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Author Topic: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists  (Read 692 times)

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Offline Messiah2k02

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Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« on: March 29, 2009, 11:24:25 PM »
I have been playing 40k since 3rd Ed just came out and at 1 time i did have a DE army that was based around 3 scourge units. Since then i have wandered from Imperial Guard onto Eldar. However, i played a few games with my Biel Tan in 5th Ed and i am very unhappy about how much the changes to vehicle damage tables in my opinion made their tanks way over costed (especially Wave Serpents which were the focus of my force). Due to me enjoying fast mobile CC armies, i felt it only common sence to try the darker brethren because 'open topped' transports are much better. The 12" raider move then 2" deployment +D6 fleet and 6" charge made me grin like crazy, and the fact only destroyed results can damage troops inside made it seem even better! The problem is getting the correct army for my style of play and i am sure it might take me a few attempts. I have 500 pts ordered from mail order due to a mini competition i am playing with friends next week so would appreciate a few comments on my 500pt planned army and my bigger proposed 1500pts.

HQ:
Hermonculi + Destructor
Hermonculi + Destructor

Troops:
7X Dark Eldar Warriors + Blaster (Raider)
7X Dark Eldar Warriors + Blaster (Raider)

Elites:
6X Wyches + Succubus + Agoniser (Raider + Disintegrator + Night Shield)
=499

I proxy played this last night against some Tau on annihilate match because i was sure he stood no chance on either of the objective games, and granted i made a few mistakes which led to a few changes in the above list. I changed SC to Blasters incase my squads needed to target a tough independant character like a broadside or battlesuit. The Hermonculi will also generally split from the unit as soon as they exit the transport. This means i can seperate my shooting and react depending on how i am fairing. It also means my Hermonculi can charge and hold up any soft troop units that i fail to kill with rapid firing, last night the guys remaining 6 Fire Warriors rapid fired and wiped out more of 1 of my warrior squads. Also added the night shield incase there is lack of terrain i can use to hide behind as the wyches raider seem to be the focus of fire for all sorts of weaponry!


My 1,500 seems to be daily changing as i think again and decide against something - lol.

HQ:
Dracon + Shadowfield + Splinter Pistol + Close Combat Weapon + 5X Incubi (Raider + Night Shield)

Hermonculi + Destructor
Hermonculi + Destructor
Hermonculi + Destructor

Troops:
Raider Squad + Disintegrator (8X warriors + Blaster)
Raider Squad + Disintegrator (8X warriors + Blaster)
Raider Squad (8X warriors + Blaster)
Raider Squad (8X warriors + Blaster)

Elites:
8 Wyches + Wych Weapons + Plasma Grenades + Succubus + Agoniser (Raider + Horrorfex + Night Shield)
8 Wyches + Wych Weapons + Plasma Grenades + Succubus + Agoniser (Raider + Horrorfex)
8 Wyches + Wych Weapons + Plasma Grenades + Succubus + Agoniser (Raider + Horrorfex)

1499 pts
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 11:30:08 PM by Messiah2k02 »

Offline Khodexus

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 03:04:42 AM »
You want to give your haemonculi scissorhands (they're a steal at that price) and I'd easily drop a warrior from each raider squad to get them both splinter cannons in addition to the blasters.

I'd drop the night shields on your wych raider (it's going to be moving forwards to get the wyches into combat, which kind of negates the effectiveness of the shield). And definitely grab some horrorfexes (to pin units you're not able to charge).

Same advice all around for your 1500 pt list, and I'd upgrade that Dracon to an Archon if at all possible.

Splinter Cannons are a must against most opponents, especially in a gunboat raider.  Also, blasters and shredders generally see more use with t he wyches than the warriors, so consider throwing some on them (shredders can be very potent in 5th edition).

If you're regularly getting your warriors close enough to use blasters, then you're using them wrong.  Also, at least one small Incubi squad at 1500 pts would be very useful (probably more useful than a third wych squad), and also try to keep in mind where you're going to consolidate your wyches to.  Having a raider, or even better, a squad of mandrakes or grotesques can give them a solid cover save against shooting after the combat.

Hope these ideas help you out a bit.

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Offline Messiah2k02

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 12:42:50 PM »
I do love scissorhands and if i could refind the 10/15 points to put them back into the respective lists then that would be a high priority.

Now my mathematical mind is not sold by the splinter cannon. Let me throw some figures your way, the following is how many a splinter cannon will kill on average:
T4 with 3+ Save = 0.44
T3 with 4+ Save = 0.66
T3 with 5+ Save = 1.77
You really need to be fighting guard or dark eldar for them to become really killy. Compare this to it's half price blaster friend which kills any T6 or under with a 0.55 efficiency. It also allows me to potentially instant kill any T4 independant character/multi wound target, as well as have an extra alternative to tank/dreadnought killing.

Now why would i want to get my warriors this close? Well i was thinking of trying to fast swarm everything towards enemy lines in both 500 and 1500 point games. I was intending to use 1-2 night shield on warrior vehicles because on that last open stretch if there isn't any cover i can turn them sideways and give additional protection to the more valuable units in raiders. I'd rather they pop a warrior squad then an elite/HQ. I can also use a similar tactic during deployment if the terrain is lacking to hide everything well enough! An even if mobilised or wrecked they will still block LOS or give a obscured save.

From what i gather if the raider moves then the troops count as moving? Which means you will need to be 12" away even with your raider gunships after moving to rapid fire - perfect also for the blaster to more than likely kill something. An i'm not too sure about gunships anyway, it means the vehicle has not moved over 12" and therefore does not become obscured! I'd rather disembark 3 inches away from my foe , and in the warrior squads place hermonculi that detatch. I can see how the destructor rolls fare before firing the unit, and if the unit holds is neccessary charge the hermonculi at them if i think he will at least survive 1 turn of combat to stop them shooting the next turn. Another thought with gunships is after my wyches hit the floor, after killing their target they are pretty much auto dead the next turn. 2/4 warrior squads and 2/3 hermonculi right on their front line will give my opposition a few tough decisions to make!

The Dracon does have 5 incubi - says so along his character line at the end. But i'm not too sure about the Archon. For that extra cost alone i could get an incubi instead... I was planning to use the shadowfield to absorb any power fist/S6+ weapons/AP2-3 shots targetted at the Incubi squad. 2+ save is awesome but in semi abusing this, any failure is instant death, and i don't fancy losing 109pts (he would need to have a tormentor helm and punisher to be useful) model in the protection for the greater squad, when a 64pt model does it equally well.

I do have 3 horrorfex already, i suppose after a few battles if the night shields are proving useless i could dump them and get 3 more horrorfex and 3 scissorhands for hermonculi!

Just to help with any further feedback in the 500pt campaign it looks like i will be against: 2 tau, 1 necron, 1 white scars, 1 thousand sons, 1 sisters of battle and 1 ork player.  :-\

Offline Khodexus

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #3 on: April 2, 2009, 08:31:34 AM »
The problem with the blaster, and the reason the splinter cannon is more useful for the points despite the lower profile, is that you have to get within 12" to use it.  On a gunboat raider that means that even with nightshields you'll be getting rapid-fired with bolters (or something similar) the next turn.

Splinter Cannons allow you to fire from 24" away, and any weapon with an effective move/shoot range less than 30" is ineffective agains the raider.  Blasters make nice backup weapons, but when you can have both a blaster, and a splinter cannon, why not take both?

That torrent of fire on the splintercannon may not be that killy against space marines, but in all honesty, do you really want your warriors within charge range of those tin cans anyways?  Particularly without so much as a poisoned blade to fend them off with?

The Splintercannon gives the unit some much needed mid range firepower, and it will see alot more use than the blaster, which will fire maybe once or twice per game, instead of practically every turn (while they survive).  That's the real reason to take them.

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Current Projects: Necrondus – the Lost City, Codex: Dark Eldar – Revised.  C&C appreciated.

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Offline Messiah2k02

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #4 on: April 2, 2009, 11:26:44 AM »
Yeah but they are made redundant if my tactic is to just charge all 9 raiders fast across the board in turn 1, and then turn 2 hit 4 of their units in CC (3 wyches and 1 incubi), and use the 4 warrior squads and 3 hermonculi to park up near any remaining troop units and rapid fire/flame template them. In this regard the 24" shooting range is fairly useless, when it comes to spending 40pts on them! If i got 15-30pts free if i got rid of night shields, i'd be more eager to put scissorhands and 3 more horrorfex in rather than pay for SC.

The blaster may only get 1 shot but it's 50% likely of an instant kill! Be that marine or independant character. Worth the 5pts i think! An yeah i do want to be that close to marines, chances are they won't have a rediculous amount of units and if i have 3-4 CC specialists assigned it's simply getting the warrior units close enough to rapid fire for a bit of extra support, and get those lovely Destructors in range to maul their way through anything!

Offline Khodexus

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #5 on: April 2, 2009, 11:42:56 AM »
Well you seem to have your mind  made up already.  You came here for advice, but you seem highly resistant to the idea.  So why exactly did you bother posting up the list?

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Offline Messiah2k02

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #6 on: April 2, 2009, 12:00:49 PM »
I've not played with it, and have so far only bought 500pts of it. Need insight of people who currently actually play Dark Eldar to:

a) Will the tactic actually work with the units and raiders frailties. I'm used to Eldar tanks and their indestructable like ways, i am expecting to lose 2-3 vehicles in my march across the board but from experience of others am i likely to be taking much worse losses? If on average i am then i need to reconsider the whole army because it can't afford too many units on foot mid table.
b) Is there any alternative unit/weapon i have not pondered over already that would slide in well. I'm fairly confident there aren't any units due to the limited selection choice and the fact that none of them would really fit in except maybe Ravagers

I'm not resistant to your idea, in my original list all squads had Spinter cannons till i played some 500 pt games vs tau and marines and felt they were hugely over rated for their points cost. Unless you are using proper gunboats then i just don't see the practicality of them (stats wise). In a way i'm more playing devils advocate, i don't just want to jump on board any suggestions where the poster may not be fully aware of the tactics or planned game style. That would be brash indeed. I don't have my mind made up in the slightest, every time i take a glance over the list, or dare pick up the codex i find myself torn between making changes. If anything i have taken on board the scissorhands/horrorfex and night shield suggestions. I will probably playtest with each and see which works out more useful, so thanks for that. :)

Offline Khodexus

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #7 on: April 2, 2009, 12:21:02 PM »
Hmm, well in all honesty, if you want to run assault raiders instead of gunboat ones.  You'll still want both the blaster and splinter cannon, and you'll also want a sybarite with an agoniser.  Splinter Cannons may not be horrifyingly powerful, but they are still worth the points, and even in my assault squads (which for me tend to be 14 guys on foot) they do more damage than the blasters.

The agoniser is another thing that's well worth the points (including the prerequisite sybarite), perhaps even moreso than the blaster.  The Raider may not be as tough as the vehicles you're used to, but they are still damn fast, and your warriors/wyches can assault off them.  Plus, in a list like this you'll have quite a few of them, and while some will assuredly fall, you'll still have some left.  If you need to you can always have them go back to pick up the survivors.

One other thing to keep in mind, put your troop raiders in front of your wych raiders, if you're not running them all flat out, for that cover save.  You can afford to lose a few warriors, but your wyches are more costly, and more fragile to shooting, and they'll be doing more of the damage to boot.

Hope that helps (and sorry for the slightly sarcastic comment earlier).

"-That is all."
Current Projects: Necrondus – the Lost City, Codex: Dark Eldar – Revised.  C&C appreciated.

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Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Returning to DE - 500 and 1500 pt army lists
« Reply #8 on: April 2, 2009, 07:25:42 PM »
Will this playstyle work? Yes. Will it be compeitive? Yes. Is it my style? No.

The only real problem I see with this list is it's lack of ranged AT firepower. You've got 7 DLs, granted, but if your plan is to turbo everything as fast as you can towards the enemy, you're not going to be able to fire them. The blasters are nice, but at 1500, I'd recommend a sniper squad or 2 instead of one of those raiders.

Also, I believe that raider squads should be flexible, and I wholeheartedly support this belief by giving them some mobile firepower (SC + Blaster, as Khodexus says) and a sybarite with an agoniser. Enough punch in CC to deal with some of the lighter targets that you don't want to throw your wyches/incubi at, but enough firepower to down light infantry troops that threaten your scoring units. A very flexible unit in the army.

Now to answer some of your questions
a) Will the tactic actually work with the units and raiders frailties. I'm used to Eldar tanks and their indestructable like ways, i am expecting to lose 2-3 vehicles in my march across the board but from experience of others am i likely to be taking much worse losses? If on average i am then i need to reconsider the whole army because it can't afford too many units on foot mid table.
Yes, if you keep your raiders behind cover or behind another raider. It's going to be hard to hide a raider with 5th ed RLOS rules, but the least you could do is get a cover save.

Also, don't be too scared about units mid table. In standard fifth edition games, the farthest you can be from your opponent after a 24" turbo is roughly 12". Easily enough for a charge range. However, what you should be worried about is your units shot out of a downed raider. Keep them in cover (or make some with a flying raider) at all times.

Note: I'd recommend putting your troop raiders in front of your wych raiders.

Quote
b) Is there any alternative unit/weapon i have not pondered over already that would slide in well. I'm fairly confident there aren't any units due to the limited selection choice and the fact that none of them would really fit in except maybe Ravagers
Well, if you're going for quick assault theme, Reaver Jetbikes could be what your looking for. Along with the great new rules for an RJB lord, you may want to look into them (PM me if you have questions).

Ravagers aren't as effective in a close combat army. You're always worried bout shooting your own guys with dessies, and the tri-lance build is less effective.

Quote
I'm not resistant to your idea, in my original list all squads had Spinter cannons till i played some 500 pt games vs tau and marines and felt they were hugely over rated for their points cost. Unless you are using proper gunboats then i just don't see the practicality of them (stats wise). In a way i'm more playing devils advocate, i don't just want to jump on board any suggestions where the poster may not be fully aware of the tactics or planned game style. That would be brash indeed. I don't have my mind made up in the slightest, every time i take a glance over the list, or dare pick up the codex i find myself torn between making changes. If anything i have taken on board the scissorhands/horrorfex and night shield suggestions. I will probably playtest with each and see which works out more useful, so thanks for that. :)
Against Tau, I can see where splinter cannons would fail you. Against orks (the most compeititvely viable tournament option) or guard (who, after getting their new shiny codex, GRRRR, will come in greater numbers), SCs are very useful. Your mathhammer described it all. 1.77 kills with T3 and a 5+ save? If you have 6 pt guardsmen, the SC has made it's points back with a little to spare and only being fired once. If, however, you were shooting at, say, genestealers (with or without EC), you could wrack up two or three times the points of it in 1 round of fire.

Edit: After reading your first post over, you said an SC could kill 0.44 of an MEQ each turn? If that was a sternguard or vanguard vets, you could make your points back in 1 turn. Even if it was normal marines, it'd still be worth it, even if you only shot it once.

Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: April 2, 2009, 07:27:47 PM by Tauir - "The Demonic Demon" »
Whoa there.

 


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