Topic: Open discussion on SC's

[legionnaire]

Well seeing as in this recent codex seems to pack full with the buggers i think its about high time we got to talking about them.

Who you ask well all those dang Special characters.

So with this thread i hope we can get general strategies on each of the special characters in our new codex. Useful tactics, best squad layout, best why to use them.

Now lets keep this civil and lets keep the SC dislike on the low and really focus on the use of these guys.

So up first we'll start with Creed, Kell, Straken, and Yarrick.

[Markay]

Well I think the first thing to point out is that most (or all) special characters in our codex should be used with extremely complimentary lists if you want to really make the most of their abilities.

From a truly fun point of view our codex does offer us a great selection of characters to model, paint, put to battle and of course to slay. That's exactly the reason I plan to make most of them for myself!

Army list building - Often it just isn't worth paying the large price tags for these choices unless they do something that'll either fill a gap in your army or boost your whole armies effectiveness.

Characters like Straken and Creed absolutely require you to devote a big chunk of your army to fit their abilities. With Creed this will probably be a case of buying shooty squads and units to compliment and defend said squads. With Straken you'll have to be careful with your wargear selection in order to make the most of his special rules, neither character is worth it alone (they both require manpower which can make use of their magic powers).

Cheaper characters are a little easier to fit in IMO. If you think you can make use of a tougher and sneakier objectives unit then a Harker squad with plamaguns could work, if you're sick of enemy terminators or obliterators terrorising your lines then Marbo could be a useful choice.

[JusticeCetin]

Alright, well since this thread seems to lack organization, i am going to put down every one i can think of, and my opinion on them.  This will give us somewhere to start. 

Lord Castellan Creed- Definitely an interesting choice.  Requires a very shooty gunline army, but allows you to get those pesky orders into the HWS's.  Definitely as Markey said, requires a list built around him
Color Sergeant Kell-  Finally can be acquired seperately of his master.  Is the clinchpin of allowing HWS's to have high LD for taking tests, you should really run these two together.  both have a decent Statline, great compared to IG, but not to anyone else. 
Knight Commander Pask-  almost seen exclusively in a Vanquisher, but also reasonably effective in an exterminator as well for anti MC effective.  Inferior to Chronius, but for cheaper. 
Sergenat Bastonne- If you intend to have this veteran squad outside of normal order range, but you would really like to twin-link those melta or plasma guns, bastonne can help with that.  However, i have found that with Melta squads, Harker is a more useful choice.  Bring Bastonne with Plasma squads in the field that are hunting MEQ or MC. 
Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken- argueably the best statline available to IG, and assault potential to boot.  Put him with a CCS with melta bombs, and death incarnate to tanks.  put him with bodyguards and even more assault potential.  The possibilities are limitless, if you have the points to spare, he costs alot. 
Guardsman Marbo-  For his point cost, he is argueably the best SC we have.  His ability to appear, much like a lictor, and wipe out an entire squad of marines with his demo charge is invaluable.  He is only one man though, with very little long term survivability, so be wary of deploying him too far in KP games. 
Gunnery Sergeant Harker- Anyone say Badass??  This guys relentless and heavy bolter make him work perfectly with a shotgun/melta vet squad.  Either infiltrate or outflank in a Chimera. 
Commissar Yarrick- IMO the worst SC we have.  He is cool, his fluff is awesome, he is ALOT of points for combining a mobile LC with a little survivability.  I would rather  get 2 LC's and a Priest for that much, and i have now basically made Yarrick, but i don't have to deal with No retreat!
Captain Al'rahem- Outflank an entire Platoon!?!? interesting for mechanized forces, or very large platoons.  imagine 5 chimeras barrelling in on the enemies flank, guns blazing!
Commander Chenkov- would be good, if the upgrade to make conscripts useful was not so expensive.  You have to be wiling to invest almost 300 points to make this a useful setup. 
Mogul Kamir- Rough Rider upgrade.  If i used Rough Riders i might use him.  Fearless is important to make sure that one shot you invested so much in doesnt run away.
Nork Deddog- useful when combined with Straken or an assault based CCS. 

So if i had to establish a tier system, here it is
Teir 1- useful almost always, not list dependent, and cost effective
Guardsman Marbo
Knight Commander Pask
Gunnery Sergeant Harker
Sergeant Bastonne
Tier 2- Useful in dedicated squads, can be pricey
Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
Nork Deddog
Castellan Creed
Color Sergent Kell
Mogil Kamir
Tier 3- useful only when large amounts of points/soldiers are dedicated to their service
Captain Al-rahem
Commander Chenkov
Tier 4- can be replaced cheaply with non SC's
Commisar Yarrick

Hope that helps get discussion going. 

[syth773]

i would say THE best SC in the codex has to be straken.  He's got marine like stats and armor with a chain first that hits on his initiative.  You dont NEED to have a bunch of close combat squads near him to be useful, any guard squad near him gets a huge boost in close combat.  a blob squad of 20-30 guardsman + 2-3 sergeants with power weapons and a commisar with a power weapon turns into a close combat monster, especially if they get the charge.  rough riders wound space marines on 2+ and hit before almost any other unit in the game (aside from some really elite units like harliquins and banshees).  Straken can single handedly turn your mass of weak squishy guardsmen into some angry, chest thumping squishy guardsmen.  they will still die in droves but they will throw a few beefy punches before they go down.  I took down a space wolf lord down with a furiously charging guard blob squad, mass attacks at S4 I4 ftw.

now for other useful SC's
marbo - a very accurate demo pack that you can put whever you want, i once took out 4 out of 5 greyknight terminators that had just teleported next to my army in preparation for a charge with his demo pack.  and he'll force the enemy to pour a lot of fire into him in order to kill him (if he's in 4+ cover his stealth gives him 3+, go to ground and he's go 2+, good luck trying to kill him within anything less than concentrated mass fire).  if he manages to live past the turn he enters the game he can assault and take down a few more models before he finally goes down.  the only real downside to him is if your game is taking kill points into account, as he is a very easy kill point for the enemy to get, but as far as simple points he almost always makes well above what he costs.

Harken- i use this guy with a squad of veterens that has 3 sniper rifles and another heavy bolter.  that gives 6 heavy bolter shots and 3 sniper rifle shots and 5 lasguns all at BS 4 with infiltrate and stealth.  these guys are prefect for protecting a flank and are hard as heck to kill as when they go to ground they almost always have a 2+ or 3+ cover save.  great for shredding regular squads or finishing off an almost dead squad.

the other SC's are very situational and/or very expensive.  some of them like creed and yarrick are only viable in apacolypse scale games as their cost doesnt justify their benefits in smaller games.  others like kamir have rules that really hurt them (having a guard unit that is always trying to assault the enemy can end up really badly).  the 3 mentioned above are the ones i find useful in 90% of the games i play, maybe not all of them together but definitely at least 1 or more of them.

[Gurney]

I'll focus on the two I use most, Creed and Kell. They go together like PB&J, using Creed's extra orders (as well as special orders) with Kell's nearly automatic pass, is almost too perfect a combo. I don't see Kell being that useful on his own. It's nice to get the Ld boos for HWS orders, but a vox network would be cheaper (and about as effective) for regular infantry and vet squads. So I would say Creed is definitely the peanut butter in this PB&J, as peanut butter has so much more usefulness on its own (ummm, peanut butter).

Creed is most useful in armies built around orders. Yes, it's nice to have the outflank ability, but there are easier ways to gain outflank for some units if that's all you're getting him for. His larger command bubble means even units you might normally disregard for orders will be able to benefit from his command abilities, and the ability to issue twice as many orders is always a big plus.

His ability to issue the normal six company commander orders is a nice bonus for this order issuing machine, but it's the earlier mentioned ability to issue four orders a turn that really makes him shine in issuing orders. With him and one PCS, you have the ability to issue five orders a turn, so everyone has a chance to get that special order sent to them during the turn. The new order, "For the Honor of Cadia" is a great plus for a Guard army hoping to improve its assault abilities. It is the order that turns even the lowly conscripts into a unit to be feared in an assault, and one of the few ways conscripts actually become useful again in this 5th Ed mobbed up infantry platoon world.

The cherry on top, so to speak, is the previously mentioned ability to flank a unit that normally cannot outflank, and can be a useful and worrying element to an enemy waiting for a squadron of Russ' (to name one option) suddenly rolling into their lines.

On to Kell, the color sergeant (or sergeant major) to Creed, and a nice bonus to his abilities.

The first and biggest advantage I can see is "listen up, maggots!", and this is the number one reason I can see to take this man. The ability to nearly guarantee that any unit, including the HWS, will pass an order from their officer, is priceless, and cannot be discounted in a good old Guard army. Making sure that your lascannon team will definitely pass the order to "bring it down", and then "get back into the fight" after hitting the deck during an enemies turn of shooting is fantastic.

The problem is that Kell is mostly a modifier, and not really that effective on his own. He doesn't even become a bodyguard unless he is serving with Creed, and that limits him to usually being Creed's color sergeant in my opinion.

If you are going to use only one of them in an army list, I think the choice becomes Creed without a doubt. Especially considering there are only 5 points difference between their respective cost. So my humble opinion is, Creed is worth taking in an orders heavy army, while Creed and Kell are always worth taking together in a list, but Kell should probably be skipped on his own in any list.

[Tallarn Commander]

Overall, I have had a positive experience using Captain Al'Rahem in my Tallarn 23rd Regiment.

I don't always take him, but I do take him about half the time.  My army is Tallarn after all.

Here are some thoughts on my uses of Al'Rahem.

I usually tool his platoon out with a flamer or two, 4-5 meltaguns, a pair of voxes, meltabombs, and power swords and I either take a 26-trooper blob with commie or a 36-trooper blob with commie.  If I can spare the points it is also nice to toss in Priestess Badra and her eviscerator.  Yes, that gets expensive and runs 320-460 points.  Plus, add in 30 points for the CCS' astropath--this advisor really makes the Al'Rahem gambit less of a gambit and more of a tactice.  However, you're talking an awful high points cost for points that could often be spent in nifty things like tanks, vendettas, meltavets, and platoons of PBI.  Thus, I really only take him in games of 2,000 points or more. 

Note that in a 2000-point hybrid list I often run Al'Rahem as a 26-trooper 5 meltagun-platoon and support him with:
-3 vanilla LRBTs
-2x36-trooper LC-plas platoons (one of which is fully mechanized into chimeras) and in which one of the PCS' is kitted out with meltaguns and meltabombs
- A vendetta for this PCS squad to ride in
-a LC/vox/standard CCS (Captain Assad or Captain Khomeini commanding)

Since the new IG Codex came out May of 2009 I have learned there are two ways to use Al'Rahem and his blob:
1.)  The wrong way--outflank him in onto a flank unsupported by anything else in your army.  If deployed alone, Al'Rahem and platoon will usually kill something and then die horribly.
2.)  The right way--either outflank him in onto a flank that is adjacent to my gun line or move him in somewhere else far away from my gunline with 1 or 2 supporting flanking units such as stormies, scout sentinels, or vendetta/valks with meltavet squads or, in this case, PCS meltagun squads.  I have also supported him with a meltagun blob platoon which deploys in my DZ and then uses "Move! Move! Move" to run across the board and link up with Al'Rahem's platoon on the other side of the board by turn 3 or 4.  If deployed in tandem with other units, for some reason, Al'Rahem's lethality reaches a sort of critical mass that allows him and/or his blob to survive to contest enemy objectives and cause mayhem.  Well, come to think of it, usually just his blob survives because a squad of 5 IG troopers with 3 or 4 meltaguns, a nifty sword, and a plasma pistol just hanging out in an enemy DZ for some reason has a low life expectancy. 

His orders ability (especially Bring it Down! and Move Like the Wind!) also grant me fun and potentially effective tactical options.  Although, for some reason, he is better at successfully screaming BiD! than any other order.  This is not a bad thing. 

Note that in 40K plans often go "awry," as the vox man said.  While the ability to deliver special weapons shots and infantry blobs onto enemy DZs (usually on Turn 2) is good, it has its risks and it will not always work out.  The IG are just squishy mortals after all and sometimes they jump out, shoot/assault horribly, and die.  When the platoon dies horribly why my hybrid list has a mechanized platoon that can grab objectives (often doing this while Al'Rahem's blob distracts the foe) and my all-infantry list has an emergency backup meltagun platoon in case Al'Rahem and platoon meet their maker.

Captain Al'Rahem of Tallarn:  well worth his points (upgrade/astropath) if you use him carefully, have a duplicate objective-grabber unit or set of units, support him, and if you are playing a 2,000 points or higher game. 


Tallarn Commander

IG, "We are many. They are few.""

[legionnaire]

Teir 1- useful almost always, not list dependent, and cost effective
Guardsman Marbo
Knight Commander Pask
Gunnery Sergeant Harker
Sergeant Bastonne
Tier 2- Useful in dedicated squads, can be pricey
Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
Nork Deddog
Castellan Creed
Color Sergent Kell
Mogil Kamir
Tier 3- useful only when large amounts of points/soldiers are dedicated to their service
Captain Al-rahem
Commander Chenkov
Tier 4- can be replaced cheaply with non SC's
Commisar Yarrick

I would have to say i'm not really happy with this i'll go into detail.

tier 1: I would have to drop bastonne down to teir two why i say this is well considering that for most armies he needs a) to be in a vet squad b) they need carapace c) expensive for an order. He doesn't really win or lose a game yet he does make vets become a pretty penny and given how they can become a glass hammer at times i tend to favor harker more.

tier 2: Nork I would drop a tier for what his rules he does look good but he does cost and given cost alone and usefullness in the field i would keep him only for apoc games. Kamir now while he does look good he has one flaw that makes me put him in tier 4. He has the rage special rule which means he has to charge the nearest enemy unit making him rather useless when you need him for counter assault where a crafty oppoent can lead him into a unit of say grots and you lose rough riders best weapons their lances.

tier 3: Now i would bump al'rahem up to tier 2 why because for either a guard or mech list he can become a very useful unit think about and the number of weapons you can flank on an oppoenat can when the game. So i hold him high.

tier 4: Now yarrick  expensive yes but the worse in the codex i would say no. Hence i say in a apoc games he would be one nasty bugger to keep down his rules make him to be one nasty close combat machine him with ogryns or assault platoon near him and he can turn almost any unit into tiny bits. i would say hes more of a tier 3 then 4 not useful in normal games but in apoc i say anything goes.

[Buggus]

Quick combos for each load out.

Creed, astropath, and a mean hard hitting unit to out flank.  Combo this by placing units closer to a side in order to drag either out flank units into them and or units down your flank. That way you can then flank right into the enemy unit.

Straken, astropath. and a few reserve unit for hth.

Krell more less requires heavy weapon squads to take effect of his ability. Personally I would prefer to have a commissar in the area instead. Not of a fan of this guy as he really does not have much to offer.

Yarrik, I have not really used him at all so I guess I should not say anything. 

[zero88]

I would argue against mogul kamir.. reason being is that rage forces him to always be charging at the enemy. This means that your one turn of hunting lances may not be against what you need them for. You arent able to keep them in the back then counter charge the perfect target.. they just kinda ride off and do their own thing and get themselves killed 

[Blindmage]

just a note on Rage, as it's been incorrectly cited a few times already.

Rage does not force you to charge in the assult phase! witha 12" assult i'm sure there'll be more than one unit in range for the rough riders.

[sith_delinquent]

I use Yarrick almost exclusively, and I have had no problems with him. Despite his cost when paired with mounted ogryn's or leading a 30 man blob he is quite effective. Being able to throw out 21 ST6 attacks on a charge is no joke even for terminators, then add 4 PF attacks from Yarrick and you got a squad killing combo. Now keep in mind that the above post are true, he is a specialized unit and unless you are willing to field him with what he needs to thrive you will be wasting points. Rarely does he not pay for his points, with his ability to get back up, he can effectively tie up those nasty close combat units or big bad SM command squads that tend to eat up IG.

[troels j]

"I usually tool his platoon out with a flamer or two, 4-5 meltaguns, a pair of voxes, meltabombs, and power swords and I either take a 26-trooper blob with commie or a 36-trooper blob with commie."

Just a quick question: when you say blob, I guess you mean combined squad - but are you allowed to combine with the PCS as well to get 26 guys in one unit? I thought only inf squads could do that, or has there been an errata I dont know about?

[Stoneless86]

nope on the pcs only infantry squads can combine