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Author Topic: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested  (Read 3116 times)

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Offline azore24

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1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« on: March 12, 2008, 08:19:37 PM »
So, for the third or fourth time I have a tournament scheduled (this time on March 21).

It will be 1500 points, locked lists.  You may have seen ChaosSlavin, he is my enemy (one of three chaos players in the tourney).  There are also Black Templars, Guard, Fish of Fury and Gunline Tau, and another Eldar player.  Maybe Inquisition if the other Eldar doesn't show, and a very slim chance of Necrons (0-1 Monoliths based on what he owns).



Farseer Oulan   Doom, Spirit stones, Fortune, Bike, Runes of Warding, spear - 178
Avatar

10xDA       Exarch   Simmer-shield, PW, Bladestorm, defend - 177
2x5 Pathfinders - 240


10x Scorps Exarch   Stalker, Shadowstrike, Biting blade - 202
8xHarlies    Shadowseer, Master (might go kiss or powersword on him, I'm not sure yet), Kisses (all), 1xfusion pistol- 242

4xSpears    Exarch   Starlance, Withdraw, Skilled Rider - 202

2xVibro cannons - 100

Total - 1496

The theme of my army is high saturation of dice.  Lots of dice.  My Craftworld is skilled at cleansing Maiden Worlds of vile Mon-Keigh (Not just human Mon-Keigh) and establishing control zones.  Much of my fluff is scattered, and being compiled but the Craftworld is small and relies on its colony of Eaxamath Mure to supply both provisions and fighters (Pathfinders).  The Craftworld also has a long history with the Harlequins, having been stuck in the Webway for mellenia.

If you all wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate tactical analysis as well as a critique.  More fluff is being generated as I can.  Most of the Scorpions have individual names, now buried in the RP board...

As always, your insight is welcome and appreciated.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 09:39:54 PM by azore24 »
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Offline GoofyCommy

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 10:58:21 AM »
All of your units except the DAs have the possibility of taking down tanks.  Many of your units can deal with Monstrous Creatures. You seem to be weak against horde armies, but it doesn't look like you'll be playing against any.  I assume you'll be fortuning your farseer + shining spears every turn?

Any ideas what you'll be dooming? You do have a lot of choices, but I just noticed that everything you'll be hitting with will hit on a 4+ vs marines, so it ups the % of hits to 75%.

Why the bitting blade on the Scorpion exarch?  Have you had good results from the past with it?  I've never tried it.

Offline azore24

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 08:28:03 PM »
The blade is more for fluff, that particular exarch weilds his ancient blade, (to be named).  I also feel that generally, I can get a higher number of higher strength hits with it.  It also fits with my theme of wieght of attacks well.  Doom will normally be used in conjunction with either a charge of a hard unit (HQ, MC, etc...) or to aid the Bladestorm in taking down a full unit.

Do you really think I'm weak against horde?  That would ruin my fluffyness!  I have two 40+ attacks on the charge with two units, a Bladestorming unit, four pinning units (two of which can affect multiple targets at once), and a fearless bubble.

For clarification, the Vibros are in separate units.
Unsophisticated players might think that the Letter of the rules is more important than the Spirit - but the Letter isn't liable to sneak up behind you with an axe if you abuse it.
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Offline GoofyCommy

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 11:19:45 AM »
 When I thing strong against hordes, I think of lots of shots at a range. You do not have a lot of shots at long range.  You have a lot of shots at 18".  Pinning does not work on horde armies like Tyranids and Orks.  Tyranids are fearless and Orks use their squad number as their leadership value for pinning tests. 

 As I mentioned above, you're army will not be facing tyranids or orks, the only swarm type you'll meet are imperial.  Yes, you have two 40+ attacks on the charge, if you can get all models in base contact, but then you'll be left out in the open against the guard next turn.  Unless you consolidate into another squad that is.

  I do believe you'll do well, but I've never tried an army like this.  Play it a few times before the tournament to get your tactics down.

Offline moc065

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2008, 02:42:08 PM »
Just a note on tactics... as I think the list is decent although not personnally my style.

When you set-up your (Singular) Vibros, make sure that you consider where you enemy is going, so that you don't limit your shooting due to your othe runits movement in the game. It would be a shame to have your Vibros's idle due to an opponents Good Placement, and movement.

I also see your army being almost an all out failure if your enemy simply avoids your CC. or quels your faster, or longer ranged stuff early on. If the other Eldar player or the Tau guy have very Fast, shooty armies they could give you some serious problems. Just something to consider when your setting-up though, as you have enough stuff that can "Limit" the table on them, just make sure you use it.

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Offline azore24

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2008, 03:25:46 PM »
When I thing strong against hordes, I think of lots of shots at a range. You do not have a lot of shots at long range.  You have a lot of shots at 18".
Hmm, difference of opinion, I guess.  I figure that I will have to get close sooner or later, and I always want to try and dictate the game with my small but intense kill zones.

Quote
Yes, you have two 40+ attacks on the charge, if you can get all models in base contact, but then you'll be left out in the open against the guard next turn.  Unless you consolidate into another squad that is.
Hmm, I thought anyone in 2" of BtB gets all attacks.  If my group is playing it wrong, can you point me to a page number?

Quote
  I do believe you'll do well, but I've never tried an army like this.  Play it a few times before the tournament to get your tactics down.

Too bad the tourney is the only time in the near future as I have no local LGS's.  I guess its up to theoryhammer and mathammer to practice.


When you set-up your (Singular) Vibros, make sure that you consider where you enemy is going, so that you don't limit your shooting due to your othe runits movement in the game. It would be a shame to have your Vibros's idle due to an opponents Good Placement, and movement. [/color=red]
I was planning on having the vibros flanking, reacting with the second one to my opponant's HS deployment.  I hope to force my opponant into the middle, where the vibros have a good angle and my troops can advance behind cover.


Quote

I also see your army being almost an all out failure if your enemy simply avoids your CC. or quels your faster, or longer ranged stuff early on. If the other Eldar player or the Tau guy have very Fast, shooty armies they could give you some serious problems. Just something to consider when your setting-up though, as you have enough stuff that can "Limit" the table on them, just make sure you use it.

CaHG


Hmmm, I see what you're saying but how would I fix it.  I have no more jetbikes, only one falcon (which is unfluffy for me), a small squad of hawks, and various infantry.  I also don't know what I would switch.

Thank you, and if you get a chance I am asking for critiques.
Unsophisticated players might think that the Letter of the rules is more important than the Spirit - but the Letter isn't liable to sneak up behind you with an axe if you abuse it.
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Offline ChoasSlavin

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2008, 02:14:48 PM »
i think you'll do just fine azore24.  with my army, its more a CC oriented army so that battle is gonna be fun.  40 attacks agaisnt my 35? from 8 raptors and 1 with dual LCs.  muy divertimos. ;D 

just wondering, what is your initiative for most of your eldar?  mine is 4.

i have a post on the chaos board so u can see my army list also.  just want a fair game. 

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2008, 10:06:29 PM »
Since you asked for a critique, I'll give you my two cents. Your army list will be critiqued as foolows:

Quote
1-Background    Some info about the army, enemy, theatre and strategy
2-Composition   Weighted distribution amongst FOC slots
3-Utility            Units are suited to their task/not overupgraded
4-Flexibility        Army shows variety and units are versatile
5-Ingenuity       Strategies, Combos and backup plans have been considered

Each of the above five areas can earn up to 1 point each, for a maximum score of five. A score of 3 indicates a solid list, with scores of 4 or higher being very good.

Each section receives one of the following scores:
0.0: Little thought given to addressing this area
0.5: Moderate thought given to addressing this area
1.0: Thorough thought given to addressing this area

Background: .5
There is some minimal description of craftworld background, along with a pretty good account of the enemies you anticipate facing. There is also some description of the strategic concept of your army. This area could do with a bit more information explaining why you have built the list as you have; there is some justification for the selections based on fluff but without much of that fluff actually present. More sense could be made of these preferences if the reasons for these preferences were clearly spelled out. The more others know about your army, the more they can benefit from reading about it.
 
Composition: 1
Your units are chosen from across the full FOC. You have chosen a diverse selection of units with only one duplicate. Both of these factors will help to limit the specific vulnerabilities of your army, so that no one unit will eat through all of yours. While you have a decided emphasis on close combat, you have some decent fore support, and you have units that can deal with a number of different enemy threats. Only one non-scoring unit. A pretty good job of building a balanced force.
 
Utility: .5
HQ: An Avatar, who is as economical as he can be, and a Farseer with a selection of powers and equipment geared to supporting your army in shooting and assault. While it is a fair amount spent on this farseer, none of his upgrades seem superfluous, so you might as well go for it.
 
Elites: A big squad of scorpions geared to fighting lightly armored foes coupled with a squad of harlies who will go for the more armored, less numerous foes. Both units are not as streamlined as they could be; the scorps have a lot of upgrades tied into an Exarch which might not be necessary given their role and the Harlequins are spending some unnecessary points as well [do you anticipate all those harlies will live long enough to make use of the kisses? Is the troupe master a necessity? Are you really going to need the fusion gun when you have rending?]
 
Troops: Pathfinders are nice and light, but the Avengers have three fairly expensive pieces of kit where perhaps one would suffice. Perhaps taking on more than they ought to.
 
Fast Attack: A unit of spears given what they need to fight enemy wherever they appear. A solid unit.
 
Heavy Support: Two vibrocannons in one unit. If fielded for anti-armor duty, two separate units would be much better, and increase scoring unit count as well as assist the deployment meta-game. Something to consider.
 
Lightening some units here or there could easily grab you ten more Avengers, or a supporting jetbike team, or a number of other good options. Something you may want to consider.
 
Flexibility: 1
It seems in some ways that this is what you were reaching for in your unit selections. The scorpion upgrades allow them to perform a couple roles and be a solid anchor to your main force or provide support to the pathfinders. The spears have a starlance, increasing their capacity for AT and monster-hunting duties. The vibros being twinned makes them a bit better at hunting infantry as well as tanks. Your Avengers should be decent at shooting and assault, and the farseer performs a number of roles in your army on his own. Most of your units [the noted exception is Avengers] can handle a wide variety of threats with ease.
 
Ingenuity: 0
What is lacking in this army list is a solid account of why each unit has been selected, what their primary function will be, and some description of your general strategy with perhaps some alternative battle plans. Developing this area further would do you a world of good, especially going into a tournament. Considering some of your units outside of their primary roles, and how you may want them to work together in different combinations, will let you understand more fully where your potential weaknesses may lie. I'd like to see you develop this further.
 
Summary: 2.5
While you've given your units the capacity to tackle a number of threats and have built a pretty balanced force, you have precious little room for error and have not given an adequate account of how this army is to be used. Additionally, mentioning that you have some background material but not giving a description of anything that may require you to select certain configurations [even if not optimal] makes it difficult to offer advice [for example, your Scorpion exarch, which you explain in a later post]. A good start to approaching a tournament, but could be taken a little further.

Offline moc065

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 07:31:46 AM »
Farseer Oulan   Doom, Spirit stones, Fortune, Bike, Runes of Warding, spear - 178
Avatar

10xDA       Exarch   Simmer-shield, PW, Bladestorm, defend - 177
2x5 Pathfinders - 240

10x Scorps Exarch   Stalker, Shadowstrike, Biting blade - 202
8xHarlies    Shadowseer, Master (might go kiss or powersword on him, I'm not sure yet), Kisses (all), 1xfusion pistol- 242

4xSpears    Exarch   Starlance, Withdraw, Skilled Rider - 202

2xVibro cannons - 100

Total - 1496


moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential: 5/9 units have anti-tank and there is little potential of support form elsewhere, so overall this is; Below Average (.5)
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: There is a decent amount of dedicated Anti-MEQ and some combo's are good although the ranged aspect is alittle lacking, so overall; Above Average (.7)
3.. Anti-Horde potential: There is a decent amount of mid range firepower as well as the Close Combat punch and the Vibro's so overall; Good (.8 )
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: Not much in teh way of Long Range but a good mix of mid ranged diversity that overall is; Above Average (.7)
5.. Assault potential: With 3 very dedicated Assault units and plenty of assistin the way of shooting and such, I think this part is pretty well covered; Very Good (.9)
6.. Scoring Units / point level: 8 Scoring units are 1500 pts is right around average; maybe a little; Above Average (.7 )
7.. Durability or Resilience: There is actually quite a lot of resilience that could be utilized, so overall; Good (.8 )
8.. Flexability: I do see a few ways to tweek this for more flexability; but there are already a number of good untis that can work differently in alternate situations, so overall; Good (.8 )
9.. Mission Capabiliy: I don't see to mny missions that would hamstring it, so overall; Good (.8 )
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: Its deffinately not Run of the Mill, and although I don't see a total overall theme or Synergy, I do see plenty of small combo's and the mentioned Saturation of Dice Potential that the user mentioned (although I also see ways to exploit this even more), so overall; Above Average (.7)

Rating = 7.4/10 Others may rate it differently and the users tactics could certainly make a difference overall; but thats how I see it as is and without any further explaination from the user.

CaHG
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 02:09:52 PM by moc065 »
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Offline azore24

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 10:46:25 PM »
OK, for some fluff.

Ath-Ron is a small Craftworld, with only a few thousand living on it at any one time.  Just prior to the fall, Ath-Ron used its small size to escape into the Webway, to areas too small for other ships to pose it any threat.  Unfortunately, the tunnel that the Craftworld was in collapsed around it.  The engineers of Ath-Ron were able to construct a support structure quickly, though and held back the walls just enough to save the Craftworld.  For millennia the ship lay pinned in the Webway, sending out scout ships to find help from other Eldar.  Eventually, HARLEQUINS arrived and over the course of two thousand years the section of Webway surrounding Ath-ROn was repaired and the city-ship set free.

Upon its return to normal space, Ath-Ron set sail for its next original port of call to see what could be salvaged.  When the first scouts arrived at the planet, they reported a colonization of humans.  An ambassador was sent to find a peaceful means of coexistence as the Homo sapiens only had established control of one of the world's landmasses.  The offer was flatly refused and the Planetary Defense Force initiated war on the looming fleet.  Space superiority was quickly established by the Eldar and a land force was established to clear the continent of Mon-Keigh.

The initial wave was an utter failure with nearly 40% of the warriors falling in combat to the defenders.  The second wave was much better organized and had more accurate information as to the enemy's abilities and weaknesses.  Suppression forces and snipers crowded the humans into close groupings while strike forces moved in and eliminated the Mon-Keigh herds.  The beachhead having been established allowed large warmachines to be built that surpassed anything that was brought to bear by the PDF.  The planet was quickly claimed by the Eldar of Ath-Ron, though over 450 had been lost in the first hour of combat alone.

The structures of the Mon-Keigh were demolished and an infinity circuit was started from the souls of the fallen warriors.  This world became known as Eaxamath Mure ("Forgotten Death").  It now houses a population of 50,000 Eldar and growing.  Ath-Ron has conquered two other colonies and is now actively warring on another world to get its fourth and largest colony.

Because of its isolation, Ath-Ron never developed a strict warrior path as is found on other Craftworlds.  This leads to a lack of Aspect Warriors, though Ath-Ron has its own military and all of the vehicles of the Eldar available, though they are rarely used in field combat as they are better suited to the defense of the colonies.


Farseer (Yeah, I know that Farseers technically didn't exist pre-fall but I assume that there were powerful psychers and this particular one has runes) Oulan   Doom, Spirit stones, Fortune, Bike, Runes of Warding, spear - 178
Avatar (Solitaire, battlesuit, any ideas?)

10x Guardian Suppressors with commander       (DA with Exarch   Simmer-shield, PW, Bladestorm, defend - 177
2x5 Sniper team          (Pathfinders - 240)


10x Strike Force Operatives          (Scorps Exarch   Stalker, Shadowstrike, Biting blade - 202)
I like these as they are, they will infiltrate with the pathfinders, or if infiltration is not allowed they can escort the Avatar in a block of assaulty death.

8xHarlies    Shadowseer, Master (might go kiss or powersword on him, I'm not sure yet), Kisses (all), 1xfusion pistol- 242 I can probably get rid of the Master and the pistol, I never really needed them... thats 26 more points (I do like to have all kisses, just in case they all make it so that the Harlies and Scorps have different functions.  Otherwise, two Scorp units are cheaper and have very similar effects.)

4x Reactionary Strike Force         (Spears    Exarch   Starlance, Withdraw, Skilled Rider - 202) No change here, they are solid and have been for me.

2xVibro cannons - 100
Depending on the mission, these will be two squads or one, normally two squad, though.

Total - 1496

So, that's another few points that I don't know where to spend.  I suppose I could get one more Pathfinder.  I am thinking of changing the DA exarch to a diresword and pistol.  For the extra two shuriken shots and because once I get the plastic squad box I want to go with the Diresword and then add mutations to it to represent those that it felled in battle (spikes, hilt, whatever flare looks like it came from an enemy hero).

I am still fluf-writing, I know it doesn't count if it isn't written here for critique, but eventually it will be...



The theme of my army is high saturation of dice.  Lots of dice.  My Craftworld is skilled at cleansing Maiden Worlds of vile Mon-Keigh (Not just human Mon-Keigh) and establishing control zones.  Much of my fluff is scattered, and being compiled but the Craftworld is small and relies on its colony of Eaxamath Mure to supply both provisions and fighters (Pathfinders).  The Craftworld also has a long history with the Harlequins, having been stuck in the Webway for millennia.



If anyone has any ideas as to how I can fit the Avatar fluffily (I'm thinking some sort of Harlequin thing, a solitarie, maybe?) please let me know.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 07:50:29 PM by azore24 »
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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2008, 11:32:10 AM »
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Offline azore24

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Re: 1500 point list, critique and tactical analysis requested
« Reply #11 on: April 8, 2008, 09:20:53 PM »
OK, the tournament was reschedualed for April 22 and for once, this really seems like it will actually be happening.  So instead of another thread, I figured as this still needs one critique I could re-open it for all comments, and include some strategy as well as the fluff in the green words above ::)

Farseer Oulan   Doom, Spirit stones, Fortune, Bike, Runes of Warding, spear - 178
Avatar

10xDA       Exarch   Simmer-shield, PW, Bladestorm, defend - 177
2x5 Pathfinders - 240


10x Scorps Exarch   Stalker, Shadowstrike, Biting blade - 202
8xHarlies    Shadowseer, Master (might go kiss or powersword on him, I'm not sure yet), Kisses (all), 1xfusion pistol- 242

4xSpears    Exarch   Starlance, Withdraw, Skilled Rider - 202

2xVibro cannons - 100

Total - 1496

OK, here's the general plan:

Static: Vibros take corners to maximze board control. (they are separate squads) In alpha the pathfinders will set up with the vibros (behind them, obviously) or in the center to control the firing lanes.  In infiltration-allowing missions, the Pathfinders and Scorps will set up together to support one-another.

Fast: Farseer and Spears will hunt in order: indirect fire (whirlwind, defiler, etc...), big HQ units (Emperor's Champion, Hive Tyrant, etc...), Terminator eq (including MCs), anything else I think I can safely kill while staying in combat/withdrawing behind cover.

Footsloggers: Use the Avatar bubble to advance behind cover, with the harlies in the front followed by DA and then the Avatar (based on rate of movement).  These will be joined by the Scorps in non-infiltrating games.

Mostly I plan on trying to control my opponant and then decimate whatever I attack (thus all HKisses, lots o' attacks, etc)

So, in conclusion, I have (IMO) a decent list with a general plan.  My question (besides wanting a good tactical, fluffy, and insightful bout of C+C from anyone who reads this) is what can I do to finish up my points.  I really don't think that the Great Harlequin or fusion pistol are necessary.  What can I do with these points?  That could get me one more harlequin, but what else could I do with it?
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