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Offline midos

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zimbabwe
« on: August 22, 2002, 02:06:42 PM »
since hooking up with col gadaffi in 2000, whose dreams of ruling africa are very public, president mugabe of zimbabwe has supported farmland siezures by "war veterans" (really just teenage thugs who are to young to even remember the rhodesia revolution). they intimidated, beat up, even murdered those who refused to leave their land. generally, the western press has told us that the only farms being siezed are those belonging to "colonial" whites (ie white people of colonial descent). this is untrue, as the vast, vast majority of white-owned farms were bought after the revoloution (from mugabe in fact), and also because black-owned farms are also being siezed (of course it would be just as bad if they werent, but im just filling you in).

in the past few months, as land "redistribution" (not really redistribution, as the land remains in the hands of the "war veterans" who stole it, who are woefully untrained in farming, and who pretty much refuse to farm at all has intensified, and the black farmhands who worked on the farms were left without jobs, a famine has begun. many see this as mugabe's "mistake", but i disagree.

all communism, in the cases where power is the aim of the supporters, has required a catastrophe to achieve fruition. the bolsheviks had WW1, the chinese had the japanese occupation and their "raping" of many chinese cities, the koreans had the korean war, and eastern europe had the nazis, followed by soviet occupation. i believe that mugabe is attempting to replicate stalin's starvation and pacification of the ukraine, only on a country-wide scale.

libya uses zimbabwe, to some extent, as its bridge to the western oil markets. as libya now regains favour with much of europe, and zimbabwe falls out of favour, those roles may be reversed, so that mugabe can remain in his cocoon of luxury as his people starve. a desperate people turn to demagogues and radicals, and nowadays only supporters of mugabe's "Zanu PF" party are allowed food from aid pacages. mugabe is starving his enemies to death, while appearing to the world as simply a black racist who doesnt like "white folk", as he so elegantly puts it.

mugabe is using the land "redistribution" as a way of starving his enemies and his people into submission. once this is done, a stalinist regime will offer him the most power, and he will not hesitte to enact one, still blaming his country's troubles on "white folk". the exile of landowners in zimbabwe is a means to power, not an end.
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Offline Zeus

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2002, 02:53:50 PM »
I am not up to par on this issue however it seems like its reality in every sense considering the messed up state of african politics.
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Offline miclantecuthli

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2002, 05:33:58 PM »
Stop blaming communism, it has NOTHING to do with it!


Quote
the western press has told us that the only farms being siezed are those belonging to "colonial" whites
I'm glad to have a good newspaper, the "western press" I read has told the whole story.

It indeed is a terrible situation with only one purpose: power for Mugabe(he has a famous quote about the brittish government).
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Offline Zeus

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2002, 10:32:52 PM »
communism sucks regardless, and knowing the poor state of the african standard of living the people would embrace communism only to realize how it dicks them over.

  Every thing you read , papers , media, its all biased in one way or another so please dont act like what you read is The Truth.
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Offline Scars

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2002, 04:20:17 AM »
2 things;

1. Communism has nothing to do with the mess that Zimbabwe is in at the moment. It is true their 'leader' was a Marxist but those days are LOOOOOOOOOONG gone.

2. There is only a tiny chance that they would become Communist and most people in Zimbabwe hate communism just as much as you do zeus.
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Offline midos

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2002, 02:35:43 PM »
on the surface, it would appear to be seperate from communism, i agree, but consider the following:

1. almost every piece of land (farmland or no) was siezed by the government. sounds like the abolition of private property to me

2. a famine is a great way to get people in favour of ccommunism. to starving people, economic and social equality must sound pretty attractive. looking at it from that perspective, mugabe seems quite smart, as opposed to blindingly stupid, as he looks if you disagree with my theory

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2. There is only a tiny chance that they would become Communist

as good an arguement as that is, scars, id like to see some proof.

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most people in Zimbabwe hate communism just as much as you do zeus.

again, just an unfounded statement, probably with absoloutely no research whatsoever...  >:(
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Offline miclantecuthli

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2002, 05:04:29 PM »
on the surface, it would appear to be seperate from communism, i agree, but consider the following:

1. almost every piece of land (farmland or no) was siezed by the government. sounds like the abolition of private property to me

2. a famine is a great way to get people in favour of ccommunism. to starving people, economic and social equality must sound pretty attractive. looking at it from that perspective, mugabe seems quite smart, as opposed to blindingly stupid, as he looks if you disagree with my theory

The government don't occupied the farms, the war veterans and their supporters do. The owner change, put it isn't state property! Mugabe needs the support of the army, that's why he supports the actions.
He didn't "plan" the famine, the famine is a problem for the whole region, it's accidental, but it indeed helps the power-hungry Mugabe.
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Offline Scars

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2002, 09:03:39 PM »
why they hate communism:
the masses (non 'war veterans') will still work on a tribal level. A tribe has a hierachy while communism does not.

Most people are badly educated and thus would not have the brains to get a revolution going.
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Offline midos

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2002, 01:37:01 PM »
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Most people are badly educated and thus would not have the brains to get a revolution going.

since when has poor level of education stopped a communist revolution? china was badly educated, as was russia, and all the warsaw pact states. lack of education only helps a revolution, as there are less people to disagree with it, and more to chant "four legs good, two legs baaad!"

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The government don't occupied the farms, the war veterans and their supporters do. The owner change, put it isn't state property! Mugabe needs the support of the army, that's why he supports the actions.

incorrect. he does not "support" the actions, he sponsers them. they were not going on until mugabe declared it legal to sieze the land. sounds more like setting the trend, rather than following it.

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He didn't "plan" the famine, the famine is a problem for the whole region, it's accidental, but it indeed helps the power-hungry Mugabe.

famine is not at all common in zimbabwe, it is an extremely fertile, extremely well-nourished land. there hasnt been a famine there for decades.  why is it accidental? it does help mugabe, and it has been nothing if not benificial to his regime. mugabe is not a lumbering idiot, as so many people portray him, but a very calculating, intelligent, evil man.
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Offline miclantecuthli

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2002, 05:46:49 PM »
Zimbabwe is indeed very fertile, but the weather was very strange this year in that region: almost no rain, the whole region suffers from famine, not only Zimbabwe. But the occupation f the farms indeed plays a role.

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incorrect. he does not "support" the actions, he sponsers them. they were not going on until mugabe declared it legal to sieze the land. sounds more like setting the trend, rather than following it.
Oh, I must be wrong, I thought that they started without Mugabes support and that Mugabe "joined" later.

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since when has poor level of education stopped a communist revolution? china was badly educated, as was russia, and all the warsaw pact states. lack of education only helps a revolution, as there are less people to disagree with it, and more to chant "four legs good, two legs baaad!"

Do you know anything abaut the revolution in 1917? It wasn't a revolution of the masses, Lenin and some of his followers did it alone, there wasn't a big revolution. The countries of the warsaw pact became communist after ww2, they didn't had a real choice, they were forced by Russia.
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Offline midos

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2002, 04:36:48 PM »
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Do you know anything abaut the revolution in 1917? It wasn't a revolution of the masses, Lenin and some of his followers did it alone, there wasn't a big revolution. The countries of the warsaw pact became communist after ww2, they didn't had a real choice, they were forced by Russia.

erm, i think you're wrong. lenin and his cronies were in switzerland during the revoloution. they were then invited back to russia by the interim government, as an amnesty to all exiles. the revoloution was not a communist one, rather, it was simply the serfs rising up against their oppressors. most of them wanted a democratic state, maybe a constitutional monarchy, like in england. thats why the tsar and his family was left alive, and not killed immediately.

once lenin came into the picture, he convinced the masses that the interim government (which appears to have had noble intentions) was sindling them, and they would be under a tyranny once more.

a mob of serfs killed almost all the government, and put the communists in charge. after the elections, which (after being quite a failure for the communists) were ignored by lenin, russia became a totalitarian state.

Quote
Zimbabwe is indeed very fertile, but the weather was very strange this year in that region: almost no rain, the whole region suffers from famine, not only Zimbabwe. But the occupation f the farms indeed plays a role.

the region does suffer from famine sometimes, but not zimbabwe! crops are always abundant there, no matter the weather! its africa's breadbasket!
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Offline Scars

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Re:zimbabwe
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2002, 08:02:33 PM »
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Do you know anything abaut the revolution in 1917? It wasn't a revolution of the masses, Lenin and some of his followers did it alone, there wasn't a big revolution. The countries of the warsaw pact became communist after ww2, they didn't had a real choice, they were forced by Russia.

erm, i think you're wrong. lenin and his cronies were in switzerland during the revoloution. they were then invited back to russia by the interim government, as an amnesty to all exiles. the revoloution was not a communist one, rather, it was simply the serfs rising up against their oppressors. most of them wanted a democratic state, maybe a constitutional monarchy, like in england. thats why the tsar and his family was left alive, and not killed immediately.

once lenin came into the picture, he convinced the masses that the interim government (which appears to have had noble intentions) was sindling them, and they would be under a tyranny once more.

a mob of serfs killed almost all the government, and put the communists in charge. after the elections, which (after being quite a failure for the communists) were ignored by lenin, russia became a totalitarian state.

Quote
Zimbabwe is indeed very fertile, but the weather was very strange this year in that region: almost no rain, the whole region suffers from famine, not only Zimbabwe. But the occupation f the farms indeed plays a role.

the region does suffer from famine sometimes, but not zimbabwe! crops are always abundant there, no matter the weather! its africa's breadbasket!

What books have you been reading? Lenin lead the communist party into the government. From there he with Trozky and the rest of the inner circle of the party planned the Revolution. they were not Exiled. They went into hiding because if the white russians found them they would be killed. After the Revolution finished there was a civil war which took place for 2 years.

You are most likely thinking of the Germans. Germany let Lenin pass through Germany safely so that he could lead the Revolution on the agreement that he would pull the Russians out of the war. He succeded and impressed the germans no end.
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