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Author Topic: Eldar in 6th Edition  (Read 57428 times)

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Offline Lazarus

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #40 on: July 1, 2012, 11:46:38 AM »
Yeah, I will give them a try but am not super optomistic about how they will do based on the games I've seen so far.
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Offline mpopa

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #41 on: July 1, 2012, 11:56:15 AM »
Im trying a eldar and dark eldar combo were, by replacing my 20 guardians i have kalabite warriers with blasters and 2 spinter rifles, hq being Succubus replacing yriel, and for elites ill have icubis, with demiknifes that are able to at least kill termies easier. Ill see how this work. This also opens options of having two 5 man squads of DAs running around in venom with. Splinter connon = lots of anti infantry.  For heavy, i see wraithlords being a must now, 3, since they cant be glance/pen, so they act as anti-tank. Finally carry haywire anywhere were i can.
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Offline Aoitora

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #42 on: July 1, 2012, 12:02:27 PM »
I'll restate my initial impressions as the AP nerf isn't the only issue.

Banshees
Pro: Challenges (Exarchs go Sergeant head hunting) CC wound allocation may prevent retaliatory attacks?
Cons: Overwatch, fleet nerf, random charge range, disordered charge, power weapon nerf, cover generally lower, shooting wound allocation

Nesbit pointed out the other thing that's a major concern, how are you getting them into the battle?

Depending on the unit you assault, overwatch can be a massive hit. Take lootas for example, if you assault 10 of these guys who happen to roll max for their shooting and roll average will kill 5 banshees before assault, due to shooting wound allocation this may mean you're now out of charge range.

What I mean with fleet nerf is this under 5th your charge range on average was 15.5", now it is13" - Honestly I don't know how to calculate the re-roll for Fleet under 6th rules (so assuming you reroll both and hit 7 again, if someone can enlighten me please do) but I do believe you want to reroll 1,2,3 at all times as this gives you the best chance (66%) of rolling equal or higher.

I think Harlequins is where it'll be at, even with the VoT nerf.

Offline Erand

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #43 on: July 1, 2012, 12:06:45 PM »
Personally I haven't taken banshees since ulthwe strike force as even when you could assult from transports you had to be sat in your wave serpent for a turn in front of what you wanted to charge anyway, giving the enemy unit time to move away, or time to shoot at your transport. Now you just deploy the unit and hide behind the transport for a turn, not a huge difference. We should also start to see people using other units like warp spiders to distract enemy units while your combat units make their way up the battle field.

GW are steadily moving away from forces that could deliver a unit or even a whole army untouched to the enemy's front door. No more rhino rush, no more charging from reserve by any means unless you are vanguard veterans. So now you have to use your own tactics and the army as a whole rather than units in isolation. The game isn't 5 terminators vs 10 banshees so it shouldn't be played that way.

Eldar cc is good on the counter charge and I think that is the way we are going to have to use it. We will have to rethink that against armies that can outshoot us like tau but then if you do make it into combat you will ruin them.

Don't forget thes rules work for you opponent too, you get a chance to overwatch his ork boys or his nid warriors, his grey knights don't get to charge from their rhino and if he/she wants to take a land raider with 5 terminators in it and spend a 1/3rd of his points on it you can be damn sure I'm either going to ignor it and keep my army as far away as possible or it is going to be the first thing to die.

I'm really interested to see how people cope with not being able to sit their troops in transports to claim objectives, it isn't something I have ever done so will be really nice to see people thinking ahead again in terms of getting troops down before the end of the game.

I think Harlequins is where it'll be at, even with the VoT nerf.

Nerf in some ways, not in others. Before if someone got inside you VoT range you were gone, this wasn't impossible to do by any means. Now at least you have that cover save no matter the range. Again I think this makes you use them as part of the whole army rather than a unit out on their own.

Offline nesbitt_bub1

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #44 on: July 1, 2012, 12:16:16 PM »
Quote
I think Harlequins is where it'll be at, even with the VoT nerf.

Am i missing something here. VOT works as originally intended. It is not night fighting. You always have to roll and the Unit gains no benefit from rules such as night fighting because of it.

RAW.

Roll to spot, If you can't spot them you loose that units shooting.

You do not benefit from night fighting as this is not the night fighting USR, Nor does it confer the bonuses of night fighting to your unit.

You can in effect not spot them as the unit is assaulting... you have be be lucky for the roll to go that way but it can happen. Also night vision USR does not negate this roll.



I am missing something FAQ Page 2.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 12:20:10 PM by nesbitt_bub1 »

Offline Aoitora

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #45 on: July 1, 2012, 12:19:11 PM »
pg 2 of the new FAQ. VoT gives Stealth and Shrouded. No more not being able to see them.

Offline Brutoni

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #46 on: July 1, 2012, 12:20:34 PM »
I'll restate my initial impressions as the AP nerf isn't the only issue.
What I mean with fleet nerf is this under 5th your charge range on average was 15.5", now it is13" - Honestly I don't know how to calculate the re-roll for Fleet under 6th rules (so assuming you reroll both and hit 7 again, if someone can enlighten me please do) but I do believe you want to reroll 1,2,3 at all times as this gives you the best chance (66%) of rolling equal or higher.

Don't have time to calculate the exact percentages at the moment however Fleet did not get nerfed in ANY way. Fleet was made considerably stronger. See the rulebook to see how it works. I'd be very surprised to see units with fleet not managing a 9" charge range consistently although it would be interesting to calculate the exact precentages.

[mod]Edited for copyright - Iris.[/mod]
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 03:31:14 PM by Irisado »

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #47 on: July 1, 2012, 12:24:52 PM »
Yes, fleet is good. It is the other stuff that is the issue.

Seer Council still wrecks infantry pretty well but takes a considerable nerf vs. vehivles (AV). I'm really not sure what my go to CC unit will be now.....shining spears look good with skilled rider due the jink improvement....
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Offline nesbitt_bub1

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #48 on: July 1, 2012, 12:33:17 PM »
Quote
Don't have time to calculate the exact percentages at the moment however Fleet did not get nerfed in ANY way. Fleet was made considerably stronger. The ability to re-roll 1 dice, 2 dice or no dice and keep the highest number if you wish makes Fleet exceptionally powerful. I'd be very surprised to see units with fleet not managing a 9" charge range consistently although it would be interesting to calculate the exact precentages.

You lost a guaranteed movement for open terrain.

And you lost the old fifth edition system.

Basically now the unit will always average 7. Since that is average for 2d6.

5+6 should be left on all rolls, re-roll anything lower. This will at least account for a 6" guaranteed charge.

2 low roll are a pain tho, 6" or less on 2d6 should be re-rolled unless it is enough, on both dice.

More than 7" should be left.

Every unit lost range because of the change.

7" was always guaranteed in 5th. now it's a nice average roll. Anything less than 7" your missing out.

before there was a 1/6 chance of going 12" 20% on the charge now that's reduced to a 1/36 chance 3%.

[mod]Edited for copyright (please remember that quoting fifth edition rules is as much against the forum rules as quoting sixth edition rules) - Iris[/mod]
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 03:37:34 PM by Irisado »

Offline Erand

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #49 on: July 1, 2012, 12:42:26 PM »
We can't theory craft based on 7" being the average roll on 2D6 if fleet gives you the ability to re-roll those dice giving you a higher chance of getting more than 7". I have no idea how to do that maths (awaits clever people). Secondly it is possible to get significantly further for units that did not have fleet prior to the change so it isn't true to say that every unit lost out. I think we might see scorpion units making a good return, with a better save and the ability to take move through cover they should work really well.

Yes random charge range will make people think twice about how they line up their charges but at least you will know the distance and know what your odds are of making it (roughly, lol). Again, it is going to make using units in isolation alot riskier and will reward those who set up attacks on multiple fronts.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #50 on: July 1, 2012, 12:55:38 PM »
In the game I played in vs. DE and all the games I watched, there was only a single combat where the unit failed to get the charge range. More noticable, was there were far less units even in range to make the charge to begin with as they were being shot to death. lol


Divination power list is where it's at for Eldar. The default power is very good and none of them require more than 1 warp charge. I'm gonig to run a dual Seer list this week and see how it works.
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Offline nesbitt_bub1

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #51 on: July 1, 2012, 12:59:49 PM »
Quote
Yes random charge range will make people think twice about how they line up their charges but at least you will know the distance and know what your odds are of making it (roughly, lol). Again, it is going to make using units in isolation alot riskier and will reward those who set up attacks on multiple fronts.

I have a feeling it's going to do more than make people think twice about charging.

Armies are going to become very standoff-ish, becoming a game of big guns and glancing guns. With a meat shield.

Take this for example.

6 leman russ.
3 basilisk
and as many platoons of men with as many heavy weapon teams as possible to fill the points.
Aegis defence line.

The line is placed in a line in front of the troops. The leman russ protect the basilisk and stay at 4" apart.

Flyer wise the aegis line can take the quad gun, and the heavy weapons teams can take multishot weapons able to glance AV12.

Troop wise if you footslog at it the russes and basilisks are going to eat your face,
Shooting at it the troops have a 2++ cover save, and the tanks are spread enough to spread glancing hits. Penetratings are still problematic.
You cannot get close enough to assault, and if you did you would be assaulting through terrain and be overwatched.
You cannot deepstrike in the formation as it's too tightly pack for your unit to land.


The solution.... you play 3rd ed. And do exactly the same tactic. With no one willing to give up ground the game becomes a game of lasting out. With a last turn grab for objectives. neither tactical nor fun to play.

This is my only fear for this ruleset. As i cannot in my head come up with a logical counter tactic, without been dangerously overextended. Reliant on luck. Or using non eldar models like the aegis landing platform to increase my own chance of survival. All of which are option i would not be willing to take with eldar.

The only way to beat that is to sneak wins with guardian jetbikes objective grabbing 5th turn and cheating a victory.


There is some sadistic bastard guard player leaping with joy writing this list out as i speak....
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 01:23:17 PM by nesbitt_bub1 »

Offline Aoitora

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #52 on: July 1, 2012, 01:09:30 PM »
Damnit I lost what I just posted.
The mean of 1d6 is 3.5 thus your charge range could be considered 6" move, 3.5" fleet, 6" assault = 15.5"
Under the new system you will need to roll at least a 10 - substantially higher than the average of 2d6 (16.65% chance of being rolled) to be beneficial 6" move 10" assault = 16"

In open terrain you were guaranteed to go 13", now you are guaranteed 8"

Also as Nesbitt said, previously you had 1/6 chance of maximum assault range, now it's down to 1/36

This is great for units that don't have fleet as they just gained an average of 1" and it is a slap in the face to units that did have fleet.

Onto the witchblade I am really sore about this - my fluff bunny is crying. It's an iconic weapon that has been 3x str for some time. Look at the shuriken catapult, it is still reeling from the treatment Gav gave it in 3rd ed.

Offline NightMoor

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #53 on: July 1, 2012, 01:13:21 PM »
100% agreed about Banshees dropping in quality - the single biggest issue is that you cannot deliver them to the enemy effectively anymore, it has very little to do with the AP of their weapons. And Nesbitt has it best, it's more ideal nowadays to have your Farseer boosting shooting anyways.
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Offline Aoitora

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #54 on: July 1, 2012, 01:37:12 PM »
Agreed, I do think our Farseers will become top dogs. I'll be looking to run codex + divination mostly, 2 Runes of Warding on the table, improving Deny the Witch to their squad (remember warlocks and the shadowseer do this as well). Good luck using your powers! I have high hopes for this.

I've started writing up several lists, I still have my 2 primary lists from 5th but they'll be hurting a little. I got it so in my head that *the word Iri bleeped out of my first post regarding vehicles  :P) would be the death of mech that I went so far the other way that I didn't have much above strength 6.

I do wonder if guardian squads w/ Star cannons may make a resurgence. Geez they're expensive guns though.

I'm even excited to use rangers again.

So in short I'll be trying out 2 farseers, lots of dakka, not many/no vehicles.


Offline Erand

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #55 on: July 1, 2012, 02:01:11 PM »
I still think people are missing the point. When individual units get weaker (except terminators but good on them bring back 3+ on 2D6...) armies as a whole become more of the focus.

Use the terrain to your advantage, concentrate your forces and overpower a section of your opponents army or spread your faster army over the table to distract your opponent into splitting his up. Present too many options for chrages so that your opponent has to choose what to shoot at or sit back and pound him with fire. Yes you won't be able to out shoot static guard but that has always been the case, the point is they either have to wipe you out or move from their cover in order to claim objectives. The game isn't won when you type up your army list any more which is awesome.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2012, 02:03:20 PM by Erriond »

Offline Genghis

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #56 on: July 1, 2012, 05:15:53 PM »
Quote
As long as a vehicle is allowed to move that turn and does not shoot

Yes you can use them, But if you use 1 you cannot use the other. Since both require you to be able to shoot, and both stop you been able to shoot.

So you can "move+star engines" OR "move+flat out", But you cannot "Move + star engines + flat out" Or "move + flat out + star engines."

The 2 rules cancel As you cannot forfeit your chance to shoot twice.

Looking at the FAQ for Star Engines again, I think they do stack with Flat Out.  Star Engines need the vehicle to be capable of moving & not to have shot - or (dis)embark pax - that turn in order to use them.  Flat out happens instead of shooting & Star Engines require you not to have shot, which you won't have done if you go Flat Out.  The Star Engines aren't forfeiting shooting as such, they're something you can use if you haven't shot.
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Offline Halfpast_Yellow

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #57 on: July 1, 2012, 05:22:03 PM »
Played a couple of games so far.

The biggest competitive change for Eldar is Troops that can rapid-fire.

Because Tau and DE are Battle brothers, there is really no reason not to take two Firewarrior/DE Warrior units in your army. They score, you can cast Prescience on them, They are much better than Guardians and on the whole better than Dire Avengers.

Round out your Eldar Troop requirements with Rangers and/or Jetbikes.

DE allow you to take a Flyer as well.

I reckon Eldrad with full Divination all the way. The chance of rolling Malediction power is too good not to pass up on, and by my reading his third power may be one he has already used. At the very least, you're guaranteed to have the option of double-prescience.

Vehicles will fall by the wayside...Fire Dragons in Serpents with dual Shuricannons perhaps, but the rest footslogging. Walkers, Wraithlords, and Reapers all got a boost.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #58 on: July 1, 2012, 06:33:05 PM »
Quote
I reckon Eldrad with full Divination all the way.

Actually, I'm trying Eldrad with full Eldar powers along with a Jetbike Seer purchasing cheapest four powers and swapping them for Divination powers. The default power is awesome (better than guide) and all but one of them are good. None cost over 1 either...

Quote
Fire Dragons in Serpents with dual Shuricannons perhaps

I still think we will see some Brigtlances as there is going to still be AV14 on the table.

Quote
Because Tau and DE are Battle brothers, there is really no reason not to take two Firewarrior/DE Warrior units in your army

I'm honestly not looking forward to the weirdness that the allied rules are going to bring...lol
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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Eldar in 6th Edition
« Reply #59 on: July 1, 2012, 06:40:32 PM »

Wraithlord
Pro: Easier to gain cover, Fear, Smash, Hammer of wrath, Overwatch/Wall of Death
Cons: Krak grenades/melta bombs

I'd like to address this little issue... How is Smash a 'Pro' for Wraithlords? Half of the ability is wasted right from the onset because of the Wraithlords S characteristic anyway, so you are sacrificing attacks for rerolls. Using Smash, even when including Hammer of Wrath (which won't benefit from Smash anyway) leaves you just barely able to glance a tank to death, and only if you roll like a champ. It's totally useless against anything but Vehicles, and even then NOT using is probably going to inflict more reliable damage. In short, Smash is practically useless on a Wraithlord. I can see it being great for, say, Broods of Carnifex, but for us it's a major hit over the last editions rules for MC's.

The Fleet issue is, to me, not even remotely concerning. We are faster than average with Fleet, and everyone has received a less reliable Charge. Even then, because of Fleet, we're still better at charging than other armies. I don't see what the issue is, regardless of what the math-hammer says. Eldar are now, on average, faster than non-Eldar. That's the way it should be, doesn't matter if we're slower on the whole, because so is everyone else.

I do worry about Banshees though. The AP of a Power Sword means that Terminators are no longer a viable target for the girls, particularly when combined with their lower volume of attacks compared to Scorpions. The concern i've heard about the Executioner isn't an issue, because it clearly falls under the Unusual Power Weapon category, so the rules for Power Axes are irrelivent. Still, their going to cut holes in regular Power Armoured foes, as long as they can survive the Overwatch.

I also don't feel that you really say Witchblades got a substantial nerf... Armour Bane means that your max AP value is still 15, with your average being 10. Because you alwas hit the rear armour in CC, you're going to be regularly glancing vehicles to death, which of course means you never have to worry about explosions.
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