Topic: Promethean Dragons [counts-as Legion Of The Damned in a Salamanders army]

[Leocuta]

I think I saw somewhere, that the LotD USED to be Fire Dragons. I may be wrong but I definatly saw that USED to be called something else.

Also:

Here's three more I found (all non-official):

Fighting Tigres.

Promethean Dragons.

Screaming Cobras.

Angels of Deliverence.

[Darsenko]

I think I saw somewhere, that the LotD USED to be Fire Dragons. I may be wrong but I definatly saw that USED to be called something else.

Are you meaning the Fire Hawks? I think I saw on Lexicanum one time that the LotD were the remnants of the Fire Hawks or something like that.

Ah, here we go. They are believed to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter.

[Leocuta]

Yeah, I knew it was Fire 'something' thanks. I couldn't find a link.

[Aislinn]

I love that idea about using Lizardmen bits.  I haven't really looked at them, so I must now.  I have also come up with a few new ideas for the dragons while i was on vacation.  so here we go:  Make special rules for them that allow them to exchange bolters for flamers at an undecided amount of points.  and the only heavy weapons they can take are heavy flamers.  this would make this unit the perfect anti-infantry unit.  which is what i hoped for them.  feed back is welcome so let the comments fly

[Darsenko]

I love that idea about using Lizardmen bits.  I haven't really looked at them, so I must now.  I have also come up with a few new ideas for the dragons while i was on vacation.  so here we go:  Make special rules for them that allow them to exchange bolters for flamers at an undecided amount of points.  and the only heavy weapons they can take are heavy flamers.  this would make this unit the perfect anti-infantry unit.  which is what i hoped for them.  feed back is welcome so let the comments fly

That sounds like a really good idea. Are you going to leave all the anti-tank to your vehicles?

[Markay]

I love that idea about using Lizardmen bits.  I haven't really looked at them, so I must now.  I have also come up with a few new ideas for the dragons while i was on vacation.  so here we go:  Make special rules for them that allow them to exchange bolters for flamers at an undecided amount of points.  and the only heavy weapons they can take are heavy flamers.  this would make this unit the perfect anti-infantry unit.  which is what i hoped for them.  feed back is welcome so let the comments fly

I'm not a fan of that idea, unless it's for a really really high amount of points. Yes it would make them the perfect anti-infantry unit, which is why it's not a great idea. 10 marines firing 10 flamer templates turn after turn is pretty crazy, if you really want flamers you can make something similar with sternguard veterans and combi flamers. Which is codex legal and not quite as strange. If it's only you using these rules then just limit yourself to only the heavy flamer option too.

Also think sternguard are a perfect choice for your LotD models too. Sternguard have a brilliant Elite space marine feel to them and Legion of the damned are pretty weird ghosty men. I'm also thinking that a 3++ save on a whole marine squad is pretty unlikely. The only reason I can see Vulkan having a 3++ save is the fact that he is wearing one of the super duper rare artefacts he's looking for. I wouldn't even assume Tu'Shan has one of those.

[Aislinn]

well see, this idea for a flamer heavy list occurred when I was conversing with one of my comrades.  I was saying what if I made an army that used all/mostly flamers even for the troops?  and he said for a house rule I would let u try it out.  so I am lookin to do that, but first I want to get the first company veterans all straightened out.  I think that a invul save for them may be good, maybe I will change it to a 4++, I only wanted it a three just cause the drake scales give 3++ so if they hunted a drake and took its scales they would have that, and I could model it on them.  however if 4++ sounds better for a non special character then that can happen too.  Also I am a big fan of one unit does one thing  and does it really well, so I like the A-IFT power of flamers/heavy flamers.  other troops may be less specialized but at least this one unit will be: which is why I won't take them in every game.

[Markay]

well see, this idea for a flamer heavy list occurred when I was conversing with one of my comrades.  I was saying what if I made an army that used all/mostly flamers even for the troops?  and he said for a house rule I would let u try it out.  so I am lookin to do that, but first I want to get the first company veterans all straightened out.  I think that a invul save for them may be good, maybe I will change it to a 4++, I only wanted it a three just cause the drake scales give 3++ so if they hunted a drake and took its scales they would have that, and I could model it on them.  however if 4++ sounds better for a non special character then that can happen too.  Also I am a big fan of one unit does one thing  and does it really well, so I like the A-IFT power of flamers/heavy flamers.  other troops may be less specialized but at least this one unit will be: which is why I won't take them in every game.

I understand where you're coming from really do but just wanted to say that a ten man squad armed with flamers is deadly against most infantry units in the game, even a squad of terminators would suffer under 10 templates. I just think sternguard are your perfect unit. Of course I'm not trying to discourage you from making your own unit, but perhaps use sternguard as a base because most of the work has already been done in the codex, you just need to add points values for your cloaks.

Not sure where the idea of drake scale cloaks granting brilliant invulnerable saves comes from apart from Vulkan? The last I've seen was the salamanders mantle in the Armageddon codex which stopped people being instant killed. Perhaps this is a nicer route to go down if you don't want to start paying mega points for an iron halo save. (I'd suggest something that's make them tougher against basic infantry attacks for example. So -1 Str to shooting attacks of Str 4 and under).

[Aislinn]

that does sound intriguing... so maybe enhanced toughness marines?  but better toughness means they can still be killed, by things that ap them.  hmmm, very perplexing.  Well maybe I will still use the Legion models, but have the rules be more like: they can take flamers instead of bolters, and heavy weapons must be heavy flamers.  the sergeant can take a thunder hammer and combat shield maybe?  and all the models have drake scales which makes them toughness 5. 

[Koval, Master Verispex]

Go for Chaos and play Nurgle if you want Toughness 5 Marines. Problem solved. Sounds like you're just trying to formulate an invincible uber unit now because you don't like being given sensible advice (you want flamers, Sternguard get them by the bucket load)

[Aislinn]

as far as I understand it sternguard only get two heavy flamers so that is not a bucket load, and I don't want T5 marines.  I just want a specialized unit that has drake scales and flamey stuff... the comments are telling me that an invul save is not cool for a unit of marines.  I am ok without the invul save but the drake scales have to do something otherwise they are just going to be sternguard, but they are not intended to be sternguard: hence I went through all the trouble to come up with fluff and whatnot for a special unit.  so they should be special, not just an elite unit for a vanilla marine army. 
      so, i guess what i want is advice on making a special unit.  not advice for being a codex marine player and following what is in the books.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

as far as I understand it sternguard only get two heavy flamers so that is not a bucket load

Every model in the unit is entitled to a combi-flamer (boosted by Vulkan if you take him, and really, why wouldn't you?), and incendiary bolter shells that ignore cover. I'd class that as a bucket load of burny stuff.

and I don't want T5 marines

Unless I'm misinterpreting something here, this runs counter to what you said two posts before:

, but have the rules be more like: [...] all the models have drake scales which makes them toughness 5.

So clearly T5 entered into your thought processes somewhere.

I just want a specialized unit that has drake scales and flamey stuff... the comments are telling me that an invul save is not cool for a unit of marines.

I'm practically giving you a unit that has flamey stuff! You're just not seeing it for whatever reason.

And no, the I-save is not cool, because A) it conflicts with your theme B) some Codices have units that ignore I-saves, and considering that the Legion don't have armour saves (by RAW), you're absolutely buggered if you face off against old-style Witch Hunters. Psycannon bolts and Blessed Promethium will completely wreck a Legion unit, and I'm sure you'd find it jarring for a unit of Sallies of all people to be running scared of a big flamer.

I am ok without the invul save

EMPEROR BE PRAISED! Finally.

but the drake scales have to do something

...Uh, look impressive? Distinguish them from other Marines in power armour? Generally showcase their badassery?

otherwise they are just going to be sternguard

This is in no way a bad thing.

but they are not intended to be sternguard: hence I went through all the trouble to come up with fluff and whatnot for a special unit.

Then pray tell, why is it not in the Forge?

so they should be special, not just an elite unit for a vanilla marine army.

Synergy, mate. You play Eldar, you should know what I'm talking about there. Sternguard get loads of flamey stuff. Vulkan makes flamey stuff better. A blinged-out Rhino can get them to the front lines, or indeed a drop pod if you want to preserve the deep strike. See what I'm getting at? 'cos Sallies sure as hell aren't vanilla -- they're more like a mint choc chip. And there are ways to get that across.

so, i guess what i want is advice on making a special unit.  not advice for being a codex marine player and following what is in the books.

From what I gather a good player can devise any number of different themes without leaving the confines of the Codex, and Codex: Space Marines arguably has the most options to play with for creating your own army as you see fit. So this should be much easier than with, say, Dark Eldar, or Orks, both of whom are much more restricted in terms of theme-choices.

[Azash76]

C: SM is allot like the Eldar dex in the fact that they share some of the same limitations. You want to make your Eldar craftworld A eldar you paint them a certain way gear them a certain way give them HQ xyz and now they are eldar of craftworld A not craftworlds B, C, and D. But when you get right down to it a guardian is a guardian is a guardian no matter what color you paint him.

That is the limitation you are running into in C SM. We can paint them blue give them missile launchers and call them Ultramarines, paint them green give them multi-meltas and call them Salamanders, and I don't know what they hell you give them to make them Ravenguard but you get the idea! You fluff them up give them some unique looking bits but a sternguard is a sternguard is a sternguard they all function off the same rules.

On a side note the Chaos SM dex has the same issue as well. In a perfect world we could all have special rules and I wish there was some exchange rule A for rule b or if you chose these guys these weapons cost XX as opposed to YY but during 5th edition in which the codex was written they were all about simplifying things and trying to make everything a 3 page pamphlet instead of proper codexes. I am with ya I want more variety myself more ability to customize and make things truly unique but its like the old saying goes..."if life gives you lemons make lemonade". In this case if life gives you Sternguard paint'em green and call'em Promethian Dragons

[Aislinn]

ok.  I see what you are saying about the sternguard, I really do.  and I know I can be hard to understand with all my contradicting posts.  sorry  
   So here is what I really want: 1) def want to use the Legion models. 2) correct me if I am wrong but aren't combi-flamers one time use flamers?  that seems pretty crappy and I would rather take a standard bolter. 3) I like the sternguard and I respect them as an elite unit, but I really don't want to make a sternguard unit.  or I would skip all of the extra crap and time wasted on buying cool models and modelling drake scales and just buy standard codex elites like every other marine player I know.  4) I want my salamanders to stand apart from all the other salamander players I know by taking the time to construct my own elite unit that fits better with the fluff in my opinion. which constitutes to a unit that could take all flamers if they want, or not.  that is all.  and I want the drake scales to have a purpose.  I am talking about real dragon scales here... not some lizard scales. i mean the kind of dragon that even space marines would have a hard time lifting.  something with that tough of skin would have to do something when added on to armour. 

[Unleash Mayhem]

Combi-flamers are bolters with all the sternguard special ammo (inculding dragonfire bolts) plus a one-shot flamer and with vulcan a single twinlinked shot is great for 5pts.

Legion can only get one heavy flamer, sternguard can get two, and everyone else can take a flamer if thats what you want. Most Salamanders have drake cloaks of somekind, at least the elite ones like termies and sternguard (Basically the entire first company) and some sergeants.

[Markay]

2) correct me if I am wrong but aren't combi-flamers one time use flamers?  that seems pretty crappy and I would rather take a standard bolter.

One use flamers plus special ammunition. The good thing about this is that they are cheap, they still allow you to shoot at range and deal with various enemies. Also, how many times do you expect to fire your flamers and do you expect to fire all of them at once? Once per game isn't so bad because if you have a whole unit you could ration the shots out (if you think you're likely to be flaming twice). So 4 of them shoot the first time + 2 heavy flamers. Then the other 4 shoot second time + 2 heavy flamers.

Don't forget there are plenty of reasons why you wont be able to fire your flamers anyway, an opponent with half a brain wont let you flame him turn after turn. You'll need to get in range, place all of your models in good positions to fire (pretty difficult out of a rhino...), not get bogged down into combat.

3) I like the sternguard and I respect them as an elite unit, but I really don't want to make a sternguard unit.  or I would skip all of the extra crap and time wasted on buying cool models and modelling drake scales and just buy standard codex elites like every other marine player I know.

What you are saying here is that you want to be able to do unfluffy things because you're spending loads of time converting the models. I'm converting some honour guard with cloaks because it makes sense for the most elite veterans in my salamanders army to have cloaks and artificer armour. Doesn't mean they should all get invulnerable saves.

4) I want my salamanders to stand apart from all the other salamander players I know by taking the time to construct my own elite unit that fits better with the fluff in my opinion. which constitutes to a unit that could take all flamers if they want, or not.  that is all.  and I want the drake scales to have a purpose.  I am talking about real dragon scales here... not some lizard scales. i mean the kind of dragon that even space marines would have a hard time lifting.  something with that tough of skin would have to do something when added on to armour. 

I think the main problem is that most people won't share your opinion that this is fluffy. A unit of ten salamander veterans all wielding flamers and with super duper cloaks is unheard of. They are at heart a codex astartes chapter and follow most of the same basic rules in organisation at a squad and company level. Just with variances, they don't use certain units as much but they lean towards certain types of weapon more, but within usual squad organisation.

I'm not sure why you think sternguard are such a bad choice really, how often do you see a squad of ten sternguard all with flamers and converted up with cool scaled cloaks? I haven't seen any so far (though I'm now tempted myself). If you really want to beef up the unit then use a librarian as a HQ, take the avenger for more flame goodness. Then take force dome to allow your librarian to 'fortify the once living scale cloaks with warp energy' or some such thing.

[Aislinn]

about the whole invul save thing.  it doesn't have to be an invul saave.  it could be +1 to the armour save, or allow failed armour saves.  As far as Sternguard go, i like them and i may use them as well.  but this unit isn't going to be a sternguard unit: hence why i didn't name this post Cool-Looking Sternguard.

    And about the flamer thing:  i said they have the option to take all flamers, which translates to me as any model can upgrade to a flamer for like 5 points or something.  and if i wanted to take all flamers: i do know the consequences and if they get into combat they are marines in the end and will take out a few guys.  plus whatever they shoot at I will charge cause they are assault weapons.

    So, the main question I have is:  should I just drop this idea and try to work out a new one?  or should I just keep the idea but revamp it?

[Wiggus]

Another thing to look at here is if you are making a set of custom rules which it would appear you are several things matter
1. You can only play with people who consent.
2. You need to actually balance the unit and the ability to have 10 flamers for 50 pts is not balanced at all.
3. Everyone having an actual drakescale cloak is frankly as unfluffy as you can get as they are supposed to be nigh on impossible to kill and as such brother captains and chapter masters pretty much being the only people to manage it hence thier suitability to lead.
If you are looking to create a set of custom rules there perhaps you need to move this idea to the forge.
If you looking at genuine advice on how to model this people within the exhisting rule set then keep it here and spitball some ideas.

[Aislinn]

I know it seems unfluffy for a squad to have drake scales, and that seems reasonable.  however, i am saying:  what if this one squad worked as a unit to take one down and then they all took the scales from this one drake?  that seems reasonable to me. 
   The thing I am really trying to get tho is help with the details of the dragons.  I feel like people are trying to sway me toward the sternguard instead.  which is fine, cause I may get them now.  However, even if I do get sternguard I want to include a more special unit that looks, plays and, and is different.  this is what I want:  a unit that is more flamey and more specialized than sternguard, and that has more fluffiness than them also.  so flamers scales and other special rules are needed.  I like the sternguard but I also want to include something else, and that is all I am trying to say.  I don't want one over the other, I just want two distinguish the two units.  and make a special unit with a special name and different rules.

[Azash76]

I don't think you understand why people keep pushing the sternguard.

There is nothing else that can be geared out as flamey as the sternguard using the rules of the codex. So without creating special rules there is no way to help you out there.

That being said I just had an idea for modeling some units that would fit your bill and use the existing rules of the codex. Just a warning though they woudl be expensive as hell to make cause they would be completely kit bashed.

Bikers! If my memory serves me correctly and I don't have my codex with me to verify this (having dinner at work...hurray for working late) you can give dam near every rider a flamer. The bikes boost there toughness up to T5 instead of the base of T4. If you put your captain on a bike then they count as troop choices if you take them in units of 5. Also this makes the troop choices more expensive and a little more rare giving them that elite feel even though they would be occupying a standard troop choice slot in your army.

So if you use some Dark Elf cold one models or maybe there are lizardman mounts you could use. Not really sure and just pulling this off the top of my head so bear with me. You use the Cold one mount models as a play as for the bike models. You fluffy up your space marines with drak scale cloaks and such and give them flamers.

Now you have a unit that operates within the confines of the codex looks and feels truly unique and amazing and eveyrthing makes sense. They all have flamers (not to mention twin linked bolters) and it's not the lizards they are riding that give them the T5 you just say it's the cloaks that make them tougher so they are T5. Your standard tactical squad joe space marine well he doesn't have a lizard mount or a cloak so he wouldnt be T5.

It's an idea. Heck you could even tweak around with a storm bolter piece or customize some bolters and arm them with them to reporesent the normally twin-linked bolters found on the bikes. It would make them again feel more salamandery as you could say they get to carry TL bolters cause they hand craft them cause they are uber weapon smiths and such.