News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions  (Read 16124 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

  • The Badger on the Road | Staff Infection Officer | Debased Vassal Slayer | Title Barfly | XOXOXO Gossip Girl | Bent Over
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19053
  • Country: nz
  • From the Fourth Necromantic House
Re: Fluff on Yangtzeguo and it's Regiments
« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2007, 06:11:09 PM »
The danger is half the attraction. Considering the jaded experiences of the "wealthy" the excitement of the location is most of the deal.
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
Tact is for people who are too slow witted to be sarcastic.
Drink
Knights Tippler
Quote from: Surviving the World
If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

Offline Heretek

  • General Freyberg | Out, damn'd Grot! | Ork Boy
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5863
  • Country: nz
Re: Fluff on Yangtzeguo and it's Regiments
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2007, 06:13:20 PM »
Unless my memory is malfunctioning, both of the worlds I mentioned, Bonaventure and Gudrun, are out on the Western Fringe, near the Halo Stars. It's not exactly safe there, either.

EDIT: Beaten to it, but Dipso makes a good point. Rich kids like doing dangerous things.

Offline Wuxiong

  • Major, Best Painted Valkyrie
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 798
  • Country: au
  • Armies: Imperial Guard
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #182 on: September 11, 2007, 10:55:47 AM »
Hmmm, well either way, it is not really important mentioning Tourism in my fluff. I've deleted it anyway, you may think whatever you like. :)
___________________ ___________________ ______________

Made huge changes! Please take a look and please give comments and criticism.

Offline Talon Undecided

  • Full Bird Colonel; Old School Necron Hunter Adept; Best Painted Rough Riders
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2868
  • Country: 00
  • kweh!
  • Armies: Astra Militarum, Evil Blood Ravens, AdMech
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #183 on: September 11, 2007, 10:59:40 AM »
Gee, sounds and reads like a piece of propoganda. Which is good, which is good!

 ;D

Liking the look of it.
Imperial Guard Poster of the year '09!
Good golly that was ages ago.

Astra what now?

Offline Wuxiong

  • Major, Best Painted Valkyrie
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 798
  • Country: au
  • Armies: Imperial Guard
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #184 on: September 11, 2007, 11:35:42 AM »
Gee, sounds and reads like a piece of propoganda. Which is good, which is good!
...
...
...
"Sounds" like propaganda? ;)

It IS propaganda! The propaganda that speaks the truth. ;)

Offline evilmonkey

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 163
  • Country: 00
  • Guard 4 teh win
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #185 on: September 11, 2007, 06:10:24 PM »
Your fluff is ok, IMO you are still trying too hard to portray Tiananmen as almost a paradise.

As for 98+% of the population being literate I think that’s pretty ridiculous for an Imperial planet. I would suggest a social elite and a middle class of traders etc... Who are literate but the masses would probably not be. You talk about massive food production increases, who is working the land? Graduates from Tiananmen's colleges? Perhaps in our world but not in the Imperium. Why waste resources on an unnecessary education?

I mean Mainland China now only has a literacy rate of 90.9 and even Hong Kong only has a 93.5% rate. I would suggest figures more around the 40-50% mark.

I’m glad you've dropped the independent navy idea; you need huge dedicated forgeworld's for that. Perhaps you should write some fluff about the surrounding sector. Where are they getting all their equipment from? Perhaps a small scale FW in their system.

It IS propaganda! The propaganda that speaks the truth. ;)

If you were writing this as a fluffy propaganda piece that was a cynically positive description of Tiananmen by one of its leaders then it would read much better. As it is writing "The propaganda that speaks the truth" makes it a lesser read. (Especially in light of its obvious historical and modern real world parallels  ;) )

Offline Wuxiong

  • Major, Best Painted Valkyrie
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 798
  • Country: au
  • Armies: Imperial Guard
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #186 on: September 12, 2007, 05:25:46 AM »
Quote
If you were writing this as a fluffy propaganda piece that was a cynically positive description of Tiananmen by one of its leaders then it would read much better. As it is writing "The propaganda that speaks the truth" makes it a lesser read. (Especially in light of its obvious historical and modern real world parallels)
I was just joking. lol

Quote
You talk about massive food production increases, who is working the land? Graduates from Tiananmen's colleges? Perhaps in our world but not in the Imperium. Why waste resources on an unnecessary education?
Uhh, the workers are working on the land.

Quote
I mean Mainland China now only has a literacy rate of 90.9 and even Hong Kong only has a 93.5% rate. I would suggest figures more around the 40-50% mark.
40-50% will not do I'm afraid, but I see what you mean about this so I will lower it to 71.3% of total population. I won't bother for the teenaged and child population.

Quote
I’m glad you've dropped the independent navy idea; you need huge dedicated forgeworld's for that. Perhaps you should write some fluff about the surrounding sector. Where are they getting all their equipment from? Perhaps a small scale FW in their system.
I dropped the Independant Idea long ago. I could do Tiananmen's Sector, I am still constructing my fluff and could make fluff on the Sector Tiananmen is located in.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 06:18:13 AM by Red Guard »

Offline sojung

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • For the Motherland!
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #187 on: September 12, 2007, 06:50:53 AM »
Just a side note... literacy rate is really difficult to define in any clear basis... and on top of that, I think it's highly subjective to say that China's literacy rate is 'only' 90.9%. It's not easy trying to organise over 1.3 billion people into reading and writing programmes ... and plus party representatives do all the quill-pushing in the rural areas; and plus with introduction of new 'state languages' for both writing and speaking... I donno how reliable the data are in terms of defining what literacy rate in China is - basically if everyone speaks in 'old' 90's language, but the official language changes to 'x' and the literacy rate is determined by who can speak and write in the official language... then well ... there's gonna be considerable amount of interpretation of the data. Personally I think it's a bit too much of comparing apples and oranges.

In any case, jumping over to the 41st millenium, 71.3% sounds much more reasonable. 98.9% although pretty impressive, I guess it depends on population size, socio-economic base and the actual definition of literacy it self... like high gothic, low gothic or compounding of native languages with gothic to create a new language?

Details and details of details... just to ponder over. NOT AT ALL ON TOPIC IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT LOL

Still I enjoy participating in this thread.

sj

Offline Locarno

  • Ork Boy
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6488
  • Country: 00
  • Could I interest you in a small bribe?
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #188 on: September 12, 2007, 07:37:20 AM »
Comments:

Quote
Type: Mixed Agri-Civilised World
Population: 30,000,000,000

That is not an agri-world. It's not even vaguely an agri-world.
The Imperium couldn't give a monkey's what you grow if you don't export it - and if you have a population between 4 and 5 times that of contemporary Earth (which struggles) then either you're going to be growing food to feed your own population or the entire planetary surface is dedicated to soylens, kelp or similar low-grade high intensity agriculture and you've basically obliterated any level of natural ecosystem. Agri-world means major food exports on top of feeding the world's own population (which is normally small)

Quote
Food Supplies, Monetary, Military, Oil
Food supplies addressed above.

Monetary - so so. Money is, after all, merely a device to simplify trade. There has to be something physical to back it up, especially across interstellar distances.

Oil - read Promethium, the generic imperial term for 'fuel liquids' (which actually includes more than just what we think of as oil, such as synthetics, flammable silicon oils and methane ice).

Military, fair enough. A nice block of troops are always welcome, especially out on the edges of Imperial space.

Quote
Tiananmen imports many things from the rest of the Imperium.
Such as? Most civilized worlds are largely self-sufficient, niether importing or exporting anything except the tithe. You get worlds dependant on major imports when they have an 'unbalanced' economy - normally because their economy is centred around one element (like a genuine agriworld, or mining world, or...you get the idea)
Essentially, either say it's a borderline hive world and give up on growing food or massively scale back the population and claims of industry (which may be important to the planet but is irrelevant on a sector scale)

Quote
Considerable Space Fleet and Orbital Defences
You've already scrubbed the space fleet. 'Considerble' orbital defences is still rather a claim. As with an agri-world, you have to be rather special to be able to claim 'considerable' - which on an Imperial scale means you're approaching a fortress world (like Cadia, Nemesis Tessera, Vraks, etc, etc.). Any civilised world will have a decent belt of defence platforms and anti-orbital guns. But 'lots' stands out. To give you some numbers to plug in, an old bit of fluff from the 1st edition of 40k stated that 'standard' defences for a world was 1 ground based orbital defence (each one being about ten defence lasers or torp silos) battery per thousand kilometres of plantary radius - so contemporary earth, for instance, would rate about sixty defence lasers - plus maybe another dozen or so protecting specific installations (e.g. governor's palace, PDF hq, planetary capital city).
These defences are likely to be lower in Tiananmen's case as they've recently been blown to bits - the Imperial Fleet having to fight its way through them as well as the Air Caste fleet.

Quote
a well trained and extremely large PDF numbering 12,000 Divisions

Extremely large.
Taking into account the description later, each division consists of
Red Guards: 20,000 infantry

Mechanised Red Guards: 15,000 mechanised infantry plus 3,600 chimera crew (2 per vehicle) - total 18,600

Battlemasters: 10,000 leman russ crew (between 4 and 6 per tank depending on sponson fit), 4,000 chimera crew, 3,000 artilllery vehicle crew (about 3 per basilisk/griffon/manticore depending on type), and 4,000 scout vehicle crew (2 per salamander) - total 21,000

That's a grand total of 59,600 red guards per combined-arms division, not counting logistics corps, adeptus mechanicus and adeptus ministorum, commissariat, drill sergeants, general staff and other rear-echeloners.

Given that there are 12,000 divisions in the PDF, and a further 8,000 divisions serving off-world (or an equivalent number of regimental formations - expect them to get broken up over time as the guard forms and re-forms to re-organise around casualties) that's 20,000 divisions, or 1,192,000,000 front line troops under arms.

That's one in thirty of the population, or about 4% spends his days getting shot at. The actual figure would be much, much higher - the Imperial Guard has a pretty big divisional wedge, especially in an army that's 2/3 mech or armoured.

For comparison, modern China (for instance) has about 3 million standing troops in a billion, or less than a tenth of that (0.3%). Even if you add in the million or so reservists and 15 million militia (who are not going to be lavishly equipped mechanised/armoured formations) you only get a grand total of 18.8 million, or about 1.5%.

4% militarisation is equivalent to North Korea - a country so heavily militarised that any semblence of an economy is basically dependant on foreign material support.

To put it another way, half the number of Red Guard - at least (I'd say reduce by three or even four is more likely) - if you want a thriving economic world as well as just a fortress. If reigning in the population, cut troops appropriately as well.

Quote
Tiananmen is a beautiful world. Tiananmen has four largest Archipelagos, the biggest of which is located in the middle of the planet. The other three archipelagos are located West, North-East and South-East of the world. There are no deserts or arid areas on Tiananmen, the north and the middle regions of Tiananmen are temperate while the southern regions are tropical. There are many mountain ranges in the north and some in the middle and southern regions. The northern regions enjoy beautiful winters.
No uninhabitable regions at all? Unusual, but - I suppose - possible.
Bear in mind that the 'south' will match the 'north' - unless it's only south with respect to a 'central' continent, not equally far south of the equator.

Note that unless you mean 'continent' rather than 'archipelago' you're not using much of the planetary surface, so 30 billion people goes well out of the window unless you want underwater hive cities.

Quote
The Economy of Tiananmen is stable, strong and is at a very tall height.
Last phrase unneccesary and non-sensical - if it's stable and strong, that's all you need to say.

Quote
Food Production is extremely high and ever rising
So it's not 'stable' then. Stable means virtually no change, good or bad.

Quote
Tiananmen has a reputation of being a low-cost manufacturer
Producing what? Bear in mind that something has to be extremely valuable (to someone) to justify the cost of interstellar shipping. And again, you have to be producing a shedload of stuff to meet the needs of half a billion troops (assuming the Departmento Munitorium takes care of the Guard Regiments) and 29 billion other people and exporting things. It's not possible to do this and be an agri-world at the same time.

Quote
Tiananmen has large Oil Reserves, thus there is much oil rigging in the tropical parts of Tiananmen.

That's fair enough - promethium is valuable enough to the Imperium that it'll go after it wherever it crops up, so if it's availible in quantity on an inhabable, populated world they'll turn the appropriate region into a geological pincushion to extract it. Once again, you're talking about supporting half a billion troops, 29 billion other people, and the planet's industry and exporting the stuff. That's a lot of oil rigs (and supporting industry) and basically eliminates a lot of the tropical region for food production or living space.....

Quote
The Education of Tiananmen is great. There are a great many numbers of Primary Schools, Secondary Schools, Universities and Colleges, these Schools and education facilities follow a public education program.

Fair enough, if it's a rich world. Socialist nations tend to have very good base-level education, because it's one of the problems that's easist to attack.

Quote
About 99.7% of Tiananmen's total population is Literate
As noted, unlikely. If you're looking at an industrial hive world, or a subsector capital, then 95% is possible. The 70% you've suggested sounds about right if the industry is centred around agriculture and manual labour-heavy tasks.

Quote
99.8% of Tiananmen's child and teenaged population is currently in schools and universities.

Quote
Uhh, the workers are working on the land.
School education, maybe. Nowhere near 99.8% would go on to university - as noted, you wouldn't get university graduates (given the cost of such) working in a field or as a low-grade scrubber on a promethium rig. Or for that matter as a Red Guard squaddie. If the economy is stable the provision of higher education will have evolved to match the demand.
Evilmonkey's point was that you're not noting what percentage of school leavers get higher education (which is pretty limited by comparison).

Quote
The Culture of Tiananmen is old and enormous and stretches back even before the Imperium of Man
No, it doesn't (well, maybe a hundred years or so):
Quote
Tiananmen was colonised during the Great Crusade

Quote
more modernised than other Traditional Chinese Cultures, though the Tiananmen Culture now does preserve the Traditional Chinese Culture.
'Elements of' probably needs adding in here. It can't be a completely traditional Chinese Culture because its a heavily industrialised world.

Quote
The Tiananmenren do not sing players and hyms of the Emperor
Well - some sort of classical spiritual activity is to be expected, even if it's just preachers exhorting the masses to follow the teachings of the various Saints of the Imperium.

Otherwise a ship turns up with =][= on its side and the planet goes whumpfff...


Quote
they have the Emperor's quotes
Where did they get them from? I should point out that virtually no-one in the Imperium actually has a record of anything actually said by the Emperor, any more than they have an actual image (rather than 'best guess' devotional artwork). I know that you're trying for Mao's 'little red book' but a book of prayers/inspirational sayings is possible, just not quotes from the Emperor himself.

Quote
it was a beautiful world to the Imperium and they ordered a colonisation process on Tiananmen.
Beautiful is probably the wrong word. The Imperium couldn't care less about a world's beauty - either it was valuable (in which case it's often over-exploited to the point of environmental breakdown) or not.

Quote
During the Horus Heresy, Tiananmen provided food supplies to those armies Loyal to the Emperor.
And troops. Everywhere had troops demanded of them.
If it's on the far side of the galaxy, it probably didn't achieve that much - as with Calgar's crusade forces, it would be so long before they got back to the main battlefronts that everything was by and large decided. Their troops (as with the ultramarines and fists) might well have played a part in the scouring, though.

Quote
The Age of Apostasy had a horrible effect on Tiananmen.

Not unlike everywhere else, then.

Quote
Vandire seized possessions and food from the people of Tiananmen and raised their taxes with no apparent reason.
Vandire himself certainly didn't. He's on the other side of the galaxy on Terra and - being High Lord - couldn't care less about the fate of one planet. The planetary governor, or lord-governor subsector, or Sector government might.

Quote
But the 1st Tiananmen Regiment was founded shortly before the Age of Apostasy, thus the Tiananmenren fought against Vandire.

1 regiment? That's one Imperial guard regiment in the midst of the second biggest war the Imperium has ever seen. Doesn't register.
They might have fought some (locally) famous actions, but they most certainly weren't involved in any of the main events because they happened so damned far away.

Quote
Although the Tiananmenren supported Sebastian Thor, Vandire never got round to declaring exterminatus on Tiananmen, as he was after Sebastian himself.

Again, Vandire probably wouldn't have even been bothered about matters concerning one world - his minions had far more important things to tell him about. He basically issued a general order of 'burn anyone who opposes me'. Those elements of the navy loyal to him either refused to carry out the action or never got the chance (more than possible) - or else there were no Vandire loyalists in the region - but then they would probably never have got involved in the war in the first place as there's no-one to have been oppressing them.

Quote
Tiananmen supported the Damocles Gulf Crusade and many Tiananmen Regiments joined the Crusade.

You make it sound as if there was a choice. The Departmento Munitorium announces that there is a crusade being mounted, and tells you that one quarter of the Red Guard divisions are being shanghied for distant worlds and exciting opportunities to get killed. You can like it, or you can be burned as traitors. Your choice.

Quote
After the Crusade was over, Tiananmen was getting more concerned with the Tyranid threat.
Again, wording could use a bit of work - the re-emenrgence of the 'nids is the reason the crusade was called off.

Quote
Revisionist Chen

This title appears with no particular reason. What is it that he is supposedly rewriting?


Quote
the only problem facing Tiananmen now
Aside from an encroaching hive fleet and the possibility that the tau might try to annexe Tiananmen again - with the Fire caste landing in force this time rather than using a stooge governor as a cat's-paw....

Quote
These remnants of Tau have kroot on their side but no vespids
As a point to note - many tau cadres include auxillia forces, but if being deployed as a force to back up a seceding Imperial governor, you're trying to make a best impression. If you want to convince the world's population that the Tau Empire is really cute and cuddly, then if it was me I'd say introducing them to the aggressive, cannibalistic kroot is probably a bad idea. On the other hand, if you want a likely culprit for 'atrocities' beyond the tau going mildly loony in the wake of the Aun being killed, kroot are a good candidate.

Quote
These Tau have no vehicles and are not capable of creating vehicles, but they are capable of creating their own small arms.
Tau small arms? Them's some pretty high-tech hardware for guys in caves in the mountains. If they (and the surviving Chen-ists) are using human hardware, maybe. But not tau hardware.

Quote
these Tau create insurgency on Tiananmen, but this is contained and Tau insurgency is considered to be only incompetent terrorism.
The tau are many things, but are rarely incompetent. Small-scale, maybe - but not incompetent. It's also likely that the Tau Empire would try and support this as best it could - especially since there are its own people still stuck on the ground.

Quote
The Tiananmen Regiments fought against the Tyranids, they were less successful than they were in the Damocles Gulf Crusade and the Age of Apostasy, but they did win many victories regardless. After the 1st Tyrannic War, the Tiananmen Regiments were sent to war zones again.
Point of history: The first tyrannic war ran from the destruction of Tyran to the assault on Macragge. It predates the Damocles crusade by several centuries. The Crusade was called off after the appearance of another hive fleet, beginning a second tyrannic war which is still going on.

Point of background - being anything less than sucessful against the tyranid swarm generally means extermination.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 08:39:13 AM by Locarno »
Stories to read....
Songs of Earth
The Will to Survive Series

Tervigon Army List:
Games Played: 35
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2685

Offline sojung

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • For the Motherland!
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #189 on: September 12, 2007, 08:23:46 AM »
@ Locarno - beautifully analysed.

Bravo

sj

Offline Wuxiong

  • Major, Best Painted Valkyrie
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 798
  • Country: au
  • Armies: Imperial Guard
Re: Tiananmen, the World and it's Divisions
« Reply #190 on: September 13, 2007, 11:38:23 AM »
It took me a while to read through that. Anyway like I said, my fluff is still being constructed and there is still many flaws inside it.

Quote
You've already scrubbed the space fleet. 'Considerble' orbital defences is still rather a claim.
I meant an Imperial Navy Fleet, but I'll drop that idea.

Again I'll be making major changes. For now I'll only write and plan things on paper, when the changes are done, then I'll post the changes up in this thread.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 04:54:04 AM by People's Guard »

 


Powered by EzPortal