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Author Topic: The value of S6 weapons  (Read 2319 times)

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Offline Aoitora

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The value of S6 weapons
« on: November 18, 2017, 04:02:22 AM »
My experience has been somewhat limited this edition to marines/orks/nids however I'm not feeling the love of S6 weapons these days.

Since 5th edition I had swapped BLs and EMLs for Scats and Scannons for anti-light/medium tank duties. In 5th they could suppress vehicles in 6/7th they could hull point them out fairly well.  In 8th they're pretty ordinary for taking on vehicles.

Up until you reach T8 your regular catapults are just as effective at taking on armour and you'll have a lot more shots with your side arms.

So perhaps Im doing it wrong how do they compare for infantry killing instead? Once again they arent what they used to be, able to instant kill T3 and losing ~17% damage against T4. Once again just throw small arms at it.

Aside from being able to advance and shoot Scannons (which is nice but Im not seeing much return in damage output really) and when looking to save points, why would I bother to take a Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser or Star cannon over BLance or EML?


Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2017, 04:33:24 AM »
A lot of it depends on application.

For fighting Vehicles, Bright Lance is easily the best weapon the Eldar have. The only other gun that can compare is the AeML. I highly recommend either of these two weapons for fighting vehicles.

Shuriken Cannons, Scatter Lasers, and Starcannons are all pretty cheap though, especially in their twin versions, relative to Eldar's anti-tank heavy weapons. They're effective against light and medium infantry, and Starcannons are great against heavy infantry, bikers, etc.

I take Shuriken Cannons often on my Wave Serpents because they are cheap and quite solid against Marines and Guardsmen. When my Wave Serpent is carrying something that doesn't have anti-tank firepower (like Dire Avengers) or isn't going to move much, Bright Lances are a great choice to round it out.

Shuriken Cannons are also very solid on the move, which is quite nice.

For Guardian Defenders, I find that Shuriken Cannons are really good since they have Battle Focus. Defenders are REALLY fast!
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2017, 04:35:25 AM »
I suppose it's just another shift in the meta.
In 7th ed, Scatter lasers were the best, so everyone ran with them. Even against vehicles. BLs had some uses against tank heavy armies.
Now in 8th, there are a lot of wounds to chew through on many units that have become popular (tanks, monsters etc) so the BL has become a very important weapon to include in an army. In essence, the meta has shifted from SLs to BLs (and shuricans).
Scatter lasers are in many ways inferior to Shuriken cannons now, because the latter are assault type weaponry and do not suffer the penalty for moving. That, in addition to having the the "rend" ability, means the shurican has gain tremendous momentum. The caveat is the shorter range, which some people feel gives the SL an edge still. Damage-wise, however, the shurican is the preferred weapon for dealing with infantry now. If you run Saim-hann, putting SLs on bikes will likely yield better results than shuricans, however.

So to answer your question: you likely wouldn't take SCs (star cannons) or SLs these days, but shuricans are very much part of the meta because they are assault type and not heavy type. BLs are, as you have surmised, also part of the meta now given the re-design of multi-wounded units. As for the EML, it's essentially a worse weapon for tank hunting than the BL, and a worse choice for killing infantry than the shurican. It's also the most expensive weapon choice we have currently. It's advantage is that it's a more versatile weapon than either of those two.
That being said, I don't see myself ever taking an EML. I'll stick to grabbing BLs for units I want to hunt monsters and tanks, and shuricans for units I want to hunt infantry.
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Offline Chaplain Swordwind

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2017, 05:51:14 AM »
So the only question asked in the original post is "why would I bother to take a Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser or Star cannon over BLance or EML?"  I can't think of many reasons honestly.  You mentioned saving points, or the ability to move and shoot the Shuriken Cannon without a penalty to hit.  I cannot really think of any other reason, as the Bright Lance is far superior for destroying high-toughness targets, and the missile launcher is versatile enough to destroy troops.

However, about half of that post was comparing S6 weaponry against basic Shuriken Catapults, and I can think of several reasons why they are superior to those.  Strength, range, rate of fire (per weapon), all superior to the basic weapon... this should be obvious.  There are a number of things you don't really want to allow to get close enough for you to employ your Shuriken Catapults, if you can help it.  Orks, Genestealers, Assault Marines, Khorne Berzerkers; these are just a few examples.  Against these or any other threat that you suggested might be dealt with just as efficiently with Shuriken Cannons as with S6 weaponry, I'd argue the opposite.

Still, there is something to be said for saving points; taking fewer upgrades across your army potentially allows you to add another unit; possibly shoring up whatever weakness you were planning to take those upgrades to address anyway.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2017, 05:57:58 AM »
S6 is not anywhere near as good as it used to be, still useful against T3 hordes and light vehicles and artillery with T5-6.
Against T4, S5 weapons are the new black, S5 are also not terrible against most vehicles and monsters as it still wounds them on a 5+.

As for the heavy weapons choices Brightlance is king, not because it's particularly good but because the other choices are worse. Starcannon before the Errata would have been an alternative but now it's only another bland S6 weapon.
The AEML still not bad in smaller games where you really need the versatility, but it's still not my first pick.

The shuriken cannon has some value due to it's cheap, especially the twin version, but the twin catapults are actually more effective than a single cannon and with doom around even more so.

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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2017, 01:25:12 PM »
G'day Aoitora!
Yup, agree with most of what has been said up there. BL's for armour, and Sh. Cann/Scats/stars for troops. Seeing as 8th is more horde friendly, I'm glad there are more weapons for this than armour... Be well!

Offline Aoitora

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2017, 10:57:32 PM »
I think the best way to articulate my thoughts is to say that I believe S6 (I'm mostly thinking Shuricannons as everyone seems to be mostly in agreement the others have fallen by the wayside) weapons are not really specialised in respects to being able to instant kill and hull out vehicles.

We've all noted they're poor at anti-armour these days and I compared the cannons to the catapults in an anti-infantry role due to the rate of fire. I feel that in an anti-infantry role the weapons havent kept up with the times (there's so many models on the table these days) and are lacking in RoF when taking in to account the platform they come on points wise in comparison to taking either guardians or avengers.

Admittedly range is a consideration when compared to guardians but not so much to avengers especially as I'm quite aggressive with mine (not to mention the table seems so small these days). A vyper with 2 cannons is almost as much as 10 guardians who put out way more shots.

What I'm thinking currently (with the exception of reapers) that to get the most bang for your buck you only need S4 and S8.

Perhaps my view of 8th is skewed from the  recent tournament I entered (only one Ive played in 8th) where anything goes. I took my vampire hunter. I saw multiple Mortarion/Magnus lists, Guilliman was on every second table, I actually fought against a Stormbird (never thought I'd even seen one of these in my life). In this environment I don't think our S6 weapons have a place.

I'm going to another event this weekend where I'm only fielding 2 cannons with the rest being S4 or S8 (and some reapers).

Ill also try playing around with some lists spamming S6 and see how it goes.

Anyway got any more thoughts or opinions drop 'em in. 8th is still somewhat new to me and I've only got a narrow experience of it so keen to hear how others are faring.

Offline Partninja

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2017, 01:45:58 AM »
S6 has value. It's just you can't get away with hit spam like you could in 7th. If you want to focus down really hard targets (S7/8) they want people to bring lances, wraith cannons, Las cannons, heavy Gauss cannons etc.

Shuriken cannons, scatter lasers and star cannons all still have their place. You have to use the tactics more than the number crunching if you want to win using less optimum options.

I've been working a few Biel-tan lists focusing on shuriken spam. Even at 1500 points I feel they might not fair well against a list with a lot of T6,7, and 8 with a lot of hit points(tyranids, razorback spam etc.).

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 12:13:23 AM »
High strength is always great to give you a huge plus in wounding the opponent. You should concern about is the negative modifier to the save value, since that will assure your kill.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 01:40:59 AM »
High strength is always great to give you a huge plus in wounding the opponent. You should concern about is the negative modifier to the save value, since that will assure your kill.

Yeah, for this reason I kinda like Shuriken Cannons. Even though they don't have the same rate of fire as Scatter Lasers (especially when stationary) because they can sometimes rend it's pretty cool. I actually even prefer them to Starcannons unless targeting multiwound opponents.
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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 07:08:24 AM »
I think Shuriken cannons in isolation are really good for their points. The main problem I see with them is that there just aren't that many heavy weapon slots available to an Eldar army. If you take War Walkers or Vypers to gain access to cheapest weapon slots, you are still spending significantly more on the chassis than the weapon. This leaves you with a similar problem to the pre-codex Fire Prism in that you have a lot of points rolling around not doing all that much.

Hypothetically, if the Shuriken cannon cost double the points and had double the attacks it would be an extremely strong and versatile weapon. 90 point Vypers or Walkers spitting out 12 attacks would be a real terror. Point for point the weapon is great, it just lacks the optimal platform.

The Scatter Laser is in a much worse position than the Shuriken Cannon. The cannon is still pretty effective against elite infantry, while the Scatter laser sacrifices that versatility to be only marginally more effective at shooting the dregs of the opposition. Perhaps if the Scatter Laser had 8 S3 attacks instead it would better suit its role, but would likely still be too cheap to consider taking.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 07:33:14 AM »
I definitely like shuriken cannons and I think scatter lasers have a place. With the prevalence of T3 armies namely Guard (but also bugs) wounding on 2's and at double the range of a catapult is really very solid. If you are coming up against hordes on regular basis I think Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser Jetbikes or War Walkers in an Alaitoc army is also very good, same for Saim-Hann. You are limiting return fire on range alone and with Fire and Fade you can keep them out of LOS. Throw conceal on a big unit of them and you could dish out some serious hurt on Conscripts, Hormogaunts, Termagants or really any kind of big blobs of infantry.

Also I've seen some amazing things from Tyranids in various bat-reps so I'm expecting (and hoping) they will become more prevalent. Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Lasers are a great option against some of the mid-tier bugs like Warriors etc.

They are not the panacea of the shooting phase like they were last edition but they are really useful. Before the codex I had great success with my shuriken cannon bikes going up against conscripts.

I definitely think choosing a platform for the scatter laser is tough. Other than Saim-Hann jetbikes (which I think are massively underrated) I just dont know where to put them. I wish you could take Guardian heavy weapon teams with bright lances, scatter lasers etc. because I'd DEFINITELY take those. Shuriken Cannons are easy. Wave Serpents, Vypers (very solid for getting a brigade going) even Warwalkers are solid for that role if you want to run them (great for bumping out deepstrikers too).

I think a key component in playing Eldar this edition is not looking for silver bullet solutions. You definitely have to take on the role of the Farseer style maestro again orchestrating a lot of different instruments to get the job done which is really rewarding. So I wouldn't write off those Str 6 weapons by a long shot... especially in this rapidly evolving meta.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 01:06:00 PM »
I'm with Cavalier on the subject of shuricannon vs scatter laser debate, and I strongly believe that the attitude towards scatter laser as inferior weapon is incorrect.

Basically, stationary scatter laser is better than shuricannon vs saves 4+ and weaker, and they are almost equal vs 3+. The only case where shuricannon actually outperforms scatter is TEQ. However it is worth noting that the actual damage output of both weapons vs TEQ target is so bad that the difference between them is insignificant - firing either weapon at TEQ is still a distinctly bad idea.

Given the fact that both weapons now cost the same, I'd say they are more than balanced against each other provided you can find a way around the pesky -1 to hit for moving.

In particular, after some heavy playtesting I can say that Saim-Hann scatter-bikes are nothing short of awesome - I'd even say that as infantry-hunters they are even better than they were in 7th. Also, believe it or not, in terms of wounds per point invested, Saim-Hann scatter-bikes are about just as good as Dark Reapers firing Starswarm vs MEQ, and better vs anything lighter than MEQ. All the while the 36" range of scatter does great job at keeping bikes alive, and on average they do stay alive much longer than shuricannon ones.

I also see WSs with twin scatter + CTM a viable option vs infantry heavy armies (of course you still upgrade the underslung cannon).
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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 06:42:22 PM »
For me, Scatter Lasers are only useful if you're taking advantage of the extra range. Otherwise, the Shuirken Cannon is a clear winner.

There is a case for small windrider squads sitting back on objectives blasting away, and with their high speed, can re-locate quickly for better targets, or in case of danger.

I just find that being able to advance and shoot shuriken cannons to be huge.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: The value of S6 weapons
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 07:10:07 PM »
Some people at my LGS are using Saim-hann windriders with Carter lasers and shuirken cannons with Alaitoc windriders.

With the way things are so fast, have long threat ranges, or can deep strike on turn one with 100% accuracy  makes either choice one of flavor and preference.

 


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