Topic: Sorcery vs Psychic

[Awfully Dandy]

To my mind, sorcery is not so easily defined as being 'evil' as some sources would have us believe.  I think, therefore, that sorcery can be split into two groups, one which fits the stereotype, linking it too pacts with daemons, summoning rituals, arcane arts, and similar activities; while the other is just a different type of psychic ability.

I could be very wrong but is it possible the way we hear it is from an imperial tone in which the existing prejudices and dogma would come through in the analysis

[The GrimSqueaker]

Depending on how you look at it though, some of the Imperial dogma lends itself quite well to sorcery in a different wrapper. Faith in the Emperor protects, acts of faith(Faith?) themselves for instance, rituals of the machine spirit and so forth. It's the ritual and belief that matter rather than the names and icons.

[Kage2020]

I could be very wrong but is it possible the way we hear it is from an imperial tone in which the existing prejudices and dogma would come through in the analysis

As indicated in other threads, that's pretty much how I view it.  In fact, I get pretty depressed if I view the materials as actual "truth."

Kage

[Benis]

As far as I have gathered the Imperium's view is that even such sorcerous activities that do not directly involve daemons (eg. bargaining for psychic power etc) such as wards and rituals still has daemons at their heart, feeding power to the ritual while the sorcerer in performing his act (perhaps unknowingly) does agree to a pact with the chaotic forces, basically sorcery is always bad. If such rituals are not aimed (unknowingly or not) at the daemons of chaos (eg. Adepus Mechanicus ritualised machine repair etc) than it does not constitute sorcery. Now is this as PMF suggested prejudice or does it contain some truths? What I find speaking for it is that the Emperor himself made this division and, if there is a difference, surely he must have known about it? Then again it might have been a case of convenience from his side.

But Kage, it becomes quite difficult in my view to have any sort of definition of sorcery in the way you describe it, it just seems to be besluddering slang for psychic use with some common attributes that you don't like, which, in my view, is a bit to open ended a definition. You talk about wards and ritualised psychic activity but what do you propose is the source of those activities' power? Is it the sorcerer's belief that reflect back from the warp or what do you suggest? Can you call all sort of faith based mysticism to be sorcery?

[Kage2020]

...basically sorcery is always bad.

From the Imperial standpoint, assuming that it isn't apotropaism?  Yeah, pretty much.  Of course, we also get into the territory of a culture seeing something as bad and it actually being bad (in the game context).

But Kage, it becomes quite difficult in my view to have any sort of definition of sorcery in the way you describe it, it just seems to be besluddering slang for psychic use with some common attributes that you don't like, which, in my view, is a bit to open ended a definition. You talk about wards and ritualised psychic activity but what do you propose is the source of those activities' power? Is it the sorcerer's belief that reflect back from the warp or what do you suggest? Can you call all sort of faith based mysticism to be sorcery?

Not sure how to break up that paragraph into chunks, so I've left it as is since I guess that I'm referring to it all. 

To explain the "structure" comment, that is not entirely off my making, but rather is based from commentary in the official 40k RPG materials, e.g. Dark Heresy, Disciples of the Dark Gods and The Radical's Handbook.  Admittedly, I feel those books present a very bland interpretation of sorcery, but there you have it.  They also take the approach whereby they are just basically "psyker powers" that get called minor and major "arcana" to make them sound more impressive.

With regards to the power component of sorcery, as with psyker powers that is quite clear: ultimately it derives from the warp.  I don't think that anyone would question that.

Erm, but beyond that, and despite the question marks, I'm not quite sure of your question.  The sorcerous ritual shapes the warp, which then has an effect in the matterium.

Is "faith based mysticism" sorcery?  Well, it really depends on what you're talking about.  On my behalf I consider "faith powers" from the game to be functionally similar to psyker powers but... Well, we begin to get into how it is modeled in a game rather than the philosophy of it all.

Sorry about the rambling response, but not entirely sure where you're coming from or what you were heading towards.

Kage

[Benis]

Yes, after re-reading my post I see that it isn't especially clear what I meant...

Basically the way I view psychic powers or use of psychic energies (which of course might be wrong ) is that it involves some sort of opening into the warp to actually gain these powers. Now, how could sorcerous rituals make such an opening if it did not involve the actual denizens of the warp (daemons)? Is it the faith or belief of the sorcerer that makes the opening or does the actual ritual penetrate the barrier? For me the last suggestion seems unlikely unless previous psykers (who have the capacity to make an opening all by themselves) have laid down some sort of ground work that can be accessed with the ritual or if the warp was somehow naturally pre-programmed to react to the ritual, is this what you suggest?

[Kage2020]

Ah, to boil your question down even further, it would seem that you're asking: How does magic work?

That's a bit of a daunting question to answer.   As with you, though, I can only answer from my own perspective.

Basically the way I view psychic powers or use of psychic energies (which of course might be wrong ) is that it involves some sort of opening into the warp to actually gain these powers.

For me there is a defined difference.  Using psyker abilities is akin to... Erm, a kettle.  The psyker opens themselves up to the warp (electricity) and using their innate gifts, channel the warp into a given effect (electricity into heating element to boil the water).  While sorcery uses the same electricity, rather than directing the energy into the heating element to heat the water, does so by induction: activity in the "induction coil" creates similar patterns in the warp, with an effect that is determined by the nature of the ritual.

Okay, perhaps not the best analogy in the world, and I'm sure that it will fall apart without too much effort, but ultimately it goes to illustrate the key difference between channeling of energy to produce an effect, and the use of ritual to induct the movement and patterning of warp energy to similarly produce an effect.

Not a single daemon is involved.  That doesn't mean that they cannot be, just that it isn't inherently a requirement. 

Ultimately, though, it comes down to explaining how magic works.  Ultimately in the game universe it does work and, well, that's that.

Kage

[Benis]

Ah, to boil your question down even further, it would seem that you're asking: How does magic work?

Well, considering that the discussion is about sorcery compared to "regular" psychic powers isn't that kind of the whole point?

Okay, perhaps not the best analogy in the world, and I'm sure that it will fall apart without too much effort, but ultimately it goes to illustrate the key difference between channeling of energy to produce an effect, and the use of ritual to induct the movement and patterning of warp energy to similarly produce an effect.

So what you do suggest is that sorcery isn't merely an ill-defined term thrown around but that the warp is reactive to certain stimuli from the Materium that, when used, can access psychic energy in a similar way to how a psyker can intuitively access the warp or enhance a psyker's capacity to access it? Much in the same way that warp engines can open a rift without actually being psychic but through certain "mechanical" operations?

[Kage2020]

Well, considering that the discussion is about sorcery compared to "regular" psychic powers isn't that kind of the whole point?

Well, there is a difference between how they work in a given system of abstraction (e.g. RPG rules), and discussing the specific metaphysics of how they work.  But fair enough point.

So what you do suggest is that sorcery isn't merely an ill-defined term thrown around but that the warp is reactive to certain stimuli from the Materium that, when used, can access psychic energy in a similar way to how a psyker can intuitively access the warp or enhance a psyker's capacity to access it? Much in the same way that warp engines can open a rift without actually being psychic but through certain "mechanical" operations?

No, I'm pretty much leaving sorcery as a term that is bandied around with remarkable frequency.  But, yes, ultimately it comes down to the idea that sorcerous abilities are psyker-like but they're not psyker powers.  Depending on the "power" of the sorcerer, they might be able to drop some of the ritualistic prerequisites, but it's still not going to be the same as psyker powers.  (Same system, different flavour.)

If I were to return to the Dark Heresy representation of sorcery, there really isn't any flavour to it even though it does use the same system.

With regards to warp drives, there's no reason that they could not work through sorcerous means.  That is, the flow of energy, the construction and "shape," etc., work to achieve the same effect as a sorcerous ritual.  I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is interesting to think about.

Kage

[Benis]

No, I'm pretty much leaving sorcery as a term that is bandied around with remarkable frequency.  But, yes, ultimately it comes down to the idea that sorcerous abilities are psyker-like but they're not psyker powers.  Depending on the "power" of the sorcerer, they might be able to drop some of the ritualistic prerequisites, but it's still not going to be the same as psyker powers.  (Same system, different flavour.)

I think we are on the same page here. Although I would stress the capacity to also enhance a psyker's already available capabilities through the use of sorcery, using both "flavours" at once... It is after all that which is the most famous inuniverse example of sorcery, the Thousand Sons, and from a non-rpg stand point the most common type of sorcery 40k players encounter.

With regards to warp drives, there's no reason that they could not work through sorcerous means.  That is, the flow of energy, the construction and "shape," etc., work to achieve the same effect as a sorcerous ritual.  I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is interesting to think about.

Yes, by the definition stated warp drives could certainly fall within sorcery, of course it is all about definition, isn't it?

[Kage2020]

I think we are on the same page here.

Don't you just love it when that happens?  It means that you're agreeing with me...

...Or I'm agreeing with you.  One of the two.

Although I would stress the capacity to also enhance a psyker's already available capabilities through the use of sorcery, using both "flavours" at once...

True. 

On a personal note, which is to say how I represent things, this happens even though they're represented by two different approaches/systems.  Sorcery allows you to do more, and when a gifted Adept you're as scary as they can come.  Psykers are just more immediate.

But that gets more into the RPing side of thing, so perhaps not entirely appropriate for this forum.

Yes, by the definition stated warp drives could certainly fall within sorcery, of course it is all about definition, isn't it?

Erm, how do you mean?  Define it...

(Just kidding, of course. )

Kage