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Author Topic: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis  (Read 3038 times)

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Offline Calseris

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1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« on: March 19, 2008, 10:37:33 PM »
Overview:
My first Eldar list since 3rd ed. Designed as an all comers list and making a deliberate decision to stay away from Harlies and Tanks, possibly a list for some “softer” tournaments this year. Also something to make me think about unit placement and movement. To provide a bit of a challenge to me to play


Autarch: 130
   Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun

Farseer: 160
   Jetbike, Fortune, Doom, Spirit Stones

3 Warlocks: 169
   Jetbikes, Singing Spears, Embolden (1), Destructor (2)

6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152
   2x Shuriken Cannon

6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152
   2x Shuriken Cannon

3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock: 135
   1x Shuriken Cannon
   Warlock: Embolden, Singing Spear, Spirit Seer

Vyper: 70
   Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser

Vyper: 70
   Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser

3 Shining Spears + Exarch: 197
   Exarch: Withdraw, Star Lance

Wraith Lord: 135
   Scatter Laser, Eldar Missile Launcher

Wraith Lord: 135
   Scatter Laser, Eldar Missile Launcher

Basic battle plan
The Vypers and Guardian Jetbikes concentrate fire to pick units apart, aided by doom if it's not being used elsewhere. The Warlocks and Shining Spears hunt for targets of opportunity. The Wraith Lords draw fire and plod slowly forwards. The spirit seer should be keeping in range of the two Wls to keep them active. The Farseer and Autarch support as required.

The WLs should be resilient enough to withstand being the primary target after everything else has jumped out of sight. Hopefully use of terrain will cut down on the enemy units able to return significant fire on them.

Weak in the assault phase but the mobility should help me direct assaults more to my liking.

Thoughts? Obvious flaws?

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2008, 11:58:00 PM »
Autarch + shining spears, I've done it as well, their target choice is really important.

Seer and warlocks are cool too.  But IMO, I believe you have too many warlock powers there... you don't have any 'body bags' before losing something important...

6 man GJB, I love them.

3 GJB... I don't think this unit is 'good' as a WL babysitter, (with the whole spear thing).

Vypers are coolz, with lots of dakka... I personally shy away from them, due to their fragility, even at 36" weapon range.


I don't think WL's fit the Saim-Hann image... they do provide some anti-tank shooting, but not the durable kind... cause when all you have to expose to the enemy are 2 WL's... all their AT fire is up against them...and at that point, they are not as tough as they look on paper.

CAUTION: Usually there's a terrain issue for hiding everything first turn and turns after for JSJ.

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Offline Roflmancer

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 02:50:07 AM »
It looks good to me for the most part, but I'd have to agree with Sanctjud about the Wraithlords. They just don't fit the craftworld too well. Besides being huge targets, another downside you're forgetting to address with your WL's is Wraithsight. If you don't have a psyker within 6" (or 12" for a spiritseer), you have a one in six chance of them just sitting there and doing nothing for a turn.
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Offline Calseris

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2008, 09:03:13 PM »
The WLs were there as something resilient to take the heat whilst everything else is, hopefully, out of sight. I saw them as fluffy in that all the craftwolds will have them. Not the best choice certainly I Will agree

Replacing them with Fire Prisms with spirit stones frees up 20 points and also resolves the wraithsight issue.

So the question is, what to do with those 20 points and the GJB unit with the warlock that was going to baby sit them?
Ditching the unit gives up a total of 155 points, enough for another 6 man GJB unit, however finding places on a board to hide 3 big jetbike units could be interesting to say the least  ;)

One thought is to add another Shining spear, bringing the squad up to 5, and "something else" for the remaining 120 points.

The warlocks Squad has a bit of a multi purpose build, the 2 destructor powers are very anti infantry, at least up to MEQs and even then they should be doing some damage as the should be causing enough wounds to push a few failed saves, the spears are obviously anti tank. Admittedly I do have some reservations about how the unit will preform (and having so many points sunk into HQ)

Hmm...

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2008, 10:46:42 PM »
Nice list, but Doom does not compliment Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers well.  If you were to use the Shuriken Catapults on the Bikes as well, yes, but that's a big risk to the Bikes.  Doom works well with lower strength weapons or on higher toughness targets- but even against a Carnifex, dozens and dozens of Catapult + Doom shots will fare better than a small number of Cannon + Doom shots.  I'd drop Doom and the Spirit Stones to save points, buy another Shining Spear with the points saved (it's a small unit, I think it should always be maxed out, otherwise their tiny number of attacks will really hurt them).
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Offline Calseris

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 10:39:33 PM »
Updating the list to take peoples comments into account...

Autarch: 140
   Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

Farseer: 118
   Jetbike, Fortune, Singing Spear

3 Warlocks: 169
   Jetbikes, Singing Spears, Embolden (1), Destructor (2)

6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152
   2x Shuriken Cannon

6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152
   2x Shuriken Cannon

3 Guardian Jetbikes: 76
   1x Shuriken Cannon

3 Guardian Jetbikes: 76
   1x Shuriken Cannon

Vyper: 70
   Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser

Vyper: 70
   Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser

4 Shining Spears + Exarch: 227
   Exarch: Withdraw, Star Lance

Fire Prism: 125
   Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 125
   Spirit Stones

Went for the smaller units of Jetbikes as i think they'll be easier to handle and hide than another big one
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 10:42:33 PM by Calseris »

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 08:15:43 AM »
This review is for the original list, without taking the updates into account, for the sake of responding to the request for a critique. The review uses my 5/5 system, details of which can be found here:

Gutstikk's 5/5 Rating for Army List Review

Background: .5
The list is built for background, and for use in tournament play though not necessarily for brutal tourney play. Because of this, the orientation is more towards theme first, impact second; also, any added challenges to tactical thinking created by this list are welcomed. Could use a bit more info in the theme area, mostly due to the obvious elephant in the room of 2 wraithlords on foot in an all-mounted list - some may not see that as sticking to the theme; without the right explanation it could be a source of irritation. Could also do with some specifics about why individual units have been selected over others. Still, it's a good enough introduction to give us an idea about what you're going for with it.

Composition: .5
The army features a good range of thematic units from across the FOC with the possible exception of the heavy support section which needs some explanation. The unit roles are pretty versatile, though you are a bit weak in the anti-MEQ/Heavy Infantry department - a marine horde or Necron army might give you some obvious problems. You've got enough stuff that can pop tanks open with focused fire and the hard stuff can be destroyed at close range if necessary. A dedicated horde may give you trouble if it contacts your forces due to weight of numbers, so care will be needed to address this situation should it arise. Also, you have an obvious repeated vulnerability with all of your units generally sharing the same profile and essentially being duplicates - The right enemy unit could cause lots of problems to your army without you being able to respond to the threat it presents.

Utility: .5
Most of the units have well-thought out upgrades that are not taken in excess, but I would question some of the following without any justification being present:

The Farseer probably does not need Doom; most of the firepower in your list will be doing its damage on a 2+ against most targets until you close, and even then, it's not a big deal unless you plan to do that kind of fighting a lot. If the traditional JSJ maneuver is what you intend, you could save a lot of points from the doom/stones, or possibly put them towards runes of warding, which would protect your force from enemy psykers.

The Spirit Seer jetbike squad is a little bit curios to say the least. I am of the opinion that you will have trouble balancing their movement and fighting capabilities with their spirit seer ability, and it could either severly limit how you use the wraithguard or how you use these jetbikes. Either way, it is an inefficient use of those points - it may be worth the 1/6 dysfunctional wraithguard in order to get an extra 6 turns of in-game effect out of the jetbike squad.

I've never been a fan of the Scatter/Shuricannon vypers. I feel that it is wasted points on one gun or the other. At close range the twin-linked catapults are almost as good as the cannon vs infantry, at a distance the Scatter Laser is all that's firing and it's not much worse than 2 shuriken cannons up close. Since you are looking to deny your opponent targets you will not want these squads to be close to the enemy; they will be one of the few things your opponent can fire back on and they'll be pretty sure to down them if they do. I'd lose the cannons, save the points. Between this and the farseer you could add some extra jetbikes to the list, or add another warlock, or another vyper... lots of good possibilities.

Flexibility: 1
Here is where this list does it's best, with most units being able to deal with anything except for the possible AV14 vehicle. While you will have to be careful in how you engage your enemy, if you do it properly you should be able to cut down almost anything in time. All of your squads will need to have a care about avoiding assaults, but that is part of the design considerations you have for this list, so it's not a huge deal. Remember that while the Autarch will enjoy riding with the spears, it is not a necessity and may often prove useful to put him with the warlocks or a jetbike squad instead. I think while Doom could help you out in assault it won't be enough to push your units through successfully, so you may just want to drop it and get more stuff instead. You are spoiled for options in the shooting and movement phase.

Ingenuity: .5
Some thought is given to how the units will be used, but there's not a whole lot of input on specific tactics or strategies, nor is there much consideration of your army's weakpoints. You may need to consider your vulnerabilities further, as well as how you will emphasize your strengths. This is not an army that anybody could put on the board and coast to victory with, so it merits deeper analysis.

Total Score:3, for a good army list. Some thought has been given to all areas with an emphasis in the area of flexibility, and the theme is generally adhered to quite nicely.

Offline Calseris

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 09:32:15 PM »
Thanks Gutstikk

The reasoning behind the Wraith Lords:
They looked more survivable than a non holo Falcon or Fire Prism, they aren't too against the fluff imho, Saim Hann is going to have Wraith units like everyone else and until Wraith Guard on bikes or flying Wraith Lords turn up (yeah right  :D) They have to footslog. It only takes one shot to down a vehicle but 3 to take down a WL

I think I'll have a play around and a think, possibly try and get some more anti meq and / or CC in the list

Thanks for the responses and feedback guys
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 09:34:11 PM by Calseris »

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 11:05:11 PM »
I'm not trying to suggest that Saim Hann wouldn't have wraithlords, just that fielding them wouldn't be in accordance with a generic Saim-Hann army. Therefore, it might be nice to know why these particular wraithlords are being fielded with this particular detachment. It's not necessary to take this extra step, but it is nice if you do  ;).

Offline moc065

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 06:24:36 PM »
HQ
Autarch: 140 --  Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters
Farseer: 118 --  Jetbike, Fortune, Singing Spear
     3 Warlocks: 169 --   Jetbikes, Singing Spears, Embolden (1), Destructor (2)

Troops
6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152 --   2x Shuriken Cannon
6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152 --   2x Shuriken Cannon
3 Guardian Jetbikes: 76  --    1x Shuriken Cannon
3 Guardian Jetbikes: 76 --    1x Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attack
Vyper: 70 --    Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser
Vyper: 70 --    Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser
4 Shining Spears + Exarch: 227 --    Exarch: Withdraw, Star Lance

Heavy Support
Fire Prism: 125 --   Spirit Stones
Fire Prism: 125 --   Spirit Stones

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential: Actually every unit has side/rear potential for sure; but there is very little in the way of Dedicated Anti-tank; so overall it just socres, Average (.6)
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: Now although there is not loads of AP=3 weaponry, there is a good amount of high strength and ranged shooting to offset this; so once again its about, Average (.6)
3.. Anti-Horde potential: Very fast so it won't get swamped very easily and its has plenty of shooting as well; but it has little in the way of really good "holding" units, even though the number of Jetbikes may help; thus it scores, Good (.8 )
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: Every unit has ranged firepower, and they are all mobile to boot, so this may possibly be its strongest point and this may actually offset for other things if its used well; thus it scores, Excellent (1)
5.. Assault potential: Autarch & Spears are about it, yes the JB's can be decent; but they need to timed so well and they need so much supports that I don't think its consistently viable, maybe a couple well equiped Jetbike Warlocks would fix that though; thus it doesn't score well being, Below Average (.4)
6.. Scoring Units / point level: Although there is excessive Min/Max going on, 9 socring units at 1500 pts is really; Very Good (.9)
7.. Durability or Resilience: most durable tactic is VP denial, and considering the whole thing is pretty well MEQ it has some potential, where it lacks is that some of hte untis could have been rock solid with simple re-configurations such as Holo-fields on the Fire-prisms; thus it only scores, Above Average (.7 )
8.. Flexability: It can be used in several manners and react to different enemies; but it has a lot of repetition and therefore anything that is not so good against an enemy is actually there more than once, a few simply Jetbike unit re-configs could have worked in some serious flexibility without altering the list out of theme, synergy, or style; thus it only scores, Average (.6)
9.. Mission Capabiliy: It should actually do well in almost any mission so here I don't think it lacks much at all that is not already accounted for in other areas; thus it scores, Above Average (.7 )
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: The theme, dynamics and synergy are all very obvious; but in this case they are a little too obviouse which takes away some of the surprise factor that could have been there, thus it only scores, Above Average (.7)

Rating 7/10 Others may score it differently, and alhtough I think it has the potential to do well, it would take a fair amount of work, it would not stand up to seriously competitive play, and in the long run I feel it would become stale very quickly due to its lack of simple diversity.

Now how would I alter it, something like this:
HQ
Autarch: 140 --  Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters
Farseer: 133 --  Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Fortune, Singing Spear
     4 Warlocks: 226 --   Jetbikes, Singing Spears (2), Enhance (1), Embolden (1), Destructor (2)

Troops
6 Guardian Jetbikes: 152 --   2x Shuriken Cannon
5 Guardian Jetbikes: 156 --   1x Shuriken Cannon, and including a JB Warlock with Destructor and Spear.
3 Guardian Jetbikes: 76  --    1x Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attack
Vyper: 70 --    Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser
4 Shining Spears + Exarch: 222 --    Exarch: Skilled Rider and Withdraw

Heavy Support
Fire Prism: 160 --   Holo-field and Spirit Stones
Fire Prism: 160 --   Holo-field and Spirit Stones

Totals 1495pts, 7 scoring units. Has more Assault potential, more resilience, more diversity, and the Mini-JB-Council is a lot more solid to offer almost anything at a moments notice. Still close to the original theme; but the potential synergy is greater in the long run, and its variety should prove to make it easier to play and more fun in the long run.

CaHG
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 06:37:53 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 11:44:58 PM »
Whoops, I totally critiqued the first list rather than the updated one. Hope this doesn't cause too many problems...? Oh well, now you've got some input on both of them!

Offline Calseris

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2008, 05:49:30 AM »
@ Gutstikk.

It's cool, your input on the original list was usefull, especially in regads to the units that gt switched out for the second list (it's not like I've started painting anything other than jetbikes yet  :) )

@moc

Thanks for the feedback, very useful certainly given me a lot to think about. Time to actually do some gaming with the list I think and see how things go.

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Re: 1500 Saim Hann for crtique and analysis
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2008, 11:33:21 AM »
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