one boy.(death by power weapon) The long fang squad nearby got nervous and fired their three lascannons and two missile launchers at them and only killed 3. On my turn the ard boys assaulted 5 sky claws that had been sent to protect the long fangs, the armor saves were wonderful only losing one boy to the claws and the ard boys killed 3 and the nob killed the last 2 (or vice versa, regardless the claws were wiped out) and ended up consolidating into cover on the other side of the wall near the long fangs. The entire SW army shot everything they had at the ard boys to try to protect his long fangs which allowed the rest of my army to move completely unmolested. The only survivor was the nob who passed his LD. On bottom of turn 5 he assaulted the long fangs and even though he suffered a wound he did yeoman's work by hitting all 4 times and killing 3 (just had to roll at least one 1, don't worry that dice has been executed) The long fangs passed their LD and so we stayed in combat.  The game ended when the SM player rolled a 2 so did not get to finish the fight. (however just for the record the orks did not lose ;) )

Except in the fight with the sky claws they performed as regular boys would. The big difference was the armor save that allowed me to win a fight against SW marines that I more than likely would have lost with a regular save. The SW player had 13 hits and caused 7 wounds, and I saved all but one. I could see them as viable, but I took them this time just to eat more points as I did not bring everything to the local as I thought a holiday weekend would result in a small turn out, but the opposite happened where we had a record turn out and had to pair up on every table so that everyone could play.

This coming weekend I will take them in a regular army list, and see how they play.
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
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Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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good one gutstikk for getting this rolling.

This is a comment that you will see these threads on all boards soon. feel free to contribute to whatever.

my two penneth is that they make a good solid core on a foot list. i rarely leave home without a squad in my lists.  this is purely due to they get a save from basic weapons. a 50% chance to save is better than none.
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Gutstikk

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I really am hoping to do my part here and squeeze the Ard Boyz into a batrep by the end of the month. I've got a lot on my plate right now with the forum competition and getting that prepped, as well as some IRL obligations. But I'm bored to tears of the old ork army I had and want to get something new going with them, and plan on starting it up with the Ard Boyz at its center, in a nice big squad of shooty and choppy death.

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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my recommendation.

build your force around a core of full ard boy squad back up with 2 x 20 boyz.
add a KFF mek and you have a brutal wedge that really does not need any vehicles.

nothing wakes an opponent up like 70 odd boyz running at them shouting.

I often find that with all the fancy tech and kit available to armies the good old forces et overlooked.


However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: Tarrin's "Take what you want" unit of the month discussion: Ard Boyz [troops]
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 08:46:30 AM »
But I'm bored to tears of the old ork army I had and want to get something new going with them, and plan on starting it up with the Ard Boyz at its center, in a nice big squad of shooty and choppy death.

Well a fine tactic to use with your mega squad of 'ard boys is to take Mad Doc and assign him to the squad giving them that ever useful feel no pain. If you really wanted to spend the points you could also give that squad cybork as well making it a very expensive but hard to kill unit.
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

Offline rosvojaska

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Re: Tarrin's "Take what you want" unit of the month discussion: Ard Boyz [troops]
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2010, 01:27:40 PM »
Well a fine tactic to use with your mega squad of 'ard boys is to take Mad Doc and assign him to the squad giving them that ever useful feel no pain. If you really wanted to spend the points you could also give that squad cybork as well making it a very expensive but hard to kill unit.
That's a pretty expensive unit that can be lead around by a fast moving vehicle very easily.

Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: Tarrin's "Take what you want" unit of the month discussion: Ard Boyz [troops]
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 01:25:33 AM »
Well a fine tactic to use with your mega squad of 'ard boys is to take Mad Doc and assign him to the squad giving them that ever useful feel no pain. If you really wanted to spend the points you could also give that squad cybork as well making it a very expensive but hard to kill unit.
That's a pretty expensive unit that can be lead around by a fast moving vehicle very easily.

Which is why you don't chase a fast vehicle with them - kill something that fast before it gets that close to force the doc's rule.  I used them in a game two weeks ago and they spent 4 rounds of close assault in combat with a 10 man chaos terminator squad lead by BOTH Abbadon and Typhus (1025 point squad!) AND a squad of 14 lesser demons before they finally broke and ran for the table edge.  Took 8 of the terminators and 9 of the demons with them.  Was very happy with the performance.

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Tarrin's "Take what you want" unit of the month discussion: Ard Boyz [troops]
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 01:58:26 PM »
The Mad Dok's great, but not my style. I prefer Zogwort and Wazdakka to the other named ICs in the ork book.

@ Tarrin - I was definitely thinking something like this, along with some Flash Gitz to act as a spearhead, and maybe a couple burna teams and stormboyz - though the burna teams would get looted wagons, the conversion opportunity is fine and looted wagons certainly aren't as top-notch as, say, the battlewagons I could be fielding instead.

Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: Tarrin's "Take what you want" unit of the month discussion: Ard Boyz [troops]
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2010, 09:24:13 AM »
Well again this weekend I took a  truck load of 'ard boys and they were almost worth their points.

They got into a fight with a squad of 4 necron destroyers and killed all 4 with no casualties, then proceeded to contest an objective by not assaulting the Ctan (the one who pushes orks away from CC) and its squad but just standing there trading shots. at the end of the game there were still 7 left of the 12 and the objective stayed contested.

In a seperate game they got out of their truck and took on a squad of 3 ravenors and won will only two casualties, they then charged a carnifex and the nob did the majority of the work killing it off, and then got into a scrum with a large squad of warriors They did not last till the end of the game but kept those warrious busy so that they could not save thier tyrant from the mega nobs.

Both games were a win for the orks, against the necrons 3 objectives to 2 and against the nids by mutual annaihalation 13kp to 12kp.  The 'ard boys might just have to stay as part of the army, but before they earn a permaspot I will have to play a few more games.
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     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

 


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