Topic: Grot powered Tank Company? (1500)

[Colonel Twisting Shadow]

I'm looking for a reason to start scratch building ork stuff (so I can take a break from painting imperials); and stumbled upon IA8, and it's glorious rules for Grot tanks.  Call me inspired.

HQ
35  - Big Mek

Troops
40  - 10 Grots+Herder
40  - 10 Grots+Herder

Elites:
225 - 4x Grot tanks (Kommander /2x KMB; 2x Tank/KMB, 1x Tank/Grotzooka)
145 - 3x Grot tanks (Kommander /2x grotzooka; 2x Tank/Grotzooka)
145 - 3x Grot tanks (Kommander /2x grotzooka; 2x Tank/Grotzooka)

Fast:
155 - Grot Mega Tank/ 2x TL KMB, 2x Big shoota, Grotzooka
155 - Grot Mega Tank/ 2x TL KMB, 2x Big shoota, Grotzooka
120 - Dakkajet/3x Supashoota

Heavy:
165 - Battlewagon/Killkannon, 'Ard Case (Grots/Mek here)
165 - Battlewagon/Killkannon, 'Ard Case (Grots here)
105 - Looted Wagon/Boom Gun

Total 1485

So I've got 15 points to burn, and only 3 actual orks in the army.  However, I have 16 vehicles; with about a 50/50 split of KMBs or Grotzookas.  My plan is to rain ordnance from the HS choices; while the various Grot vehicles advance.  The Megatanks are aimed vehicles first, and troops later (hence the grotzookas); as is the 4 tank Grot unit.  The two 3 tank Grot units are for sowing confusion with the 'zookas.  The Dakka Jet is just there for anti-flyer.

Will it work? Not Likely.  Will it be fun? Probably.  Will it look amazing on the field?  You know it.

For people that are more familiar then myself; how are you arming your Grot Tanks?  I can't seem to get excited about anything other than just the zookas and KMBs.  Rokkits maybe?

[Spectral Arbor]

While I'm not much for the IA books, basic 40k is fine by me, I'd like to point out that units can't score from within vehicles, and you have the absolute least amount of points that a person could possibly spend, put into your troops.

I mean, you can't possibly win. I can't understand why you'd put so much effort into an army you can't possibly win with.

[adamscurr]

I think your list is going to be hilarious...  Great fun...

Now for the details...  A wise opponent is going to kill the grots and prevent you from scoring...  So you'll probably loose a few...  Battle wagons, though though on the front, tend to blow up pretty fast to side armor or CC attacks against the rear armor... 

As for the pros...  You have a lot of firepower...  I have found grotzookas to just rip people a new rear end...  You also have a lot of armor and people will have trouble dealing with it...  KMB's are definitly better then rokkits now since they have a lower AP...  If you have the points, go for them...

I also just noticed you are going to be dropping some serious ordinance on them with the kill kannons...  Good times...  You should be able to dismount troops with the KMB's and blow them to bits!

Adam

[nawari]

looks amazing!

who cares about ojectives these days :p just blow them to biiiitts! haha

if you do decide to make the army, make sure you post up heaps of pics of progress etc.. because every ork here secretly wants that army!

[Colonel Twisting Shadow]

I know; it'd be a nightmare to build; but considering the simplicity of the grot tanks, feasable.  I was just looking at the Grot mega tanks on forgeworld, however, and the scale is a bit hard to determine; I think they're probably LR lengthed(?), but I can't be sure.


I've been hunting around online for WW1/2 tanks to use as bases; and I'm stumped by my lack of knowledge on that particular subject.

I figure 1/48 Light tanks would be good for Grot tank bases; but I can only go as far as the M3 (http://eahobby.com/images/catalog_Images/acad13212.jpg).  if anyone can propose something similar (russian or something) That's be great.  At the very least for inspiration.

I may just order a bunch of tracks of Ramshackle games...they're cheap(ish) compared to 40k bits...

As for the the mega's...I'm lost, probably something a little longer/flatter, but in the 1/35 scale, and I can build up some turrets. 


@ Greatbigtree; Because it's fun?  TBecause I have more guardsmen than I can count -- with ABG and Elysians (half converted) to boot -- and I'd like to build something non imperial?  You've never put together an army for the sole purposes of showcasing models?  No; this is the guy who puts point taxes on his flyers because he doesn't want opponents to hate on him.  The point of this army is laughs; especially if it can make it to table.

[OD from TV]

I'm looking for a reason to start scratch building ork stuff (so I can take a break from painting imperials); and stumbled upon IA8, and it's glorious rules for Grot tanks.  Call me inspired.

You're inspired.  Scratchbuilding and Konverzions (ork styled spelling of conversions), are the bread and butter of an Ork force, and truly the Orks more than any other army in the 40k universe are perfectly suited to Kustomization.  I hope your LGS is more open than the ones in my area, which are very strict on the 70-75% GW material rule.  Even so, sometimes such limitations force one to stretch their imaginations, which is never a bad thing.

I mean, you can't possibly win. I can't understand why you'd put so much effort into an army you can't possibly win with.

Well from time to time I've been known to play an army I know I generally couldn't win with.  Sometimes it can be fun, even if you know the end result is predetermined.  Not everyone plays to win after all.

Nevertheless the regular posters and members of the WotW (the Orky CoC) myself included, have a habit of always lending assistance on crafting lists that have an actual chance at winning games, so to that end Colonel Twisting Shadow I pose this question: Do you just want the army as a themed display army or one that has decent to fair chances on the tabletop?

If you want the first, than by all means build what you have (the 15 point gap and all).
If you want an army that still follows your original premise of a Grot Tank company that also can crump an opponent and strive for a tie, then I have some suggestions.

In either case I ask that you keep an open mind (and a shaker of salt) as you read the rest of this response.

So Grots (infantry) aren't that good... typically.  It all depends on what you are using them for.  For example the classic use was as a screening unit for Ork mobs.  Now in 6th Edition I've already experienced a rather long and drawn out debate on Grots being unable to grant a coversave because they're too low to the ground and are shot over.  Nevertheless I hope they're aren't that many rule lawyers out there for us all to contend with, and at one point before all units being able to grant such a save they had rules specifically written to do just that.

Another great use is as ablative wounds for a Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun (typically abbreviated to SAG Mek).  When placed in heavy cover they can really help keep the SAG going until he either blows them all up, accidentally teleports into Close Combat, or the enemy decides he's taking out that SAG before he can shoot again (there is also the rare instance in which the SAG survives, although that's fairly rare, it's just one good reason not to have a SAG for a Warlord).

The last main usage of a Grot unit is to tarpit enemy Close Combat units.  True they rarely kill anything, but it can happen if your fighting against something with the same or lower Toughness as Plague Marines.  It is also true that if they loose the assault (likely) there is a higher likelyhood than pretty much any other unit in the game that they'd run.  But I will admit that at times you really want to avoid that Monstrous Creature to get the jump on another unit, and if you have 3 Herdas with Grabba Sticks they can really cut down on the amount of damage an MC can do.

So that's the 3 basic plans with Grots, and truthfully I'm not sure what plan you had in mind for these Grots.  They're at min size, in Killkannon Wagons (one of the biggest if not the biggest bulletmagnets the Orks have), and the Wagons are closed top denying a chance for out of the box assaults.  I suppose tooling around, trying to survive and shoot the occasional blast template and then try to land on/near an objective is your best bet, although not one I'd bet the farm on.  I'm not telling you that you can't use them, I'm just saying that as is those Grot units are woefully ineffective in every scenario I can imagine at the moment.

Grot Tanks and the Grot Mega Tanks are really where all your focus is with this list.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but one I feel the need to point out, especially has those 5 units are more than 1/2 the army's point allotment.  I actually konverted a similar army in late 3rd/early 4th of a buggy list using the OoP Armageddon Codex and it's Kult of Speed list (my first real Ork army).  One thing to really keep in mind though, would be making a few changes, for both gaming purposes and modeling purposes.

For starters KMB's are amazing, by their very name "Kustom" you can make each highly individual and easily get away with it.  Although you really shouldn't for a few reasons, least of all being that many lgs' (at least in my area) frown upon such things.  The Rokkit Launcha is almost 2 Grots cheaper in points on a GrotTank, easier to scratchbuild/convert, and have nearly identical stats.  Some could even argue that a Rokkit is more aesthetically pleasing (although I would not be one of them).  The Rokkit also doesn't have a chance to make your minitank blowup an HP, which is also a boon.

With Grot Tank Kommandas, I'd actually switch things up a bit.  Sure keep one of the weapons the same as the rest of the squad, but as for the secondary weapon I think I'd grab a Big Shoota or a Skorcha.  Either are dirt cheap in points, and can give some extra utility overall.  Did I mention the point savings?  Because with a little work overall you could make each unit larger.  An Orky addage when it comes to tabletop play is that if 1 is good, take a dozen, Ork stuff falls apart sometimes just by looking at it to intently, and really I think of Grot Tanks as just a new iteration of Buggies, and I know if I could take units of 6 Buggies I certainly would.

When it comes to the Grot Mega Tanks, I have to ask where you got the rules?  I have an experimental rules sheet for them which I used when I scratchbuilt mine, and according to that your point total is slightly off (although all likelyhood is that what I have is simply out of date).  Even so, I would equip it a little differently.  For example you have a single Grotzooka, a medium ranged small turret weapon.  Now if you build similarly to the standard model the most likely place for that Grotzooka would be the middle turret (as why put it on what is essentially a sponson?).  In that position, the Grotzooka's limited range becomes more limited (unless you are making broadside styled attacks, which even then would obscure one of the Big Shootas), and then that's forgetting about the special (and free of charge) Boom Canisters.

I wouldn't use a Grotzooka for one of the small turrets, I would (and actually did) use a twin Grotzooka for the forward mounted large turret (although in retrospect I wouldn't do that again).  I probably would keep both of the large turrets a twin KMB, which still can blow off an HP, but at a greatly reduced risk due to the twin link.

In your list the best advice to be both in keeping with the theme, as well as being better on the tabletop I'd cut the Looted Wagon.  The points savings can net your Big Mek with a KFF which will really help the two Battlewagons and/or disembarked infantry after their ride is blown up.  Of course that'd still leave a chunk of spare points, with which you could buff the wagons with additional weapons, an extra grot, larger Grot tank units, or 3, and/or the other Great Grot weapon, Big Gunz (specifically the Kannon is their best option, it has both Anti Infantry and Anti Tank fire options, as well as one of the cheapest and strongest units in the Ork codex.)

Lastly I do hope you'll post some pictures of your creations, regardless if you take advice or not.

Peace
~OD

Post Script: Wow ninja-d 3 times.  I really should paint my fingers red so I can type faster.  The official Forgeworld mini of the Grot Mega Tank is about the same size as the official Battlewagon mini.  I have the exact measurements written down somewhere, I'll try to find it

[SKEETERGOD]

A grot armored company is a hoot to play. With all the craziness of the orks plus really silly stuff for more fun. A great army to play. Now I don't use the mega tanks, I do use (used to use) grot tank squadrons. They are indeed fun units to play.

As for winning, well then just look inside the codex: "Orks never lose"  So the concept of "winning" is debatable and not really a consideration. Since I have been out of the tourney scene for two years now I cannot comment on those that go there to "not lose" compared to those that go there to win. That is the reason I kinda stopped going to tourneys, as they were starting to be less about fun than taking the title.

As for converting, go to any plastic model company online or at a local store and buy 1/48 for grot stuff and 1/32 for ork stuff. There is a plethera of WWI tanks and the French model tanks are really close to what the FW team came up with of their resin grot tanks. There are also WWII tank kits that are are also of similar design especially early war Russian models.

A bit of plasticard, some green stuff or quick set JB Weld, a decent amount of bits from any army and some creative licence, you can make grot tanks en-mass that are still individualized.

I arm one squadron with skorchas, as it seems that I run into swarms of nids or infantry, and a trio of skorchas will thin out any nid or IG squad in just a few dice rolls. The other squadron I arm with KMBs as at the time I built them the Grey Knights had just come out and terminator armies were starting to become common. Six KMBs will decimate a paladin squad easily. Sure, after satisfactorily wiping out any of the above named target a flying tyrant or a thunder chicken will take their reprisal on that squad, but it is still fun to make them take more models off the table than you do. I also ran both squads a full six strong with kommander tank. I had planned to make a third squadron but then GW came out with planes, and there are only so many fast attack slots... 

I say to go for it. After all; if you can't have fun doing a "hobby" (addiction?) then you may as well go back to playing solitaire on the computer.

I look forward to seeing some pictures of your work, and maybe even a batrep.

[Colonel Twisting Shadow]

I had an enormous post lined up, and poof; I guess noone will ever see it...


In short though: Skeeter and OD; thanks so much for that.  TONS of good info.

Yeah, this army was never meant to win anything; it's really just for a good time on the table, and something to motivate building of apoc formations.  Initially the battlewagons were supposed to camp, the grots would score on my home objective, if there were any left, just to say that it tried.  In reality, I've only got the one battlewagon (wip), so I'm likely to include one (if any), probably full of grots with a Killkannon.  With a little cover (and luck) i won't even need the KFF.

I'm really toying with putting the second grot unit in a defense line.  15-20 2++ saves and a AA quadgun?  yes please!  the only thing stopping me no lootas to set up in there too.  But that comes out to like 300pts all in.  Boo.  That could be tanks!!!

I'm also considering swapping to the Dread mob list.  Unfortunately, it makes my FA slots even more contested than before (I feel your pain Skeet), and not battlewagons (big trakks yes....).  I can work around this by having 2x Grot tank squads and a mega in the FA, and filling up on Junkas/Looted wagons for the elites/heavies.  I've a bit of a chubby for that shokk attack gun 
Alternatively, it only costs 75pts for a mek/grots to get an allied detatchment for one each of grot tanks and Megatank (or flyer).  Tempting, but maybe save this for 2000 games.

The two places I'm getting stuck are on the anti tank (cuz I gots no Klawz), and arming my grot tanks.

First, I'm thinking a half dozen KMBs at BS3 (or better) should be OK.  Failing that I'll add the lootas.  Failing that, I'll play 'normal' orks.
Second, I'm torn between mixed squads (a couple KMB with shootas for "wounds"), or all out dedicated squads?  And is 6 to many?

Anyway, the overall goal (at the end of the day) is to put together an ork list with (absolute) minimum of 10 Grot tanks, 1 grot mega tank; but I'm aiming for more.  I'd like more than 15 vehicles in 1500pts (if able).  Here's where I'm at last:

40  - Big Mek/grot oiler
40  - 10 Grots
40  - 10 Grots
 
270 - 5x Grot Tanks/Kommanda, KMB/Skorcha, 4x KMB
210 - 5x Grot Tanks/Kommanda, Grotzooka/Skorcha, 2x Grotzooka, 2x Skorcha
210 - 5x Grot Tanks/Kommanda, Grotzooka/Skorcha, 2x Grotzooka, 2x Skorcha

150 - Grot Mega Tank/ 2x TLKMB, Grotzooka, 2x Big Shoota
150 - Grot Mega Tank/ 2x TLKMB, Grotzooka, 2x Big Shoota
120 - Dakka Jet/3x Supa' Shoota

150 - Battlewagon/Killkannon (grots/mek here)
60   - 3x Big Gunz (kannonz)
60   - 3x Big Gunz (kannonz)

Total - 1500

Taking into account what you guys have suggested.  The Grotzookas will go on the back turret for the Mega tanks.  if I'm using it, I might as well broadside (or I've lost KMBs).  It's really just to keep guardians out of my lines. 

I'm much more comfortable with this list.  Still a no-win scenario, but that's fine.  I feel like I've got enough AT (for 1500 anyway) with the Kannons; but if that fails, I could swap out a tank squad for lootas, and fill the other two up to 6 tanks (extra 'zookas).  If I were to play for keeps (so to speak), I'll just swap the Grots out for big ork squads, and play at 1850.

@ OD: Great post, thanks alot!  I'm using IA:Apoc SE for the Megatank rules.  Also, I'm not worried about my LGS.  It's a joke there (not a GW, and the guy hates the brand).  I'm one of those lucky guys with a game room in the basement  (actually, the WHOLE basement); and I ruled proxies as acceptable, so my friends could get into the hobby; I'm sure some paper/card tanks won't be an issue.

@ Skeetergod: Also, thanks a ton.  I know you're a guy with a fair few scratch builds (I kinda idolize you a bit...don't let it go to your 'ead).  This whole idea started with 'but orks can't lose!?!'  Thanks for the scale too.  I figured 1/48 lights, and 1/35 medium/heavys, so I guess I was close!  Any tips on the make of tank?  I can seriously name like 3 pre-modern tanks, and two of them are the T-26 and T-62. one of those might not even be real!!!

@Tree:  Sorry for the outburst.  I'm just sick of people moaning about powergaming, cheesy this/beardy that, auto include units, and rock/paper/scissors lists.  I guess you just aren't ready for themed warhammer.  You should pick up any IA book and read the scenarios; 'regular 40k' is just boring now.  Even the White Dwarf staff are creating new missions for battle reports (heck the Tau Battrep had a 3rd army and a GM!).

@ The orks forum:  thanks for the support thus far!  typically IA/scratch build based lists just drop off the front page on other forums...

Anyway; I just found Patoroch's templates for Grot Tanks on the WWW.  Wish me luck!


edit: too many tanks!

[Spectral Arbor]

@Tree:  Sorry for the outburst.  I'm just sick of people moaning about powergaming, cheesy this/beardy that, auto include units, and rock/paper/scissors lists.  I guess you just aren't ready for themed warhammer.  You should pick up any IA book and read the scenarios; 'regular 40k' is just boring now.  Even the White Dwarf staff are creating new missions for battle reports (heck the Tau Battrep had a 3rd army and a GM!).

Oh, you presume a whole lotta incorrect about me.

My objection was on the basis that your opponent will not have a good time. If you play a list doomed to lose, and you opponent knows it? You've just wasted time he could have spent on a challenging, and enjoyable game, instead of shooting fish in a barrel. The game's  about two players, remember?

[OD from TV]

My objection was on the basis that your opponent will not have a good time. If you play a list doomed to lose, and you opponent knows it? You've just wasted time he could have spent on a challenging, and enjoyable game, instead of shooting fish in a barrel. The game's  about two players, remember?

This is not always true, it really depends on who you are playing against.  A lot of my Skumgrods (Ork speek for Favored Opponents) don't mind (but when I bring an oddball list I do tell them beforehand).  In fact every now and then they actually ask me to bring a "crazy" list to the table.  One even challenged me a few years back to a 100% no vehicle no biker no Stormboyz list (of course that was when I was a true Speed Freak playing exclusively a fast Ork army), which motivated me to konvert up a bunch of Meganobz and in part did push me to the Footslogging lists that have been my main staple for the past few years.  Some opponents like playing against oddball lists, although in no way is that close to even 50% of players.

The second list is certainly more competitive (although do note you have 4 units of Grot Tanks and are over your 1500 point limit, but that's probably a cut/paste error).  At 1500 you are in a good spot for Anti-Tank, unless of course you're local meta is heavy on tanks.

I'm personally not a big fan of mixing weapons in squads like Grot Tanks (the only exception being on the Kommanda which with 2 weapon choices is more palatable).  This is more of a personal choice, but there is also the gaming aspect of having to split tactics.  Even then, I think those units have a fair chance.

With Kannons the best upgrade is Ammo Runts, and they add so much to the unit that I'd even recommend possibly cutting a Kannon for the points to grab 3 Ammo Runts for each unit.  Be sure to deploy them in cover, preferably with a good field of vision of the battlefield.  Kannons tend to be low priority targets, but even then with no extra crew one or two rounds of enemy shooting will likely take them out.

Peace
~OD

[adamscurr]

I'm actually not in the company of thinking that this list is going to loose.  You are bringing a ton of armor, albeit poor armor.  Armies without substantial AT will have some trouble dealing with it.  With all of that armor comes a lot of firepower.  The number of grotzookas you are brining to the field will cause infantry to evaporate... 

Your troops will obviously be a weakness, but hey, if they get blown up, then just blast away and hope you blow them all up! lol

Adam

[Colonel Twisting Shadow]

Well; I'm back from the converting table; and I've had little luck.  I'm going to take another crack at it on my long weekend (starts tomorrow!!!); but in short I got impatient and started with the hot glue...It didn't turn out well.

The second list was certainly the victim of cut/paste error, there should only be the two squads of grot tanks.

OD hit the nail on the head.  I usually get to play 40k around twice a week, so I've got ample oppertunity for running oddball lists with bizzare themes.  Not only do they make for roller coaster games (hopefully); but they wind up inspiring new tactics for more traditional lists.  The golden rule is that you pre brief your opponent.  If he knows your bringing 20 vehicles, half dozen flyers, or other such shennanigans; then it's usually pretty fun.

This list is going to get the majority of play vs Eldar.  I'd  like to get at least one game in before they get that new codex; but it's unlikely, so I'm a little scared excited.

[Locarno]

I mean, you can't possibly win. I can't understand why you'd put so much effort into an army you can't possibly win with.

Actually, in at least half the Eternal War missions you play, you have a respectable chance - Purge The Alien (Kill Points), The Scouring (Scoring Mega-Tanks) and Big Guns Never Tire (Scoring Battlewagons).

More to the point, it's a grot panzer korps. With Battleships. What's not to love?

The Aegis Line seems to fit the theme more than the Dakkajet to me. I love - I mean really love - the dakkajet, model and rules and storyline* and all, so this isn't easy to say, but (a) you can buy the pre-made and nice looking ork barricades, (b) grots on foot like solid objects to hide behind and (c) grot hydra.


* Deff Skwadron is in fact made of the win. Anyone ork player doesn't own this graphic novel, hang your head in shame. Then go buy it.