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Offline MysticArcher

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2005, 05:00:03 PM »
Good questions Libertine

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However when I look at industrialised societies today I see a middle class that is more numerous than the proletariat.

No and that's part of the problem with the capitalist class system: the middle class doesn't exist. They're either workers who are deep in debt to support a lifestyle that attempts to emulate the bourgoise or they're small scale capitalists in which case they're the petit bourgoise

so there are still plenty of proletariat

Quote
In today’s world the revolution would take place in a less significant country and (IMO) swiftly be crushed by the forces of capitalism. Let us not forget that in today’s world the United States spends more on its armed forces then the rest of the world combined! What is the solution to this?

when a true Marxist revolution does occur, the first countries to revolt would be the ones you say 'would try to crush revolution in the name of capitalism', smaller less developed countries have fewer proletariat, peasants don't count, industrial urban workers are what make the proletariat

plus the idea is if an army went out to go fight it would weaken defense within whatever country it is and that'll provide more opportunity for revolution in that country. 


And certainly Marx never said "and the revolution will go off without a hitch" problems are expected and Marx was smart enough to not give specific directions to revolution, since they would only be relevant in his time period. Tomorrow the revolution may be a different shape then it is today, a perfect example today is internet "pircacy" which is class struggle taken to the new frontier of the internet - Marx certainly couldn't have predicted that.


In addition we learn about revolution from past mistakes the 20th century experiments in communism showed is pretty much what not to do and IMO pretty much debunked the vanguardist philosophy
« Last Edit: April 10, 2005, 05:06:05 PM by MysticArcher »
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Hmm, how about those "other" Christian "values"? You know, complete obedience to the clerical hierarchy, burning witches and heretics, persecuting scientists and other non-believers, launching crusades to grab this or that piece of desirable real estate, slavery, oppression of women and gay people, violence against children...stuff like that.

It's all "in the Bible"...which means they can bring any of it up whenever they think the moment is opportune.

Offline St. Bathory

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2005, 05:04:10 PM »
I have a genuine question/theory about communism/socialism.

How can revolution be achieved in the modern world???


its not likely to happen in europe or other devoloped nations.  communism would probably be popular in india, african nations and so on.

Communism was and is a pefect idea. But humans aren't perfect. Some people just got greedy.

despite the fact that it goes against every economic theory and principle in existance

Offline MysticArcher

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2005, 05:10:20 PM »
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despite the fact that it goes against every economic theory and principle in existance

yes, capitalist economic principles

I'm sure European kings said the same thing "that new concept of democracy goes against all our theories and priciples"
Quote
Hmm, how about those "other" Christian "values"? You know, complete obedience to the clerical hierarchy, burning witches and heretics, persecuting scientists and other non-believers, launching crusades to grab this or that piece of desirable real estate, slavery, oppression of women and gay people, violence against children...stuff like that.

It's all "in the Bible"...which means they can bring any of it up whenever they think the moment is opportune.

Offline St. Bathory

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2005, 05:21:26 PM »
what economic system was more effective than capatalism.  look at China.  it was in the dumps as a communist country and now that theyve pretty much ditched communism(they still say they are though) theyre going througha huge boom.  since you probably wont believe the China example, look at the differences between Hong Kong and North korea.  which one's better off?

Offline Captain Leonidas

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2005, 06:16:00 PM »
what economic system was more effective than capatalism.  look at China.  it was in the dumps as a communist country and now that theyve pretty much ditched communism(they still say they are though) theyre going througha huge boom.  since you probably wont believe the China example, look at the differences between Hong Kong and North korea.  which one's better off?

China ? A huge boom ? You mean the elite in the cities? 80% of the Chinese are still farming peasants whose condition are by NO means different than those improved in Mao times. Growing displeasant actually now starts to rise in within Chinese masses but their issues now goes to Japan, although to honestly say, the Chinese CCCP goals are now not communism but 'harmonious socialist society'
A Communist 'country' relies on fellow communist country to fully produce, and also with the other socialist allies. North Korea is a very hard and unfortunate example. Why would I say so ? because there is no nearby communist country to rely on, not including China, at least since the Sino-Soviet split, where NK follows Soviet still. NK is quite a bad example since its own isolationist policy increases their tremendous chance of being stranded (true communism country should actively engaged estabilishing diplomacy and spread revolution by popular support). Communism is a successful movement elsewhere; Latin America, India, and even democratic countries like Canada and Europe. If you see the newspaper, many people of the ex Eastern Bloc yearns for the return of communism, and even praises Stalin as their saviour (not that I like him)
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Offline Uzzy

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2005, 08:26:34 PM »
China recently recieved its last food aid shipment. Under the communist policies of Chairman Mao, millions of peasants starved. So the western world sent in food aid.

Due to recent economic liberalisation, China produces enough food to feed itself. It is now capable of sending Food Aid to other countries. So, in light of this, the last food aid shipment arrived in China last week.

The Moral of the Story?

Capitalism has done more to lift the Chinese poor out of poverty then Communist economic policies.

Sure, there are still masses of peasants in horrific conditions. But no-one said Capitalist Economic Policy would save the world overnight. It takes time, and above all, effort. Things have improved though, and China being lifted out of Food Aid is one example of that (when compared to North Koreas Collective Farming, which has caused millions of deaths due to famine over the past decade)

P.s. I also like Mysticarchers point that Internet Piracy is a new form of Class Struggle, taken to the internet. Its not. Its theft. Trying to dress it up any other way is disengenous.

P.p.s Libertines comment

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Let us not forget that in today’s world the United States spends more on its armed forces then the rest of the world combined! What is the solution to this?

The Solution is simple. Other nations take up the burden of world peacekeeper. Sadly, thats not going to happen.

Offline Scars

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2005, 08:42:55 PM »
Firstly, this is designed to be a sort of 'question and answer' thread for people wanting to find out a bit more about Communism, which is a very broad political movement. It is not a 'Capitalism vs Communism' debate. So if the mindless, circular debating doesn't end there I'll lock the thread

<<As I understand it Marxist theory holds that revolution could only be achieved in a country with a strong proletariat i.e an industrialised nation such as Germany or Britain etc.  That is to say Industrialised nations are the only ones with a suitably large proletariat, and the oppressive environment created by industrialisation and capitalism etc would lead the proletariat to rise up and seize power.>>

However Mao said that there was only 2 classes- the oppressed and the oppressor, thus peasants etc can form Communist governments. So not industrialised nations can have Communist Revolutions, of which there have been many. There have also been multiple revolutions in industrialised countries (Slovakia, Hungary, Barvaria), but sadly they were crushed by foreign counter revolutionary forces and the Russian (Soviet Union was form 1922) Red Army couldn't send any support due to being bogged down in the Civil War. So, according to classical Marxist doctrines you're correct, however I and most people don't strictly adhere to this thought.

<<However when I look at industrialised societies today I see a middle class that is more numerous than the proletariat. My own country the UK is a good example of this. Indeed thanks to globalisation many of the traditional proletariat jobs for countries like the UK are actually overseas in much smaller and ‘weaker’ nations. Thus under Marxist theory the opportunity for revolution in developed nations has passed. Only the poorer nations of the earth can now achieve revolution.>>

The Middle Class is part of the Proletariat. Of course the Upper Middle Class are unlikely to support any sort of Revolutionary movement, but they are still oppressed by the ruling elite. However they generally don't realise it and overall, aren't doing to badly out of it. Many great Revolutionaries have been of 'Middle Class' background- Lenin for instance. In my opinion people get bogged down in the whole Lower/middle/upper/working/ruling/whatever class when you can clearly divide people into two groups.

<<Let us say that revolution was achieved in one of these smaller nations, and the proletariat seized power. What happens next??? Under Marxist theory the revolution would spread. However Marx believed the revolution would begin in one of the more significant countries such as Britain or Germany. In today’s world the revolution would take place in a less significant country and (IMO) swiftly be crushed by the forces of capitalism. Let us not forget that in today’s world the United States spends more on its armed forces then the rest of the world combined! What is the solution to this?>>

As has been said, there will (most likely) be a war immediately after due to foreign counter revolutionaries (lead or atleast armed by the USA) as well as the last of the elite attempting to restore the old regime. During the war the workers would take control of all organs of civil power and revolutionise them and once the war was won the basics of Communism would be put into place, leading the way for a slow dissolution of a centeralised government and the establishment of Communism (that's a very simple way of putting things).

(This is a Maoist explination of things, a Trotskite, for instance, would probably say somthing very different)
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Offline Captain Leonidas

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2005, 12:11:30 AM »
As promised, now I will regurgitate my thoughts. Please forgive me for any confusion. Its 12pm and I've got half a company of brats pestering nearby.

Anarchism

A philosophy cum political movement opposing any form of coercive order, social hierarchy. In place of this force-imposed order however, is not a chaotic non order society, but a peaceful society based on the notion of popular cooperation of free individuals under direct democracy. Historically this Anarchism should be one of the first 'communist' ideology ever defined (Ca 400 BC). Greek, ancient Tao, both East and West have this ideology appearing but in both places were supressed by the ruling elite (Greek by the Greek states, China by the feudal princes). This philosophy places individual morality to be the absolute sovereign unbound by state, money or social order. The existence of money and social order prompted and activates human self defence and later form egotism, thus dividing society into hierarchies Mikhail Bakhunin and Peter Kropotkin has fused the anarchism theory into communism ideals and it is rare to see people claiming themselves as pure anarchist without being either a communist or syndicalist
One of the bone of contention in anarchism (that continues to both anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism) is how the society is achieved; whether by violent action via revolution or direct but non violent action, preferring to cripple economy systems and governments forcing them to concede and be assimiliated to anarchist society without blood.

Anarcho-Communism

Similar to anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho communism proposes a direct democratic society without any imposition on money, and in the stead of it, promoting gift economy. Society are based into syndicate / federations with specific production and are encouraged to give gifts to other federation to receive returns and survive. Without common gift-bringing to other federations, one federation might become extinct and that is why it is all important to keep in mind that the gift economy is for the good of all. It had been put to practice during the Russian revolution in regions of Ukraine and other places and was a success although later were replaced by a different system altogether. Currently anarcho-communism organizations engages actively in issues of labor,racism, opression and many others.
Their area of operation includes South America, Euro-Asian areas (the China western frontiers and many other Turkic nations), Middle East (where the most members are Jews who oppose the occupation of Palestine...basical ly anti-zionist Jews) with a small but growing significant number in Asia.

Anarcho-syndicalism

A wing of anarchist movement, it concerns about labor mainly and are actively engaged mostly in labor issues. It believes on the term of 'worker solidarity' that workers worldwide are in similar positioning against their employers and always pushes for direct action. The direct action here is a term whether to arrange strikes, sabotage, or other ways to gain attention and negotiate better terms to solve the problem.
In anarcho-syndicalism, worker's union and worker's solidarity group would form the future, and would be in future a self managing group, who the ruling elite will rely upon and unable to opress because the workers hold the dirty job responsibility.
Areas of operation commonly are labor unions, although not all labor unions are anarcho-syndicalist. They have quite a number of follower in Canada, Europe and Latin America.
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Offline Devern, The Unsung Hero

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2005, 04:07:03 PM »
Very good posting Scars.  I think we'll sticky this for the time being because it should save a lot of arguing about communism, and innane spammers. 
We'll figure out a more discrete way of putting this up sooner.
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2005, 06:50:03 PM »
Thanks for the very enlightening response Scars, and I hope I am using this thread as you intended.

However I find your Maoist leaning explanation has not provided me with the explanation I was seeking.

You concede that after the revolution takes place there will be a war led by the hyper power of the US against the countries/country that has achieved revolution, yet you have failed to explain how the communists will win this war. How can a country such as Algeria stand against the US? You say the workers (I find it interesting that you used the term ‘workers’ rather than ‘the peasants’ or ‘the oppressed’ here) will seize power, but are you seriously suggesting that American workers will seize control of the US? As with out this the revolution is doomed. However The chances of American ‘workers’ taking power are (IMO) currently non existent.

When Marx formulated his theories he couldn’t have predicted a global situation in which the worlds sole hyper power has total military domination over the rest of the world and had virtually no proletariat (as he understood the term). With what little proletariat it has being successfully subdued by the opium’s of the people i.e so called democracy and religion etc

I belive there are two solutions to the US total domination of the world. One is for revolution to occur in a countries such as India or China. These countries have nuclear weapons and so are virtually immune to US military invasion. And they have the natural resources and man power to support the ‘lesser’ nations that achieve revolution. However this method runs the risk of Nuclear War (not cool for any of us) and it will soon become obsolete if ever the Star Wars program is up and running.

The second method is concerned with winning the hearts and minds of the oppressors. The oppressors may not be proletariat, but as Lenin proved any person of any class can develop the conshusness (spell??) of the proletariat and so become proletariat them selves.

Communists/socialists need to show the oppressors the suffering of the oppressed, and convert them to the cause thus revolution can be achieved from above rather than below (as in Germany). To convert the oppressors communists should learn from the examples of history. The example that Jesus left to his followers lead to the Christianity overturning the Roman empire, The example that Ghandi gave led to the defeat of the British empire.

To convert the oppressors show them how much more you are than they! Rather than rioting in Seattle against capitalism you should instead use non violent means. If they beat you turn the other cheek, burn yourself to death if you have to!

The US military machine is invincible and will not be over come by violence, but through pacifist methods you can win American public opinion and achieve the revolution you seek.

Offline Captain Leonidas

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2005, 08:52:21 PM »
When Marx formulated his theories he couldn’t have predicted a global situation in which the worlds sole hyper power has total military domination over the rest of the world and had virtually no proletariat (as he understood the term). With what little proletariat it has being successfully subdued by the opium’s of the people i.e so called democracy and religion etc

You are quite right there. However if we see in a wider view, in this position US is a nation of capitalist opressors with very naive lackeys supporting it and a whole world of ploretariats. If the world revolted one by one leaving US isolated, US in time, would have to concede or turn inwards and show its opressive nature. Then the Americans would have a rude awakening.

Communists/socialists need to show the oppressors the suffering of the oppressed, and convert them to the cause thus revolution can be achieved from above rather than below (

To convert the oppressors show them how much more you are than they! Rather than rioting in Seattle against capitalism you should instead use non violent means. If they beat you turn the other cheek, burn yourself to death if you have to!

The US military machine is invincible and will not be over come by violence, but through pacifist methods you can win American public opinion and achieve the revolution you seek.

This I am quite baffled. The ruling class is not a fairy-tale educated and naive group of individuals as so not to be aware of the mass' condition and feelings. That is why they are the ruling elite. Now with their knowledge they either ignore them turn to corruption, or use them well, with  the last being the latest in reality practice.

Opressors of communism and ploretariat are fully aware of the situation and they are using it to the fullest. Sports, Pop culture, and TV had become such a strong opium of the masses that they could become wholly religions themselves, with very much wastage of resources went into producing souvenirs cards and other what nots while millions starve all around the world.

And, no, the American war machine is not invicible. Vietnam has proven it and it can be proven again.

PS: I love you, Devern! Now we can have a solid base of everlasting education for communism  ;D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 08:54:39 PM by Commissar Leonidas »
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Offline Scars

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2005, 09:06:04 PM »
<<You concede that after the revolution takes place there will be a war led by the hyper power of the US against the countries/country that has achieved revolution, yet you have failed to explain how the communists will win this war. How can a country such as Algeria stand against the US? You say the workers (I find it interesting that you used the term ‘workers’ rather than ‘the peasants’ or ‘the oppressed’ here) will seize power, but are you seriously suggesting that American workers will seize control of the US? As with out this the revolution is doomed. However The chances of American ‘workers’ taking power are (IMO) currently non existent.>>

Firstly, termonology. As I follow the idea of there being 2 classes (the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie) as opposed to the Working/Middle/Upper idea regarding class. I tend not to use Proletariat as generally spell it wrong and some people might not know what it means so I'll use 'workers', as that's what the Proletariat do- sell their labour. If I'm talking about specifically urban workers, I'll say it. If I'm talking about the ppopulation as a whole, I'll either say the People or the Masses.

Anyway, as for the question. How can Communists stand up to the might of the USA? Through the Peoples War as laid down by Mao, which essentially involves not only fighting the war along Guerilla and as the Communists strength grows, more conventional war but also extensive base building among the people in teh form of setting up community services- schools, medical facilities etc etc all provided and paid for by the Communists. If the people support the peoples war the only way it can be defeated is through wide spread genocide, which is beyond even the Americans. As for you talking about Algeria, Algeria defeated the French who, despite constantly being made fun of, have a very good army and it is one of the few Western armies with extensive real combat experience (until September 11th the modern American army had had limited real combat experience, the majority of American troops sitting on their asses in Germany, South Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo etc). What you're saying was said about Vietnam, how could a bunch of peasants with captured guns and red flags defeat the strongest military nation on the face of the planet? In Nepal, people scoffed the Maoist Peoples War when it started 1996, now it stands as probably the strongest, largest, best equipped and trained irregular armies in the world. People said the NPA in the Philipeans would be quickly and easily crushed, 20 years later it's still fighting. The Maoists in India (lead by the Communist Party of India (Maoist)) controls large areas of land and has the support of millions of people, even though India has a very large and relatively experienced army.

As for America, America would be the last to have a Revolution. Much work needs to be done, not only to educate the people and weaken the US military and other such counter-revolutionary forced but a Class Consciousness has to be developed. In my opinion that's what the American workers lack and that's what needs to happen before any major progress can be made.

<<When Marx formulated his theories he couldn’t have predicted a global situation in which the worlds sole hyper power has total military domination over the rest of the world and had virtually no proletariat (as he understood the term). With what little proletariat it has being successfully subdued by the opium’s of the people i.e so called democracy and religion etc>>

Once again, this is to do with the lack of a Class Consciousness. I would say that Materialism is the opium of America. People are taught that if you have a job, TV, a car and a house your life is complete and can't get any better. Yes the workers in the USA do have it pretty good compared to, say, Nepal. But poverty is measured by contridictions among the masses, and there are many and they are huge.

<<I belive there are two solutions to the US total domination of the world. One is for revolution to occur in a countries such as India or China. These countries have nuclear weapons and so are virtually immune to US military invasion. And they have the natural resources and man power to support the ‘lesser’ nations that achieve revolution. However this method runs the risk of Nuclear War (not cool for any of us) and it will soon become obsolete if ever the Star Wars program is up and running.>>

Well, India is being worked on as we speak. Several proviences are controlled by the Maoists, and at the moment the Indian and Nepalese Maoists are cooperating and attempting to build a stable area of Maoist control (A large square thing that is half in India, half in Nepal) in which they can consolidate, plan and continue to fight the Peoples Wars more effectively. The problem with India, is it is so large. So the Maoists control around 3 proviences and have much influence in about another 6- that's still a tiny fraction of India as a whole. In my opinion they need to start doing more work among various 'untouchables' and the Tamil, so as to build a greater support base spread over more of the country. But yes, your idea is right, there needs to be some counter balance to the US domination.

<<The second method is concerned with winning the hearts and minds of the oppressors. The oppressors may not be proletariat, but as Lenin proved any person of any class can develop the conshusness (spell??) of the proletariat and so become proletariat them selves.>>

In a way, Lenin took the old French Revolutionary model in which the rulig class were in some way 'tainted' and thus couldn't really be part of the new society. Mao on teh other hand said that they could be reeducated and incorperated into the new society.

<<Communists/socialists need to show the oppressors the suffering of the oppressed, and convert them to the cause thus revolution can be achieved from above rather than below (as in Germany). To convert the oppressors communists should learn from the examples of history. The example that Jesus left to his followers lead to the Christianity overturning the Roman empire, The example that Ghandi gave led to the defeat of the British empire.>>

No, a Revolution from above will result in teh alienation of the people and turn the movement into a reactionary one. See: Syria. See: Iraq. The ruling class will never give up their position, as that would cause their power to evaporate and them to lose all the privilages that they have gained. This is why there must be a mass movement by the people to remove them from power.

<<To convert the oppressors show them how much more you are than they! Rather than rioting in Seattle against capitalism you should instead use non violent means. If they beat you turn the other cheek, burn yourself to death if you have to!>>

Peaceful and legal protests have their place, but they cannot bring about great social change. This is where you'll talk about Ghandi- Ghandi got rid of British exploitation and brough in Bhramin exploitation and strengthened the Caste system. So not only is india as Capitalist society, it has the strange combination of being a Fuedalist-Capitalist society.  

<<The US military machine is invincible and will not be over come by violence, but through pacifist methods you can win American public opinion and achieve the revolution you seek.>>

The peoples war can overcome any military force, as has been proved multiple times. More over, the US military is built by the people. If people stop joining, or infact join it and mutiny (as was done by the PLP in the 60s/70s as well as on a larger scale in Russia before 1917). A Peoples War in the USA could be won, but much work would have to be done and there would most likely have to be international support for the revolutionaries in the USA (like the Chinese and Soviets supporting the NLF [Viet Cong])
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2005, 10:47:01 AM »
<<This I am quite baffled. The ruling class is not a fairy-tale educated and naive group of individuals as so not to be aware of the mass' condition and feelings. That is why they are the ruling elite. Now with their knowledge they either ignore them turn to corruption, or use them well, with the last being the latest in reality practice.>>

This takes a rather dim view of humanity, one I do not share. I believe that any human is cable of extreme ‘good’ and extreme ‘evil’. In many ways I believe humans are socially constructed  I include the ruling elite in this. The Eperoror of Rome who got his jollies from feeding Christians to lions was converted to Christianity  through courage and love. Communists can convert the oppressors using the same method.

<<And, no, the American war machine is not invicible. Vietnam has proven it and it can be proven again.>>

Im sorry but I do not agree with this at all. In Vietnam the US was merely a super power rather than the hyper power that it is today. In the Vietnam war, the US  faced an opposition that was baked by communist superpowers such as the USSR and China. In today’s world the US spends more on its armed forces than the rest of the world combined and would face an opposition that does not have the support of a super power. The US is invincible in a conventional war and will rapidly become invincible to all military wars once star wars is in place.

<<Anyway, as for the question. How can Communists stand up to the might of the USA? Through the Peoples War as laid down by Mao, which essentially involves not only fighting the war along Guerilla and as the Communists strength grows, more conventional war but also extensive base building among the people in teh form of setting up community services- schools, medical facilities etc etc all provided and paid for by the Communists. If the people support the peoples war the only way it can be defeated is through wide spread genocide, which is beyond even the Americans>>

But this presumes the Americans won’t try to nip the revolution in the bud. As soon as revolution is achieved the US will crush it instantly it will not spread or at least will only spread locally. To me it seems the only possibility of communist revolution lies in India or China. But even here revolution will only spread locally.

<<As for you talking about Algeria, Algeria defeated the French who, despite constantly being made fun of, have a very good army and it is one of the few Western armies with extensive real combat experience >>

But we (Algeria) ‘only’ defeated a super power not a hyper power. The French army though formidable was not invincible. The US spends more on its militery than the rest of the world combined. You can not compare the US army of today to the French army of the 60’s. It is folly to try to take them on through militaristic means.  Communist can only overcome America with words. They are human beings and like us can be made to feel compassion.

<<In Nepal, people scoffed the Maoist Peoples War when it started 1996, now it stands as probably the strongest, largest, best equipped and trained irregular armies in the world. People said the NPA in the Philipeans would be quickly and easily crushed, 20 years later it's still fighting. The Maoists in India (lead by the Communist Party of India (Maoist)) controls large areas of land and has the support of millions of people, even though India has a very large and relatively experienced army.>>

Non of these armies you mention are close to a victory. And even if victory were achieved US retaliation would soon be at hand.

<< I would say that Materialism is the opium of America. People are taught that if you have a job, TV, a car and a house your life is complete and can't get any better. Yes the workers in the USA do have it pretty good compared to, say, Nepal. But poverty is measured by contridictions among the masses, and there are many and they are huge. >>

Agreed However what we seem to disagree on is this. IMO revolution would need to be achieved in the US before any other nation as the hyper power of the US would crush revolution in most parts of the globe. Since the US is military is invincible communists must attempt to win over the hearts and minds of Americans through pacifist methods.

<<In a way, Lenin took the old French Revolutionary model in which the rulig class were in some way 'tainted' and thus couldn't really be part of the new society. Mao on teh other hand said that they could be reeducated and incorperated into the new society. >>

I was referring to how despite Lenin being upper class he had a proletariat Consciousness.

<<No, a Revolution from above will result in teh alienation of the people and turn the movement into a reactionary one. See: Syria. See: Iraq. The ruling class will never give up their position, as that would cause their power to evaporate and them to lose all the privilages that they have gained. This is why there must be a mass movement by the people to remove them from power.>>

This is where you and I differ fundamentally I am of the opinion all people have the potential to  do good. Communists should utilise this.

 


Offline Field Marshall Duke Umarth Morte

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2005, 02:04:12 PM »
as much as i do agree that communism at its purest level (All men are created equal etc..) is a good thing, it fails to take account of one major factor. Mans Greed. Without this there would have been  no need for a revolution in France, Russia or the former Communist bloc. however that is beside the point. what I wanted to ask you hardline Commies out there is how do you take account of Mans Greed when preaching about your communist doctrines?
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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2005, 08:44:29 PM »
Quote
I am of the opinion all people have the potential to  do good.

Potential does not have to be realized. I doubt our american buer...beurgw...ric h people will suddenly grow sympathetic and help the little men out? Yeah right.

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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2005, 09:33:40 PM »
Quote
I am of the opinion all people have the potential to  do good.

Potential does not have to be realized. I doubt our american buer...beurgw...ric h people will suddenly grow sympathetic and help the little men out? Yeah right.

were you trying to spell "bourgeois"?
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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2005, 10:23:38 PM »
what I wanted to ask you hardline Commies out there is how do you take account of Mans Greed when preaching about your communist doctrines?

Depending on your definition of being 'hardline' I am unsure who you direct this question for.

Anyway, man's greed is a defence mechanism according to anarchism. This happens because the group mechanics change when order is imposed and as the order imposed, equality formerly a status in within primitive groups were lost rpompting competition in within the society itself. In that essence I believe man's greed is NOT part of human nature, rather, a social value and when communism takes place, it is expected to disappear.
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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 03:42:17 AM »
Hm... know any socialists that I can get in touch with in Palmy, Scars?

Well at least I think I am one. Don't really believe in revolution, or eliminating government. Just wanna see the rich take care of the poor for a change. That makes me one, right?
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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2005, 02:32:42 AM »
 Why should the rich have to help you? Most rich people at some point in there family history had someone who went out there working really hard to become rich. If you want to be rich get out there, and work for it. The rich already help you by paying more in taxes then any other class.
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Re: Communism: A Tour
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2005, 02:57:44 AM »
Why should the rich have to help you? Most rich people at some point in there family history had someone who went out there working really hard to become rich. If you want to be rich get out there, and work for it. The rich already help you by paying more in taxes then any other class.

which is offset by the fact that they earn a whole lot more than you and pay a whole lot less in tax as a percentage of their pay. combined with the fact that only one person in a whole line of rich people actually earned their richness (as you claim) then everyone else in that line is just a ne' er do well playboy, sponging of the family fortune.
and why should the rich help you? because the rich only acount for 1 fifth of the worlds population, yet account for over 80% of the worlds wealth.
many people DO get out there and earn their living. and you know what? its a sh*t living too. people work their whole lives for the rich people that you hold in such high esteem and never see more than a fraction of the money that they deserve. poor people stay poor and they live in crappy lives with crappy pay and crappy jobs. the only people left to help them are the rich people. there is no such thing as the 'middle class', only p*ss rich and sh*t poor. maybe you dont live in a sh*t enough life like most of us to understand this. lets put this in perspective.

THIS IS WHY COMMUNISM IS BETTER FOR THE COUNTRY THAN CAPITALISM!
YOUR ATTITUDE IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY DEMOCRACY DOENST WORK!

simple enough?

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