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Author Topic: 1,500 point list, part the Second. (aka: has 5th edition screwed me completely?)  (Read 2532 times)

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Offline EducatedOgre

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Greetings,

Many moons ago, I posted up a 1,500 point for Eldar, which, after some much appreciated help from people here, was altered into the list you see here today. After having great success with the list in 4th edition, real life (I know, a terrible, terrible thing) forced me to take a break from 40k. Having recently returned, I'm hearing disturbing rumours about how 5th edition, and some new armies, have turned the old way of playing Eldar upside-down.

So, the question is simple. Can this list cut it in 5th edition, and what changes should be made if this isn't the case? Note my funds are rather limited, I can afford a new unit or two (or three), but I certainly can't scrap the entire army again and start from scrath. Nor do I want to, I love the little blighters too much.  :P

HQ
Farseer - 98 points
Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Doom

Autarch - 140 points
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

ELITES
6 Fire Dragons - 108 points
Exarch w. Dragon's Breath Flamer

6 Harlequins w. Harlequin's Kisses - 162 points
Shadowseer

TROOPS
10 Guardians w. Scatter Laser - 138 points
Warlock - Conceal, Singing Spear

10 Guardians w. Scatter Laser - 138 points
Warlock - Conceal, Singing Spear

6 Pathfinders - 144 points

FAST ATTACK
4 Shining Spears - 202 points
Exarch w. Star Lance, Withdraw, Skilled Riders

HEAVY SUPPORT
Falcon - 185 points
Shruiken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone, Vectored Engines

Falcon - 185 points
Shruiken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone, Vectored Engines

TOTAL: 1,500 points (48 models)

Some immediate problems I can see are:

a) 3 scoring units, is this enough in 1,500 points? (especially since the Pathfinders are sitting ducks out of cover, and Guardians are nowhere near as speedy (relatively) as they used to be compared to other armies)

b) With the nerf to rending, are Harlequins still a credible close combat threat? Equally importantly, are the doomsayers who write off Falcons as flying deathtraps right?

c) How will true LOS affect the army placement and unit co-ordination, especially the Autarch + Jetbikes?

d) How does the Reserve rules affect this army? Are there some units (Falcons/Spears) that should always start in reserve? How does the Autarch affect this?

Any and all help is, as always, appreciated. Hopefully this thread could be used as a model for other people who are trying to adopt their armies to the new edition without renovating them wholesale.

Offline enlg

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well, firstly, your guardians do not need conceal (saves 15 pts each) because now it is so much easier to gain a cover save which is now 4+ so is much better than conceal. depending on your style of play, either embolden or destructor would work, but i lean for embolden, as you can use it to have your farseer reroll phychic tests if attached to that guardian squad (this is covered in the new eldar FAQ). i dont think pathfinders are worth the points, so rangers would be good, and it would save another 30pts. i suggest that in general, take crack shot on the dragon's exarch, as it is only 5pts, and it sooooooo valuable. i think that adding a squad of 6 jetbikes would greatly increase the power of your army as it could pair up with the autarch and spears. lastly, where are you placing the farseer? it seems to get outmanouvered in most cases, and out of place since it is static, and has doom (meant to be used while moving up)

Offline Irisado

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Enlargingcloud makes some good points, but I have some of my own I would like to add.

I don't feel that you need to make a great deal of changes to this list, but there are one or two areas which would benefit from alterations.

Enlargingcloud dealt with the Conceal issue on the Warlocks, so I'll just say that I agree with that and move on.

My concern centres on your infantry/mechanised balance, which I feel is too strongly skewed in favour of the mechanised wing.  In my experience, you need a counter assault/defensive assault unit on foot to protect Guardians, or else a clever opponent will just dodge your mechanised wing, smash through your Guardians and spoil your entire strategy.

I would, therefore, drop the Harlequins and one of the Falcons (if you were using the Harlequin/Falcon combination in fourth edition, that was not in line with Eldar background, so I wouldn't have recommended it then, and I still don't recommend it now), and take a unit of Striking Scorpions on foot and deploy them with the Guardians.

If you are going to use the Fire Dragons in a multi-purpose role, then I would be tempted to add a couple of models if you can, otherwise it may just be better to run them purely as an anti-tank/elite MEQ unit, and drop the Exarch.

Eldar transports don't need Vectored Engines any more in my opinion, since the damage to passengers if their skimmer is shot down while moving flat out is very insignificant most of the time.

Given that you have no significant firebase, I'm not convinced that Pathfinders are really going to help you that much.  I feel that the points would be better spent on a scoring unit for the mechanised wing (see below), so you could drop this unit.

Using the saved points, I would be very tempted to add a unit of Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent to the mechanised wing, since I have found that it's important to take a scoring unit in a mechanised wing, as you can end up destroying the opposing flank, but then having no squad available to capture an objective on that flank, which can cost you victory.

To answer your three questions:

a.  Three scoring units can be sufficient in a 1500 point game in my view, but one of them needs to be in the mechanised wing (see above comments).

b.  Harlequins can still work in close combat, but they are at their best against high toughness targets, so really are not needed against regular armies, especially if background plays a part in your thinking too.  Their biggest problem comes from reprisals, as not being able to consolidate into combat any more causes them severe survivability issues.

c.  I'm not quite sure I really know what you are trying to say here, but assuming you mean are Jetbikes harder to hide behind cover than before, the answer is, generally, yes.

d.  The Autarch works in the same way as before.  The way the missions work, however, has changed somewhat.  I don't have my rulebook with me here, and quoting from it isn't allowed anyway, so I can't give you much information on how this works.

Tactically, however, I wouldn't start this army in reserve, since you have a mixed force, and mechanised forces are those which are better suited to the reserves strategy.

I'm sorry for being a bit vague here, but the problem of living in two places, is that I don't always have the relevant books to hand, and because I don't ever use an Autarch, I don't tend to think about the reserves rule very much  :)

There are some other changes I could suggest to your list, but in light of your remarks about lack of cash to spend, I have decided to keep suggestion for unit alterations to a minimum, especially since the list is fairly solid in most areas in my view.

I hope that helps.
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Offline enlg

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i completely agree with Irisado, and in addition i think you should add a fire prism or two to this list (u dont need to buy two, just buy a head of one and put in on the 2nd falcon). this would split the enemy's firepower as they would need to worry about 2 fire prisms from 60' away and with the oncoming attack of the MEQ force. it would greatly complicate things for the opponent, and also make them make lots of mistakes imo since hardly any units can even fire 60' or let alone be able to move fast enough to react. my primary army (nurgle, 16 games...undefeated in 4th edition.....) got destroyed by a MEQ eldar army with two prisms, i could hardly do anything, and my list was quite competitive (i destroyed all but the prisms and his eldrad, and, it was very hard to kill an avatar). i cannot stress enough the amount of damage two fire prisms can deal

Offline moc065

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HQ
Farseer - 98 points
Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Doom

Autarch - 140 points
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

ELITES
6 Fire Dragons - 108 points
Exarch w. Dragon's Breath Flamer

6 Harlequins w. Harlequin's Kisses - 162 points
Shadowseer

TROOPS
10 Guardians w. Scatter Laser - 138 points
Warlock - Conceal, Singing Spear

10 Guardians w. Scatter Laser - 138 points
Warlock - Conceal, Singing Spear

6 Pathfinders - 144 points

FAST ATTACK
4 Shining Spears - 202 points
Exarch w. Star Lance, Withdraw, Skilled Riders

HEAVY SUPPORT
Falcon - 185 points
Shruiken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone, Vectored Engines

Falcon - 185 points
Shruiken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone, Vectored Engines

TOTAL: 1,500 points (48 models)

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential At first glance it apears a bit low in some regards; but after a more carefull view I can actually see a really good mix of low, mid, long ranged AT... and its spread out through almost every unit.. So well done, and I score it as Good since it could be improved 0.8..
2.. Anti-MEQ potential With half of the units having really good options to take out MEQ with ranged firepower and/or CC... I do feel that this area is also well developed.. It can still be improved though, so I rated it as Good... 0.8..
3.. Anti-Horde potential Very limited use of Flamers and Mass firepower and/or Multi-assault potential.. so this area is weak and should see some work... Thus I only score it as Slightly Below Average... 0.5...
4.. Ranged Firepower potential Here there is a mix of ranged Firepower with the Falcon's and Guardians; but, it could easily be imporved. Thus I rate it as Average ... 0.6..
5.. Assault potential Well Harlies and Spears are good assault teams, and they work well with some of the other things you have... but they will not last in Assault so coordinating the attacks precisely wil be paramount.. thus I only rate this area as Average .. 0.6..
6.. Scoring Units / point level Basic Math here and 3 at this points level is actually not bad.. they do need some added resilience; but other than that their OK.. Thus I rated it as Average .. 0.6..
7.. Durability or Resilience Falcons still rock, but unfortunately the rest of the army mihgt have issues due to the config, etc.. thus I only rate it as Average. .. 0.6...
8.. Flexability Well let me see, it looks like a classic Hammer and Ancil of sorts; but has reserve options as well as Pincer options, etc.. so its actually more flexible than I first thought... Thus I score it as Above Average. .. 0.7..
9.. Mission Capabiliy Average in KP's (10), can certainly grab or contest objective.. has some reserve options etc... Thus overall I actually think its Good.. ..0.8...
10. Dynamics and/or Theme Its classed as Hybrid by the Op, but in fact I see it more as a Hammer and Soft Anvil... Its Anvil part is the weak part as configured (and what I would go for first).. but it has some interesting speed, shooting, assault combo's in there... I am not sure if I would call it a Themed list, but I do see some nice synergy going on... Thus I rate it as Good ... 0.8...

Rating = 6.8/10 (Others may score it differently; but I see this a good Fun list, that could do well if used well. I also see it as having a huge potential to fail hard if used poorly... and thus its risky parts do give me hesitation to use it as configured.)

  • Shining Spears need another dude... Full Squad is better by far; and I see the Starlance as an option for only when you have the points left over... Which you probably won't..
  • Falcon config could do better for shooting potential and save points (10 so far)... 

(180) Falcon, Pulse, EML, Cats... HF, Stones.
  • Look as Embolden for Guardians and use Cover to protect them while re-roll any LD tests (helps attached Farseer and saves points too).. save another (10pts)..
  • Rending still works well enough, especially if you use it with Doom.
  • Autarch shoudl work with the Spears if he can.. but if he might cause overkill, then seperate them in movement and have him hit something on his own so that the unit(s) do not end up stranded in the open... Harlies can be a little more forgiving; but not much... And use the shooting to soften enemy units accordingly.
  • With your Autarch you can go into reserves with relative safety.. IG might counter this; but evenstill, the soft parts of your army could certainly go into reserves as a preventive device for many missions/scenerios...


I do hope that helps, and thanks for asking for the rating...

CaHG
« Last Edit: May 6, 2009, 09:15:44 AM by moc065 »
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Offline EducatedOgre

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Thank you kindly for your suggestions. So, going by moc065's criteria, the main areas for improving in this list are...

1. Anti-Horde Potential
2. Ranged Firepower Potential
3. Assault Potential
4. Scoring Units
5. Durability or Resilience

And Irisado has mentioned added durability to the firebase of my army, and a scoring unit to the mechanised wing. I'm not entirely sure how this can be done in 1,500 points with my current list, but as I'm planning on expanding it to 2,000 points anyway I have some ideas.

HQ (285) (14.25%)

Farseer: Spirit Stone, Runes of Warding, Doom, Fortune

            145 points

Autarch: Laser Lance, Eldar Jetbike, Mandiblasters, Fusion Gun

            140 points

ELITES (286) (14.3%)

6 Fire Dragons: Exarch with Dragon’s Breath Flamer

            108 points

6 Harlequins: Harlequin’s Kisses, Shadowseer, Troupe Master with Power Weapon 

            178 points

TROOPS (692) (34.6%)

10 Guardians: Shruiken Catapults, Scatter Laser Platform
Warlock: Singing Spear, Embolden

            128 points

10 Guardians: Shruiken Catapults, Scatter Laser Platform
Warlock: Singing Spear, Embolden

            128 points


6 Pathfinders
         
                                144 points   

10 Dire Avengers: Exarch with Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend

Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers, Twin-Linked Shruiken Catapults, Spirit Stone

            292 points

FAST ATTACK (222) (11.1%)

5 Shining Spears: Exarch with Withdraw and Skilled Riders

            222 points

HEAVY SUPPORT (515) (25.75%)

Falcon Grav-Tank: Pulse Laser, Eldar Missile Launcher, Twin-Linked Shruiken Catapults, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone

            180 points

Falcon Grav-Tank: Pulse Laser, Eldar Missile Launcher, Twin-Linked Shruiken Catapults, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone

            180 points

Wraithlord: Eldar Missile Launcher, Bright Lance, 2 Flamers

            155 points

TOTAL: 2,000 points

CHANGES

- Dropped the Singing Spear on the Farseer (purely a points-saving measure, I would prefer to keep it) and add Spirit Stones and Fortune. I like having a tooled-up Farseer at high points levels, and Fortune helps with the durability.

- Added a Troupe Master to the Harlequins. His Power Weapon will improve the ability of the Harlequins to handle a multi-turn assault. (okay, ideally they shouldn't be in that situation in the first place, but best laid plans and all that...)

- Replaced Conceal with Embolden as recommended.

- Added a unit of Dire Avengers. This improves the assault potential, the anti-horde potential, and scoring ability of the army. The Wave Serprent also provides extra firepower and durability, as well as ensuring that a scoring unit is in the mechanised wing of the army.

- Dropped Star Lance from Spears and added another Jetbike to the unit as recommended. (so it's now at maximum size)

- Modified Falcon loadout as recommended.

- Added a Wraithlord. I've never tried one before, but they would add firepower and durability to my firebase, as well as close combat punch. It also provides another "ZOMG" target for opponents to shoot at.

So, going back to moc's list...

1. Anti-Horde Potential - Dire Avengers, Eldar Missile Launchers
2. Ranged Firepower Potential - Wave Serpent, Wraithlord
3. Assault Potential - Dire Avengers (kind of...), Harlequins (kind of...), Wraithlord
4. Scoring Units - Dire Avengers
5. Durability or Resilience - Wave Serpent, Wraithlord, Farseer (Fortune)

Any further suggestions are, of course, greatly appreciated.

Offline Irisado

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I feel the expanded list has a lot of promise, but it's still too skewed towards the mechanised wing in my opinion.

As I indicated in my earlier post, you need an assault unit on foot, otherwise those Guardians will just be swept away by an opposing army dodging your mechanised wing and steamrollering your Guardians in close combat.

I would, therefore, dispense with the Harlequins and the Falcon for all the reasons I gave in my previous post, and invest in Striking Scorpions on foot instead.  You could also put the Dire Avengers led by the Exarch with a Power Weapon, Shimmershield and Defend on foot if you really want to bolster your infantry battle line, since this unit combines well with Striking Scorpions in my view.

Dire Avengers mounted in a Wave Serpent are much better configured to be a dedicated shooting unit in my view, so I would give their Exarch Dual Avenger Catapults and Bladestorm.  This squad is a welcome addition to the mechanised wing though in my opinion.

Anti-tank Wraithlords only work when fielded in pairs in my experience, since one does not generate sufficient penetrating hits to unduly worry the opposing commander, so if you can't take two of these, then I would say that one on its own isn't worth it, unless you change its weapons and use it in an anti-infantry role.  Given that you have two Scatter Lasers in the Guardian squads though, I see little value in going down that route.

Everything else looks solid.

I hope that helps.



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Offline moc065

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1500 pt idea...

Head Quarters
Farseer: Spirit Stone, Runes of Warding, Doom, Fortune             145 points

Autarch: Laser Lance, Eldar Jetbike, Mandiblasters, Fusion Gun             140 points

ELITES
5 Fire Dragons: Exarch with Dragon’s Breath Flamer            92 points

8 Striking Scorpions, Exarch with Claw and Stealth            160 points

TROOPS
10 Guardians: Shruiken Catapults, SHuri-cannon Platform
Warlock: Singing Spear, Embolden             123 points

6 Pathfinders                                144 points   

10 Dire Avengers: Exarch with Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers, Spirit Stone             292 points

Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears: Exarch with Withdraw and Skilled Riders             222 points

HEAVY SUPPORT
Falcon Grav-Tank: Eldar Missile Launcher, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone             180 points


TOTAL:  1498 points

I hope that helps, and I tried to use what you had already posted; but in this case I do see the Scorpions being a better choice than Harlies although Harlies can work in a different mannerism if you really like them...

CaHG

« Last Edit: May 6, 2009, 09:02:44 PM by moc065 »
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Offline EducatedOgre

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moc, terribly sorry, but you appear to have the points cost for the Fire Dragons mixed up. I can't see any combination in the Codex that gives a 98 point unit.

That said, here is a slight modification of your idea for the consideration of the board.

HQ
Farseer - 145 points
Runes of Warding, Spirit Stone, Doom, Fortune

Autarch - 140 points
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

ELITES
6 Fire Dragons - 113 points
Exarch w. Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

8 Striking Scorpions - 160 points
Exarch w. Scorpion's Claw, Stalk

TROOPS
10 Guardians w. Scatter Laser - 128 points
Warlock - Embolden, Singing Spear

5 Pathfinders - 120 points

10 Dire Avengers - 292 points
Exarch with Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend

Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers, Twin-Linked Shruiken Catapults, Spirit Stone

FAST ATTACK
5 Shining Spears - 222 points
Exarch w. Withdraw, Skilled Riders

HEAVY SUPPORT
Falcon - 180 points
Eldar Missile Launcher, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone

TOTAL: 1,500 points (49 models)

Ratings/advice greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 6, 2009, 08:46:33 PM by EducatedOgre »

Offline moc065

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Its 92 pts, and its 5 FD, one of which is the Exarch and his flamer is free.

Your version works too though... so go with what youlike.

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Offline Irisado

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I feel the latest version of list has a lot of promise, but I rather liked the dual Guardian units, since in my experience they work best when fielded in pairs.  I would, therefore, drop the Pathfinders (you don't have much of a fire base to attach them to), and reinstate the second Guardian squad.

The Fire Dragon squad is too small to be used in a multi-purpose role in my opinion, so I would drop the Exarch and use this unit as purely an anti-tank/elite MEQ squad.

I still feel that the Dire Avenger Exarch would be better configured to a shooting role (see my previous posts).

Everything else looks good, and the Striking Scorpions are a particularly welcome addition in my view.

I hope that helps.
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Offline moc065

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You have a point with the Guardian squads working better in tandum.. and here is my sugestion in that end.

Replace the Pathfinders (120) with this.
(118) 10 Guardians w. Shuri-cannon, +Warlock - Embolden, Singing Spear.

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Offline Irisado

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The only issue I have with Guardian squads with Shuriken Cannons is that you have to advance within the range of rapid fire weapons to be able to fire it, and I don't find that this is a good idea, particularly early in the game before opposing squads have been reduced in number.

That said, this is more of a problem against certain armies than others, but if you expect to face Marines with all their Boltguns, it tends not to be a good idea in my view.
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